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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Five Points of Calvinism
- Thread starter Malachi
- Start date
You said this: "This message that the Lord gave His disciples, is the original message He gave to Adam and Eve.
The first words ever spoken to Mankind:
Be fruitful and multiply and have dominion…"
So, my point still stands: apparently you think Jesus commanded His disciples to go and make babies. How silly.
You've once again given NO Scripture to support your assumption. And they had NO ability to do that. Aren't you aware that they didn't have any children until AFTER they sinned and corrupted the human race? That removed any ability to "reproduce the incorrupt image of God". Whatever that means.
All they could do is make babies. But because they had sinned before they got around to making babies, all babies born were born with a sin nature.
Not at all. The fruit is PRODUCTION from the PLANT. Seeds don't "reproduce". Where do you get that?
Here's the parable:
Seed sown is the Word of God. The gospel by which one is saved when they believe it (Lu 8:12).
Soils are various kinds of people. Soil 1 represents unbelievers. They didn't believe because Satan "stole the seed away, lest they believe and be saved". Lu 8:12
Soil 2 believed and are therefore saved. But they only believed for a while. Therefore, they didn't produce any fruit. iow, they had no works or deeds. Soil 3 believed because we see a plant germinated from the seed, but the cares of life choked out the plants so that there was no production of fruit. Soil 4 wasn't distracted by worries or cares of life and did produce fruit.
The words of the Lord to Mankind, be fruitful and multiply, subdue the earth and have dominion, can only be fulfilled through reproduction.
Reproducing the Image of God through "birth" is the way God has chosen this work to be accomplished.
The New Birth is the way children of God are produced.
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
1 John 5:1
JLB
The seed sprang up and became a plant, then withered and died.
Likewise those who believe for a while were saved for a while.
JLB
Lest you have already forgotten, you claimed that the "first words" to the man and woman were to be fruitful and multiply, meaning make babies. The LORD had already told Adam to till the Garden.
I sure would like some evidence from Scripture, rather than just your opinion about the matter.
So you think the LORD was telling Adam and the woman to evangelize? Please read the Genesis account again.
What does this verse have to do with the discussion?
No, the text does not say the plant died. It withered. That isn't death.
Likewise??? Your just making another huge assumption. I've proven that the word for "fall away" is middle voice. Man can neither save himself or unsave himself. Salvation is all of God, per Heb 12:2.
I've proven that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
Luke 8:6
Can plants continue to live without moisture?
No scripture, just a huge assumption.
A person must do the work of obeying the Gospel to be saved... which is to believe with their heart and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10
For faith alone can not save.
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
JLB
You're just assuming again. And remember, this is a parable, not a literal story. Eventually a plant without moisture will die, but that has nothing to do with this parable, which is about producing fruit.
Unbelievable!!
Paul identifies spiritual gifts (1:11) justification (5:15) and eternal life (6:23) as charisma. In Rom 11:29 he penned that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.
If you can show from the context of Romans that Paul was NOT including the gift of eternal life as a gift of God that is irrevocable, you'd have a point. But you haven't done that, because it can't be done.
Paul was very clear about the charisma of God; they are irrevocable. And that includes eternal life. Your denial of truth is really amazing.
There is NO work involved to be saved. Believing isn't a work. Rom 4:4,5 andf Eph 2:8,9 refute your assumptions.
Just as I said, there is no mention of work here.
Wowsers!! Apparently you have also denied this truth as well: But if it is by grace,it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Rom 11:6
Where does it say here or anywhere else that faith by itself doesn't save the soul from hell? Nowhere is where. Further, 2:14 isn't about eternal salvation anyway. James used the Greek word for "save" 5 times, none of which refer to eternal salvation. Instead, insert the words "rescue" or "deliver" and then answer the question, "save/rescue/deliver" from what? Most of the time that King David used "save" was in reference to physical deliverance from his many enemies.
However, since you think salvation requires works as well as faith, which isn't orthodox in the slightest, there really is no reason to continue this discussion. My interest is with those who are of an orthodox orientation to Scripture.
Paul absolutely refutes your idea in both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9. Totally.
Those who believe for a while, are saved for a while.
James wrote these words for us, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
James 2 -
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Just like the plant that withers and dies, faith without works is dead.
JLB
Regardless of your repetition, it doesn't make it true. Esp since you haven't shown that Paul was excluding the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29: the gifts of God are irrevocable. Until you do that, we can safely believe that once a child of God, always a child of God.
Are you suggesting that Paul's letter to the Romans was not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit???
Either Paul is wrong, or your view of James' letter is wrong. But Paul's words are so clear and unambiguous. In my opinion the conclusion is that you don't understand James' letter.
When you have shown that Paul didn't include the gift of eternal life as gifts that are irrevocable, I will side with you.
[Deleted personal comment. Address the topic and not the person. ToS 2.4]
Last edited by a moderator:
Most know that both Paul and James were inspired. To simplify it:
Paul~~His message is salvation of the soul.
James~~deliverance for the saved soul in the mess of everyday life.
And the believer has deliverance of lifes problems through the Doctrine(faith) that they have studied,learned and apply to lifes problems and victories.
Most look at James and think "overt" works,when most of these works are internal(thinking/faith) and express themselves overtly by what Faith(doctrine) we have.
If we just have the Gospel message faith, can that Babe in Christ faith save us from a smooth talking false teacher? No it can't, but advanced doctrine and the mind of Christ can.
You have stated a lot of opinion here in the face of actual scripture.
James 2 -
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James teaches that faith alone, without works is dead.
If that is true, then James and Paul were at total odds, given what Paul wrote:
Rom 4:4,5
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
Eph 2:8,9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Now, if James was speaking in reference to eternal salvation, you would have to reject what Paul wrote, because he wrote that we are saved by faith, not by works.
And Paul never combined the 2 for eternal salvation.
How does one square what James wrote with what Paul wrote, if one thinks that James was referring to eternal salvation?
The only solution that makes sense to me is that James wasn't speaking of eternal salvation, but being delivered from something else, which in context, would be hypocrisy.
Anyway, how do you reconcile Romans with James?
And James is absolutely right. But if He is talking salvation to eternal life. He is contradicting Christ and Paul.
“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16
“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18
“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40
“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47
.Eph 2:9~~New American Standard Bible
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 3:5~~New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Paul says those who continue to believe...steadfast to the end
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
Jesus says those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Peter says the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9
... an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Do you believe it is possible for someone to choose to depart from Christ and turn to another religion, such as Islam while facing torture or death?
JLB
And one thing that often gets overlooked with James is WHO he is writing to.
James 1:1~~New American Standard Bible
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
He had a very Jewish audience And James was a early book. And these Jewish Christians had recently found out that the poor dogs(Gentiles) are coming along for the ride.