The False Security of Eternal Security

[Mitspa]

Deborah13,



This is a typcial prooftext of eternal securitists but the context is not even referencing believers.

What? must be "unbelievers":toofunny

Christ came to save all those who reject salvation?2



Gal 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

"It is difficult to make men understand that the salvation of the gospel is not by works but entirely by grace, that it is not presented to men as the reward of their own endeavors, but is given to them freely upon their accepting it by an act of simple faith or trust in Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

the salvation to which you are refering is not entirely by grace. When scripture speaks of salvation that Christ wrought, or what Christ accomplished on the Cross was for all men, for the world. It is why He is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14. These words have meaning.

All men were given the Gift of salvation, salvation from death. Christ freed all mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

the salvation to which you refer is our personal, individual salvation which is by and through faith. It entails grace as well, but also requires the cooperation of man himself.

You, as any other human being will get this gift whether you believe or you don't. but by beleiving that Christ actually did save you from death justifies you. It puts you into a relationship with Him through which you will be saved if one endures. Simply being justified does not save a person. It is entrance into His Kingdom and then it becomes a matter of being conformed to His Image, of growing, of maturing of being faithful, and enduring to the end in order to inherit eternity with Him, rather than apart from Him.

Does it take effort and work. Absolutely, which is why Paul admonishes us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Which is why James states that faith alone is dead, just as works alone are dead. It takes both, works through faith. They are an inseparable tandem.

 

[Danus]

Danus,



the salvation to which you are refering is not entirely by grace. When scripture speaks of salvation that Christ wrought, or what Christ accomplished on the Cross was for all men, for the world. It is why He is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14. These words have meaning.

All men were given the Gift of salvation, salvation from death. Christ freed all mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

the salvation to which you refer is our personal, individual salvation which is by and through faith. It entails grace as well, but also requires the cooperation of man himself.

You, as any other human being will get this gift whether you believe or you don't. but by beleiving that Christ actually did save you from death justifies you. It puts you into a relationship with Him through which you will be saved if one endures. Simply being justified does not save a person. It is entrance into His Kingdom and then it becomes a matter of being conformed to His Image, of growing, of maturing of being faithful, and enduring to the end in order to inherit eternity with Him, rather than apart from Him.

Does it take effort and work. Absolutely, which is why Paul admonishes us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Which is why James states that faith alone is dead, just as works alone are dead. It takes both, works through faith. They are an inseparable tandem.

I appreciate your honesty, but what you have here is complete heresy. It speaks of universal reconciliation then it trails off into something else that makes no sense to UR.

There is a strict rule on UR in this section.

Concerning Universal Reconciliation

Or Universal Salvation, as some call it.

In the past, we have had nothing but trouble discussing this "doctrine". Pages upon pages of arguments and insults that amounted to banning this discussion... and some members. We used to have a warning here that UR debate was banned, but it got lost in a database restore. Now it's back!

So, until people can debate this in a civil manner, the moratorium on this topic is still in place.

I'm going to leave what you have here for now and we'll see where it goes, but if it get's out of hand we'l need to do something else.

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

Christ came to save all those who reject salvation?

actually that is correct. YOu could not even reject His offer of communion for eternity, unless Christ first restored life to the world. YOu were already condemned to death, dust to dust, through Adam.

If God was going to accomplish His plan for His created order, then God needed to save that creation from death first. It would be absurd that God would simply treat a symtom rather than the cause.

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

I appreciate your honesty, but what you have here is complete heresy. It speaks of universal reconciliation then it trails off into something else that makes no sense to UR.

Obviously it is a heresy to your personal doctrine. However it is one of the two distinquishing marks of historical Christianity. The Incarnation of Christ is a hallmark doctrine and has been a scriptural treaching from the beginning. In the early Church it was called recapitulation rather than reconciliation. Scripture calls it reconciliation.

Such texts as II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18, Rom 11:32, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, all clearly attest to the universal work of Christ on the cross. Then you have such texts as John 4:42 and I John 4:14. even a text such as Acts 24:15 or Rev 20:12-13 clearly shows that Christ will raise all the dead, attesting to His Incarnation and resurrection which is given in Heb 2:12-16.

There is a strict rule on UR in this section.

It is unfortunate that you do not really understand scripture. Universal reconciliation does not mean, has never meant, Universal salvation, which by the way was also condemned by the Church almost 1700 years ago.

Concerning Universal Reconciliation
Or Universal Salvation, as some call it.

Two vastly different concepts. YOu should maybe study each so you won't be ignorant any longer on these terms. Obviously you do not hold to the Incarnation either, since you would have understood the difference.

 

[Danus]

Danus,


Obviously it is a heresy to your personal doctrine. However it is one of the two distinquishing marks of historical Christianity. The Incarnation of Christ is a hallmark doctrine and has been a scriptural treaching from the beginning. In the early Church it was called recapitulation rather than reconciliation. Scripture calls it reconciliation.

Such texts as II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18, Rom 11:32, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, all clearly attest to the universal work of Christ on the cross. Then you have such texts as John 4:42 and I John 4:14. even a text such as Acts 24:15 or Rev 20:12-13 clearly shows that Christ will raise all the dead, attesting to His Incarnation and resurrection which is given in Heb 2:12-16.

It is unfortunate that you do not really understand scripture. Universal reconciliation does not mean, has never meant, Universal salvation, which by the way was also condemned by the Church almost 1700 years ago.

Two vastly different concepts. YOu should maybe study each so you won't be ignorant any longer on these terms. Obviously you do not hold to the Incarnation either, since you would have understood the difference.

Let me remind you of your words used.

All men were given the Gift of salvation, salvation from death. Christ freed all mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

That's your quote. That's Universal Salvation, and it's not allowed in here. OK?
If you want to discuss Infused righteousness, which you alluded to then go ahead. You did fine with that.

You said of being saved......

Does it take effort and work. Absolutely, which is why Paul admonishes us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Which is why James states that faith alone is dead, just as works alone are dead. It takes both, works through faith. They are an inseparable tandem.

That is infused righteousness. A belief that one works with God to become righteous, and thus saved from condemnation. You can discuss this as your position. You can't logically hold both Universal-ism and infused righteousness, but you can't discuss Universal Salvation in here, because we don't allow it.

 

[BornAgain]

You ask for it. You Put down your own will. Your own attempts to believe for the sake of believing, and ask God for his will for you. He gives us the faith we need, and that moment begins a relationship with the one who truly Loves us as we are, who truly knows us as we are, who made us. Through Him we are saved, and changed by his will.

We have to work for it. I know you believe in the writings of Charles Spurgeon and have bolstered that John Calvin makes some good arguments but faith requires work...I was taught as a child about God and believed it because I heard. If nobody ever taught you anything, how would you get faith? Did you just wake up one day and had faith. It requires a work. Everybody thinks everything is a gift. If that were the case then we would all go to heaven and wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[BornAgain]

"It is difficult to make men understand that the salvation of the gospel is not by works but entirely by grace, that it is not presented to men as the reward of their own endeavors, but is given to them freely upon their accepting it by an act of simple faith or trust in Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

I did answer. When I said "ask", I'm alluding to prayer. That's what I did when I received faith. That's when I first felt the spirit of God, and was able to believe.

Faith is no doubt essential to salvation. As Charles Spurgeon said in the quote above, salvation is NOT some sort of reward given to man because of something he does to be good. That includes his own desire to believe if in fact he is only believing in believing by his own will to believe. That's not real faith; that's just trying to have faith.

But trying to have self faith, trying to muster it up in ones self, or believing by ones own will to believe for the sake of believing, is nothing but a work. It's just an effort. It is that type of thing that leads to doubt. no one who does that can possibly know they are saved, because they have yet to experience the grace God offers though the faith he provides them.

When people read the bible in bits and pieces they will only ever have a bits and pieces understanding of it. Sure, Romans 10:17 (NIV) 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. This one verse is very popular to use and just stop right there with nothing more than to quote this one verse. But, Paul makes a much BIGGER point after this verse. READ MORE TO UNDERSTAND.

18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.â€
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.â€
20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.â€
21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.

Romans 11 picks it up; 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me� 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.†5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.

Faith is more than just hearing, and hearing is more than just sounds. To have faith one has to give up trying to have that on their own and pray to God for salvation. When people read the bible in bits and pieces they will only ever have a bits and pieces understanding of it.

Fact is many people have heard the word of God. The word of God has been preached just about everywhere and yet many who have heard do not have the faith to believe it, and many who desire it are still trying to have it on their own, by their own effort to have faith instead of turning to God for it.

Here is where you contradict yourself...you said faith is a gift quoting Charles Spurgeon but then you said you asked for it. That is a work. If you don't ask for something you don't get it. When people read man made doctrine in bits and pieces that is where the bible gets twisted. You try to blend the writings of men with the bible, a perfect book to teach us everything we need to know. If we obey.

 

[BornAgain]

absolutely not.

Why would God become a respector of persons when He Himself created man in His Image. His purpose was for man to be in an eternal union of communion with Him.

God not only created all men, but then when man lost life, and eternal existance, Christ came as man to save all men, so that each could do what God had planned in the first place, to freely work with Him. Or not.

I didn't think so but was trying to make a point there...thank you.

 

[heymikey80]

Such texts as II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18, Rom 11:32, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, all clearly attest to the universal work of Christ on the cross.

At best some attest to a universal work of Christ on the Cross. That universal work is Lordship over the whole world, where "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Pp 2:10-11

But they don't indicate Christ is universally reconciling each person.

Unfortunately, in lists numerous concepts get cross-circuited. It's like the joke where "Judas sold Jesus for .. silver." "Go ye and do likewise." "And what you do, do quickly." So we should probably look at these verses and see what they say.

2 Cor 5:19 "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them" This actually refers to the world in general, it's not even limited to humanity. It's not everything in the world that gets saved. But the world survives, by God's grace.

Rom 5:18 "So, then, as through one offence to all men to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' to all men to justification of life" (YLT) This is in a passage where there are two groups of people -- those "in Adam" and those "in Christ" -- as in Rom 5:15: "if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;" The parallel Paul is drawing is to two groups of man -- the group "in Adam", and the group "in Christ".

Rom 11:32 "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." Here it's not even mentioned whether we're talking about individuals or groups of people -- in which case "all groups", that is all nations are within the reach of God's mercy in Jesus. Even so, the verse says God may show mercy -- not that God does show mercy on all.

1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." The prepositions "in Adam" and "in Christ" modify "all", not "made alive". The verse is essentially saying that in parallel, a child of Adam dies, and a child of Christ is made alive.

John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." Two verses earlier defines what Jesus means: "All that the Father gives me will come to me" So it's not everyone. In fact Jesus states it outright -- it's the people who come to Jesus that Jesus means by those "he has given me".

 

[heymikey80]

Here is where you contradict yourself...you said faith is a gift quoting Charles Spurgeon but then you said you asked for it. That is a work. If you don't ask for something you don't get it. When people read man made doctrine in bits and pieces that is where the bible gets twisted. You try to blend the writings of men with the bible, a perfect book to teach us everything we need to know. If we obey.

I'm intrigued by this idea of not getting something you don't ask for. Where is that, when it comes to the Israelites becoming a nation? It sounded to me like most liked the leeks and garlic of Egypt.

Still, even asking comes from the Spirit of God changing hearts. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

And asking where something comes from is going to have a variety of mutually consistent answers. There's not one answer.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

I'm sure that's what they're telling you E so that they can constantly sacrifice Christ over and over and over and over and over and over and over..

Sounds like a license to sin imo.. don't worry about a thing, we'll even provide for you to indulge in your flesh.. and come Sunday morn we'll just sacrifice Christ again..

I've had enough of this conversation.. all you're interested in imo is your catholic dogma.

First, I am not Catholic.

Secondly, you were given a explanation of Heb 6 in reply #5.

Third, you continue to avoid in telling us how the prodigal could be alive again, how could be Simon repent if repentance is impossible?

 

[BornAgain]

I'm intrigued by this idea of not getting something you don't ask for. Where is that, when it comes to the Israelites becoming a nation? It sounded to me like most liked the leeks and garlic of Egypt.

Still, even asking comes from the Spirit of God changing hearts. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

And asking where something comes from is going to have a variety of mutually consistent answers. There's not one answer.

I was responding to Danus when he said "we just get faith." How do you get faith?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

First, I am not Catholic.

Good for you, what are you then, Orthodox..? Boston Church of Christ ?

Secondly, you were given a explanation of Heb 6 in reply #5.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion, I don't agree with it and told you so.

Third, you continue to avoid in telling us how the prodigal could be alive again, how could be Simon repent if repentance is impossible?

I also told you that.. that there is a world of difference between being alive once in the first Adam, as compared to being alive in Christ, the Last Adam.

I've mentioned another reason why we can't be saved more than once.. and that's because we can only die twice.. are you going to explain that away also..? Furthermore, we are DEAD and crucified with Christ.. that's a simple biblical fact which you will also probably ignore..

 

[BornAgain]

...and it's a spiritual entity, not an earthly organization. Acts 20 speaks of local elders in the congregation at Ephesus being raised directly by the Holy Ghost.

It is definately an earthly organization.. Here "my church" means the assembly or people who have been called out of the world by the gospel of Christ.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
Matt 16:18 (KJV)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

It depends how this very real example is understood.

You could interpret Simon's "belief" as a recognition of the fact that Philip's power was real. If that's all that's meant, then Simon's belief was not to salvation in the first place.

Or you could interpret Simon's belief as real, and that he truly relied on Christ Jesus. In that case Simon's thought was that the spiritual world worked much as his sorcery did, which was itself a sinful thing, subject to death. However, Peter's condemnation did not result in Simon's immediate death, leading to the conclusion that he was immediately repentant of his sin.


Physical death is one thing; but spiritual death is another. The indications to me are that either would be legitimate to consider for Simon; but the fact that Simon didn't die right then & there leads me to conclude that Simon is a believer.

To think Simon the Sorcerer lost his salvation, repented, and then returns to Christianity, that just doesn't seem tenable to me. If we lost our salvation every time we sinned, no one could give us statements of assurance similar to Romans 8:30-39

um, the "falls away" is aorist, generally either past or any action that qualifies. As it's the condition of not being restored, it would be difficult to assert what you're asserting for this passage.

The context in Acts 8 says Simon believed and was baptized, Acts 8:13 and therefore would be in a saved position per Jesus' own words of Mark 16:16.

First, Luke, an inspired apostle, said Simon believed. To say Simon did not really believe is to deny Luke's own record in saying Simon believed and Luke did not lie about this matter.

Secondly Luke states "Then Simon himself believed also:..." The "also" indicates that Simon's belief was no different than the belief of the people of Samaria. So if one is to think Simon did not believe then consistency would dictate to think the Samaritans did not believe either.

Third, after Simon committed the sin of trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, Peter said to him "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

Simon was in a state where he was perishing. The verb perish is present tense and when Peter said these words to Simon, Simon was not in a present state of being phyiscally dead, so Peter was referring to his present spiritual condition.

Perish is from the Greek apōleia and according to Strong's it means:

1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Apōleia is also translated destruction or perdition in Matt 7:13 Rom 9:22 Phil 3:19 1 Tim 6:9 2 Pet 2:1 2 Pet 3:16 where it refers to being lost.

Simon was commanded to repent of his wickedness.

1) to suggest Simon did not lose his salvation is to suggest the wicked along with thier wickedness can be saved

2) the purpose of repenting is salvation. In Lk 13;3,5 jesus said to repent or perish and Simon was in a present tense state where he was perishing and would remain in that state till he repented.

3) a Christian is not lost everytime he sins as long as he continues to walk in the light, Christ's blood continues to wash away ALL sins, 1 Jn 1:7 . If one sins and continues in that sin and does not repent as Simon, he becomes lost until he does repent and begins to walk in the light once again.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I started making a few notes this morning at the office when I first read this thread. I'm glad to see it's grown as much as it has.

I'd like to address the title; "The False Security of Eternal Security." False?


It's interesting to me how some don't see their salvation as much. It's as if it's hardly there, if at all, or the power of God. I think if anyone feels they are not saved, or not sure, or might be, but don't know, or feel they've lost it; They should question their salvation. Question it hard.

I have to wonder what type of faith it is that does not believe, or can't believe, in what God says, or the promises he's made. Not picking on anyone, Not pointing fingers. Doubt is an issue. I understand that.

Personally, I would not call that faith at all. I would not even call that a small faith, because I started with a small faith. I think all anyone needs is a small faith. In fact, Christ eluded to this several times. In Matthew 17:20; (NIV) 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€. Notice how Christ points out a small faith then talks about having a small faith. he's pointing out a real small faith vs a man made small faith.

We see it again in Luke 17:6; (NIV); 6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you."

I have never literally dug up a stump, or moved a mound of dirt with my faith, but that's OK, because I totally get what Jesus means by faith as small as a mustard seed. He said this to illustrate the power that faith from God has in us. I understand that. I understand that because I understand my faith. I understand what it was to have none, and how powerful and irresistible it is to have just that little bit.

When I was a kid forced to attend UMYF camp (United Methodist Youth Fellowship), our councilors would lead everyone in singing this familiar song; "It only takes a spark", .......... to get a fire going." Anyone remember that one? ugg. Being kids, we'd change the words sometimes. However, I look back on that, and the moment I received my faith, I completely understood what that song meant. I love that song. It's true, and what a perfect illustration of what faith is. It is like a spark that gets a fire going.

I knew in a moment that my own salvation is a done deal, and that there was no turning back. That state of saved, that moment of understanding and revelation, is irresistible and there is no going back. I knew it based on the known nature of man, which I clearly see in myself, and the clear promises of God that are replete throughout the bible.

Although the Calvin view of eternal security is "described " in the last letter of the TULIP acronym, the understanding of eternal security is emanated throughout the full understanding of faith, grace, mercy and such.

The P in TULIP stands for the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. In line with the totality of the reformed theology and its focus on God’s sovereign actions, this would perhaps be better entitled Perseverance of the Lord since it is He who keeps the believer until their moment of glory. A believer may backslide and sin but this view states that the believer cannot fall away completely from grace of God, and they will persevere until the end and be saved.

Eternal security in Calvin’s theology must be understood in the context of the entire framework, as all of the points are logically connected. The elect (the only humans who God chooses to redeem) will be the recipients of the persevering power introduced by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. These believers will be kept in the power of the Spirit and are eternally secure. Calvin words it this way:

"God, who is rich in mercy, from his immutable purpose of election, does not wholly take away his Holy Spirit from his own, even in lamentable falls; nor does he so permit them to glide down that they should fall from the grace of adoption and the state of justification; or commit the “sin unto death,†or against the Holy Spirit; that, being deserted by him, they should cast themselves headlong into eternal destruction. So that not by their own merits or strength, but by the gratuitous mercy of God, they obtain it, that they neither totally fall from faith and grace, nor finally continue in their paths and perish."

We can call this Calvin if you guys want, but this is a principal of the good news. This is biblical truth and many scriptures speak to the eternal salvation of the believer, those with real faith from God, not from themselves.

read it for yourselves, The unbroken chain of salvation found in Romans 8:29-39. John 10:27-29. Romans 8:38-39. Ephesians 1:3-14. 1 Peter 1:3-5, Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 7:25, ....when we are saved, we are given faith to know believe and to know we are saved, and anyone who ask God with an open heart can know they are saved, be saved, and have salvation, and the security that that will never be taken away. It is life changing.

Anyone trying to improve themselves through Christianity, well good luck to you, but if you are seeking a new you in God, a you purchased by Christ, a real relationship with the one who loves you, that can easily be had simply bu giving up your efforts and asking for the faith in Christ we are to have to be saved.

It is not what you are doing, or have done. It is about what God can do, is doing and have done for you.

You're then suggesting that a Christian can quit hearing and following Christ, Jn 10:27 quit coming to Christ, Jn 6:37 yet still be saved.....which is not possible at all.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

John 6:39 - "And this is my Father's will which has sent me, that of ALL that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day."

Jesus is saying that it is the Father's will that Jesus will lose nothing (categorically denies the thought of the thing, - as a separation from something with which there has been a close relation, - pronoun is himself, herself, itself, he, she, it)

Young's for "nothing" three separate words together in the Greek 3361, 1537, 846
Thayer's Lexicon (categorically denies....she, it)

Luke15:4-6 "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? ...."

To me this does not say that the sheep finds his way back to the shepard. The shepard goes and finds his sheep. I know a little about sheep and have herded sheep. Believe me sheep are too, I hate to say stupid but it's true, to find their way back to the flock. They will wonder off not even knowing the danger they may be in. You go and find your sheep before a bear or lion gets them.
I believe our Lord keeps us. The Holy Spirit finds a way to bring a lost one back to the fold.

This is just one of the mysteries of His amazing grace and love He has for us. We cannot comprehend this kind of love.

If we have to worry about our salvation and not be secure in the Lord, how is this any different than the old covenant? No
The Good News of Calvery is truly Good News.

Jn 17:13 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

In this context of Jn 17 Judas was one God gave to Jesus whom Jesus is said to have kept. Jesus could not say "none of them is lost, but the son of perdition" unless He first had Judas and kept him.

Look at this way, I give you 12 different colored pencils to keep in your hand. Later I ask for those pencils back and you tell me "here are the pencils I have kept and none of them is lost but for the red one." You could not say that unless you first had and kept the red one.

 

[Mitspa]

You're then suggesting that a Christian can quit hearing and following Christ, Jn 10:27 quit coming to Christ, Jn 6:37 yet still be saved.....which is not possible at all.

I read his post, and did not hear him say that a Christain is to be disobedient? Have you ever failed to obey the Lord?



1Jn 1:8



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: Saved ONCE...

The context in Acts 8 says Simon believed and was baptized, Acts 8:13 and therefore would be in a saved position per Jesus' own words of Mark 16:16.

So all those people who believed Jesus "for a time" according to Jesus, are saved. I don't agree.

First, Luke, an inspired apostle, said Simon believed. To say Simon did not really believe is to deny Luke's own record in saying Simon believed and Luke did not lie about this matter.

Jesus said those on shallow soil "believed". To express it this way is to demand that anything falling under the Greek word "believed" would result in salvation: something I'm not prepared to do.

Secondly Luke states "Then Simon himself believed also:..." The "also" indicates that Simon's belief was no different than the belief of the people of Samaria. So if one is to think Simon did not believe then consistency would dictate to think the Samaritans did not believe either.

No, "kai" doesn't indicate much. But even granting that on other grounds, I still don't see the point.

Third, after Simon committed the sin of trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, Peter said to him "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

Simon was in a state where he was perishing. The verb perish is present tense and when Peter said these words to Simon, Simon was not in a present state of being phyiscally dead, so Peter was referring to his present spiritual condition.

"May your money perish with you"? Look, it's in the form of a curse, "perish" isn't even the verb, it's just translated that way. "may be into destruction" is the most wooden form of this. It's similar to the English "Away with you and your money into ruin."

Simon was commanded to repent of his wickedness.

1) to suggest Simon did not lose his salvation is to suggest the wicked along with thier wickedness can be saved

The suggestion is that people with serious sin shall indeed be saved. No one does good, not even one.

2) the purpose of repenting is salvation. In Lk 13;3,5 jesus said to repent or perish and Simon was in a present tense state where he was perishing and would remain in that state till he repented.

No. The purpose of repentance is change. It's not salvation, otherwise you're dead, because you haven't repented of everything you need to.

Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. Ps 19:12

3) a Christian is not lost everytime he sins as long as he continues to walk in the light, Christ's blood continues to wash away ALL sins, 1 Jn 1:7 .

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. John 3:20

If one sins and continues in that sin and does not repent as Simon, he becomes lost until he does repent and begins to walk in the light once again.

Find a verse where "lost" is used in this context. I know lots of "lost" verses, but not one referring to this constant lost & foundness.