The False vs True Gift Of Tongues

[Carry_Your_Name]

First, there is nothing in the passage to suggest they spoke in their native tongue(s). Verse 6 clearly states "they began speaking in tongues," which, going back to my original point, is only ever defined as a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a language unknown to the speaker.

How would Luke know they "prophesied" if they were speaking in gibberish, incomprehensive to both the audience and themselves? Real gift of tongue is not about the utterance itself, but the CONTENTS of that utterance. Back to your original point, the crowd at Pentecost were "speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God," that's bearing testimony; then Peter prophesied about the "latter rain", the pouring of the Holy Spirit, we see that in Rev. 11, the empowerment of the Two Witnesses. To adjudicate whether an utterance is from God or the devil, here is the rule of thumb: a reality check.

If you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:21-22)

Second, it wasn't immediately after they were baptized, but rather "when Paul had laid his hands on them," not that that really matters; it just doesn't support your assertion.

That was the case when John baptized Jesus, nonetheless.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is what took place in the second chapter of Acts , they that were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke and knew not what they said but those who understood and spoke the languages knew .

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Nowhere in these verses states or suggests that they didn't know what they were speaking or they were speaking in unintelligent gibberish. 2:11 states that they were bearing witness of "the wonderful works of God." And please keep in mind that this wasn't a one way street, it wasn't like a half of them speaking and the other half listening. All of them were both speaking and listening. 2:7 and 2:12 state they were saying to "one another", so those who heard the testimony of God must've been praising God as well.

 

[hawkman]

Nowhere in these verses states or suggests that they didn't know what they were speaking or they were speaking in unintelligent gibberish. 2:11 states that they were bearing witness of "the wonderful works of God." And please keep in mind that this wasn't a one way street, it wasn't like a half of them speaking and the other half listening. All of them were both speaking and listening. 2:7 and 2:12 state they were saying to "one another", so those who heard the testimony of God must've been praising God as well.

The ones speaking as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance were speaking in a tongue unknown to them . These verses bare that out .

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The ones speaking as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance were speaking in a tongue unknown to them . These verses bare that out .

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

In NKJV 14:4 says speaks in A tongue, not "unknown" tongue; same in 14:13-14.

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."

14:27 is written in the context of keeping church meetings in ORDER, in a civilized manner, you have something to say, you speak in turn. If everybody is speaking with no respect of others, then that would be a racket, you can hear nothing but noise.

 

[Free]

How would Luke know they "prophesied" if they were speaking in gibberish, incomprehensive to both the audience and themselves?

First, there were 120 believers speaking in languages unknown to each speaker. Second, there were “Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven,” and each one heard “them speak in his own language.” Third, what makes you think they prophesied? We must be careful and stick to the text.

I don’t think Luke recorded this in real-time. But, it doesn’t really matter, since either way, those devout Jews told the disciples what was said. That would also go for Luke if he was there, but if he wasn’t, he was told what was said.

Real gift of tongue is not about the utterance itself, but the CONTENTS of that utterance.

And, yet, you haven’t provided a verse to support that. What we do see in Acts 2 is pretty clear:

Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” (ESV)

The astonishment was at each “devout man” hearing the disciples speaking his own language, not what the content was. Verse 4 makes it clear that it was the speaking in unknown languages that was given by the Holy Spirit.

Back to your original point, the crowd at Pentecost were "speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God," that's bearing testimony;

Of course, but it was done supernaturally through speaking in languages unknown to the disciples, as enabled by the Holy Spirit. That was the whole point of the astonishment of everyone else, some of whom thought the disciples were drunk. It would be very hard to make the point that merely speaking “the mighty works of God” would make others think the disciples were drunk.

then Peter prophesied about the "latter rain", the pouring of the Holy Spirit,

Peter didn’t prophesy, he quoted from Joel 2:28-32 to explain what was happening, and to turn the hearts of the listeners to God, that they would call on his name and be saved.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So are you saying that if one does not speak in tongues (ecstatic language)they have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Yes, I am.

My brother is a minister He asked for the gift of tongues didnt receive ..so He did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

That is correct.
Is he a non-sinner ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Of course, but it was done supernaturally through speaking in languages unknown to the disciples, as enabled by the Holy Spirit. That was the whole point of the astonishment of everyone else, some of whom thought the disciples were drunk. It would be very hard to make the point that merely speaking “the mighty works of God” would make others think the disciples were drunk.

Those were unbelievers, spectators and mockers!

 

[Free]

Those were unbelievers, spectators and mockers!

Stick with the text. What does it say?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And, yet, you haven’t provided a verse to support that. What we do see in Acts 2 is pretty clear:

I've provided 2:11, you choose to ignore the contents of "God's wonderful, mighty works". The 9th commandment forbids bearing false witness.

First, there were 120 believers speaking in languages unknown to each speaker. Second, there were “Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven,” and each one heard “them speak in his own language.” Third, what makes you think they prophesied? We must be careful and stick to the text.

I don’t think Luke recorded this in real-time. But, it doesn’t really matter, since either way, those devout Jews told the disciples what was said. That would also go for Luke if he was there, but if he wasn’t, he was told what was said.

There were at least 3,000 (2:41) from all nations, not just the 120 disciples.

Peter didn’t prophesy, he quoted from Joel 2:28-32 to explain what was happening, and to turn the hearts of the listeners to God, that they would call on his name and be saved.

The word "prophesy" is not limited to prediction of the future, it's not fortune telling. In biblical context, any public speaking in the name of God is prophesying, any speech conveying a messege from God with authority is a prophecy.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Stick with the text. What does it say?

Others "MOCKING", NKJV.

 

[Free]

I've provided 2:11, you choose to ignore the contents of "God's wonderful, mighty works".

Please at least be honest. I very clearly addressed that.

There were at least 3,000 (2:41) from all nations, not just the 120 disciples.

Please read what I write. There were about 120 disciples that were speaking in tongues (Acts 1:15-2:1). The 3,000 were those who heard, believed, and were saved. I never mentioned them apart from them being the “devout men.”

The word "prophesy" is not limited to prediction of the future, it's not fortune telling. In biblical context, any public speaking in the name of God is prophesying, any speech conveying a messege from God with authority is a prophecy.

Have any evidence for that assertion? Does the passage say Peter was prophesying? If not, you are going beyond the text, which almost always leads into trouble.

Others "MOCKING", NKJV.

That’s not what I was meaning. You were deflecting to avoid dealing with the text. That is what you need to deal with—what the text actually says, without going beyond it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Please at least be honest. I very clearly addressed that.

And I've made my point that this testimony is what really matters.

Please read what I write. There were about 120 disciples that were speaking in tongues (Acts 1:15-2:1). The 3,000 were those who heard, believed, and were saved. I never mentioned them apart from them being the “devout men.”

I never denied that, and you agreed that it is not necessary to have this miracle reproduced in every congregation.

Have any evidence for that assertion? Does the passage say Peter was prophesying? If not, you are going beyond the text, which almost always leads into trouble.

I'm arguing about the definition of "prophesying" in biblical narrative, not just in this one passage, but the whole biblical narrative - "divine communication of God's will," delivering a messege from God like an angel, That's exactly what Peter was doing.

What Is Prophecy? Bible Meaning and Examples of Prophesy

Prophecy at its most fundamental meaning is “a message from God.” Learn why the Bible included prophecies and their significance today!

www.christianity.com

That’s not what I was meaning. You were deflecting to avoid dealing with the text. That is what you need to deal with—what the text actually says, without going beyond it.

I did stick with the text, if you don't believe me, go check 2:13 yourself. Both KJV and NKJV read "others MOCKING said," guaranteed. If you truly stick with the text, you would acknowledge that in 19:6 the text only says "speak with tongues" without specifying a "foreign" tongue or a "heavenly" tongue.

 

[Free]

And I've made my point that this testimony is what really matters.

You’ve said so, but haven’t at all supported it. The point is made throughout the passage that it is the speaking in unknown languages that is the supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit.

I never denied that,

So, your statement—“There were at least 3,000 (2:41) from all nations, not just the 120 disciples.”—then makes no sense.

and you agreed that it is not necessary to have this miracle reproduced in every congregation.

Right. And, that was something you brought up that had nothing to do with anything I had said.

I'm arguing about the definition of "prophesying" in biblical narrative, not just in this one passage, but the whole biblical narrative - "divine communication of God's will," delivering a messege from God like an angel, That's exactly what Peter was doing.

Was he not just teaching, just like he, Paul. John, and the other NT writers do in their writings? Or like any other instance where they spoke before crowds or debated in the synagogues?

What Is Prophecy? Bible Meaning and Examples of Prophesy

Prophecy at its most fundamental meaning is “a message from God.” Learn why the Bible included prophecies and their significance today!

www.christianity.com

If the text doesn’t say prophesying, then it’s best to not go beyond the text.

I did stick with the text, if you don't believe me, go check 2:13 yourself. Both KJV and NKJV read "others MOCKING said," guaranteed.

What does that have to do with anything I’ve said?

If you truly stick with the text, you would acknowledge that in 19:6 the text only says "speak with tongues" without specifying a "foreign" tongue or a "heavenly" tongue.

Because tongues has already been defined in Acts 2, and that is how it is used throughout Acts. It doesn’t make sense for the verse to mention “tongues” if all it is saying is that they were simply speaking of God in their own language. That makes the mention of tongues meaningless and redundant, right?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You’ve said so, but haven’t at all supported it. The point is made throughout the passage that it is the speaking in unknown languages that is the supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit.

The point of the passage is the giving of the Holy Spirit. God's holy church was born on that day, the feast of weeks.

So, your statement—“There were at least 3,000 (2:41) from all nations, not just the 120 disciples.”—then makes no sense.

How so? What are we even fighting about?

If the text doesn’t say prophesying, then it’s best to not go beyond the text.

Call it whatever you like, but by biblical definition according to this authoritative source, it's prophesying, for Peter was speaking on behalf of God.

What does that have to do with anything I’ve said?

You demand I stick with the text, I oblige.

Because tongues has already been defined in Acts 2, and that is how it is used throughout Acts. It doesn’t make sense for the verse to mention “tongues” if all it is saying is that they were simply speaking of God in their own language. That makes the mention of tongues meaningless and redundant, right?

If you truly agreed that "speaking in unknown foreign language" is not necessary to be reproduced in every congregation, as you did in #6, then why must it be reproduced in this occasion? You criticize me for defining "prophesying" and going beyond the text, and here you're doing exactly that, defining "tongues" and going beyond the text.

 

[Corinth77777]

Yes, I am.

That is correct.
Is he a non-sinner ?

So are you saying that if one does not speak in tongues (ecstatic language)they have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Yes, I am.

My brother is a minister He asked for the gift of tongues didnt receive ..so He did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

That is correct.
Is he a non-sinner ?

...........................
So you believe the Gift of the Holy Ghost is Speaking in tongues, or the evidence that you have received the Holy Spirit.

Therefore you've concluded that everyone that does not speak in tongues does not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.

Well give scriptural proof?

 

[Corinth77777]

The ones speaking as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance were speaking in a tongue unknown to them . These verses bare that out .

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Although I do not agree with Mc Author on other ideals I can see His here.

Why Paul met People where they were at.

And if Im correct in my memory of something Author pointed out is He believed that there was a difference between tongue and tounges with the -S-
One Spoke of true gift ( with the S)and other spoke of false

Let's go to kjv to see if this is true there



1 Corinthians 14 kjv



2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I believe Mac Author suggest here that it could be referring to "a god" And I believe it said that Corinth had Mysery religions. Wasn't Diana one of their gods?

GODDESS Diana in Corinth
(see below #1)

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Are there any scriptures that say gifts are given to edify oneselves?



5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.



6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

......

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.



14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

one cant get around this passage, thank God He says " if"

But what does He conclude in all this- that what He does He will do with understanding

I believe Paul became all things to people to win them for Christ. Meaning He met them where they were. Just because a person hears the truth doesn't mesn they let go of old cultural practices all at once. They grow in grace.
.... .... .... ..............
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

"Let all things be done unto edifying"
Do you think this means you should know what you say and others should too?

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

....

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
______________________________________________
#1 Acts 18 or 19
24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of [the goddess] Artemis [h][Diana], brought no small income to his craftsmen.

25 These he called together, along with the workmen of similar trades, and said, Men, you are acquainted with the facts and understand that from this business we derive our wealth and livelihood.

26 Now you notice and hear that not only at Ephesus but almost all over [the province of] Asia this Paul has persuaded and induced people to believe his teaching and has alienated a considerable company of them, saying that gods that are made with human hands are not really gods at all.

27 Now there is danger not merely that this trade of ours may be discredited, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may come into disrepute and count for nothing, and that her glorious magnificence may be degraded and fall into contempt—she whom all [the province of] Asia and the wide world worship.

28 As they listened to this, they were filled with rage and they continued to shout, Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, I am.

That is correct.
Is he a non-sinner ?

...........................
So you believe the Gift of the Holy Ghost is Speaking in tongues, or the evidence that you have received the Holy Spirit.

Yes, just like it was on the day of Pentecost, and Cornelius and his household, and with the twelve at Ephesus

Therefore you've concluded that everyone that does not speak in tongues does not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.

Correct.

Well give scriptural proof?

Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6.

Back to my unanswered question to you...
Is that man you mentioned a non-sinner ?
If not, he has not yet repented of sin, so the Holy Spirit will not make his vessel a temple for Himself.
The Spirit will not reside in a polluted temple.

 

[hawkman]

Although I do not agree with Mc Author on other ideals I can see His here.

So this McAuthor you speak of , do you think he could be a fales teacher since you don't always agree with him ?

 

[Corinth77777]

So this McAuthor you speak of , do you think he could be a fales teacher since you don't always agree with him ?

That would mean that everyone I do not agree with here are false teachers.

 

[Corinth77777]

In NKJV 14:4 says speaks in A tongue, not "unknown" tongue; same in 14:13-14.

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."

14:27 is written in the context of keeping church meetings in ORDER, in a civilized manner, you have something to say, you speak in turn. If everybody is speaking with no respect of others, then that would be a racket, you can hear nothing but noise.

Have you ever spoke in tongues Carry_Your_Name