The Five Points of Calvinism

[chessman]

WRT my comparison of God's Word in Isaiah 53 to The Parable of the Sower of The Seef (God's Word) in post #350, you reply with:

This is nothing more than conflating 2 different passages...not proper to import one text upon another...forcing Isa 53 into the parable is nothing short of "spiritualizing" the parable...Totally irrelevant to the parable of the soils.

How about when you did it in post #344:

The Jews all had Isaiah 53. How do you think people before Jesus were saved?

. Was that conflation, irrelevance and forcing when you did it? Or is just me?

BTW, the gospel is about the FACT that we are sinners, ...

That be my point!

Matt 13 (LEB) this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. But he does not have a root in himself​

When Jesus said they had immediate joy, it sounds to me like they skipped the fact that they are sinners.

When Jesus said they had not a root, It sounds to me as though they had not The Root (Jesus).

Those remain my to valid points about soil #2 never being saved which you've done nothing to counter.

 

[JLB]

Nor is JLB's statement above a complete statement of what Jesus said about soil 1 or soil 2. You both can disregar

No root in himself doesn't matter in the least. That is a side discussion that you went on with FreeGrace.

What Jesus said was "believed" for a while.

Now either "believed" means saved or it doesn't.

Jesus says it does in the previous verse.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

...believe and be saved

The requirement for being saved is to believe.

If you can show me a scripture whereby the requirement to be saved is to have a root system, them please share it.

I don't find any scripture where Jesus says, "have a root system and be saved".

The requirement is "believe" and be saved.

Those who believe for a while we're saved... For a while.

JLB

 

[chessman]

No root in himself doesn't matter in the least. That is a side discussion

JLB

At least you are honest about your belief here.
But the fact remains that in Jesus' interpretation of the parable, He (not me) said soil #2 had not root in themselves. I don't find that to no matter nor a side discussion.

 

[JLB]

At least you are honest about your belief here.
But the fact remains that in Jesus' interpretation of the parable, He (not me) said soil #2 had not root in themselves. I don't find that to no matter nor a side discussion.

The only requirement that Jesus gives to be saved is believing.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

...lest they should believe and be saved.

The root as well as the fruit of the seed, pertains to the "message of the kingdom.

It is the soil that represents the person, not the root.

The person in soil #2 BELIEVED, and therefore was saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

The only requirement that Jesus gives to be saved is believing.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

...lest they should believe and be saved.

The root as well as the fruit of the seed, pertains to the "message of the kingdom.

It is the soil that represents the person, not the root.

The person in soil #2 BELIEVED, and therefore was saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.


JLB

JLB, if you think that to believe = saved, check out John 2:23-25.
Joh 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25

And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Personally, I believe in this case is to believe is not enough according to Jesus.

 

[JLB]

JLB, if you think that to believe = saved, check out John 2:23-25.
Joh 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25

And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Personally, I believe in this case is to believe is not enough according to Jesus.

I have often pointed people to this scripture, but from another perspective.

Please share with me, your perspective about salvation from this scripture.

Incidentally, I believe the original word believe carries the idea of commit, trust and obey, as well as believe, so I tend to agree with your statement, though I don't necessarily understand your perspective of this scripture.


Thanks JLB

 

[childeye]

At least you are honest about your belief here.
But the fact remains that in Jesus' interpretation of the parable, He (not me) said soil #2 had not root in themselves. I don't find that to no matter nor a side discussion.

The root in themselves. What do you take that to mean?

 

[chessman]

The root in themselves. What do you take that to mean?

The same as God's Word (the Seed) says it means; Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 53:2-12 (LEB) For he (Jesus) went up like a shoot before him,and like a root from dry ground.
​

The same Jesus as bore our sickness and pain.

However, he was the one who lifted up our sicknesses,and he carried our pain, ​

 

[JLB]

The same as God's Word (the Seed) says it means; Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 53:2-12 (LEB) For he (Jesus) went up like a shoot before him,and like a root from dry ground.
​

The same Jesus as bore our sickness and pain.

However, he was the one who lifted up our sicknesses,and he carried our pain, ​

Sorry bro

You are grasping at straws.

Please show us the scripture whereby Jesus says "have s foot system and be saved".

He says believe and be saved.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Please show us the scripture whereby Jesus says "have s foot system and be saved".

JLB

I have not said people need a root system to be saved. Rather, I have said they/we need The Root (Jesus Christ) to be saved. As for your request for Scripture, there are 100's and I'm surprised you would request a Scripture that says people need Jesus to be saved. But here's one that is clear enough:

Acts 2:38 (LEB) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ​

Notice how it says repent first? Yet soil #2 had immediate joy, not repentance first.

And be baptised (washed) in the name of Jesus Chrst (The Root).

And...

 

[Chopper]

I have often pointed people to this scripture, but from another perspective.

Please share with me, your perspective about salvation from this scripture.

Incidentally, I believe the original word believe carries the idea of commit, trust and obey, as well as believe, so I tend to agree with your statement, though I don't necessarily understand your perspective of this scripture.


Thanks JLB

I'd be glad to share with you, my old friend. When I was in Bible College, I had a Professor who taught that anyone who "believed" was saved, similar to your explanation. It wasn't until later that I studied John 2 and discovered that to believe has other meanings.

If you notice that the verse says that they believed "when they saw the miracles that He did." I think you will agree that in some cases, people make a profession of believing in Jesus for other reasons than wanting Him to be the Master Owner of their lives. Similar to the Sower and the seeds.

Therefore, when these people face our Lord at their judgment, Jesus says "I never knew you." The reason was, they were coxed by a friend to go forward, or, the preacher spoke about prosperity, hey, some of these preachers promise the moon if they just will "believe" in Jesus.

Does this help?

 

[JLB]

I'd be glad to share with you, my old friend. When I was in Bible College, I had a Professor who taught that anyone who "believed" was saved, similar to your explanation. It wasn't until later that I studied John 2 and discovered that to believe has other meanings.

If you notice that the verse says that they believed "when they saw the miracles that He did." I think you will agree that in some cases, people make a profession of believing in Jesus for other reasons than wanting Him to be the Master Owner of their lives. Similar to the Sower and the seeds.

Therefore, when these people face our Lord at their judgment, Jesus says "I never knew you." The reason was, they were coxed by a friend to go forward, or, the preacher spoke about prosperity, hey, some of these preachers promise the moon if they just will "believe" in Jesus.

Does this help?

Thanks for sharing.

I have found that the original word believe, carries a fuller meaning than the word used today in modern society.

It carries the meaning of obey, commit and trust with it, as well as "believe".

In other words, a person "shows" they believe the Lord by obeying what He says.

This is a lifetime commitment, not a one time thing.

However, it's still the"initial" requirement for being saved, otherwise the thief on the cross would have never been with Jesus in Paradise.

Otherwise those who "call" on the Lord would never be saved, according to the scriptures.

And it shall come to pass , that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved . Acts 2:21

12 Those by the way side are they that hear ; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved . Luke 8:12 KJV

...then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Believing is the very thing that starts the process of being saved.

In those by the wayside, the devil removes the word out of their heart before they believe, otherwise they would be saved.

Paul teaches us: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God... Ephesians 2:8

...have been saved through faith is past tense. In other words Paul declares a person to be saved when they believe, or have faith.

Paul also teaches us that we must continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Back to Luke 8 -

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear , receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe , and in time of temptation fall away . Luke 8:13 KJV

Those on the rock indeed believed for a while, which could be months or years, for they received the word with joy, and believed...

They just didn't endure to the end.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

endure - Strong's Number: 5278 - Hupomeno
Definition

1. to remain
   1. to tarry behind
2. to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
   1. to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
   2. to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


Those who believe for a while, were saved for a while.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for sharing.

I have found that the original word believe, carries a fuller meaning than the word used today in modern society.

It carries the meaning of obey, commit and trust with it, as well as "believe".

In other words, a person "shows" they believe the Lord by obeying what He says.

This is a lifetime commitment, not a one time thing.

However, it's still the"initial" requirement for being saved, otherwise the thief on the cross would have never been with Jesus in Paradise.

Otherwise those who "call" on the Lord would never be saved, according to the scriptures.

And it shall come to pass , that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved . Acts 2:21

12 Those by the way side are they that hear ; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved . Luke 8:12 KJV

...then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Believing is the very thing that starts the process of being saved.

In those by the wayside, the devil removes the word out of their heart before they believe, otherwise they would be saved.

Paul teaches us: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God... Ephesians 2:8

...have been saved through faith is past tense. In other words Paul declares a person to be saved when they believe, or have faith.

Paul also teaches us that we must continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Back to Luke 8 -

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear , receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe , and in time of temptation fall away . Luke 8:13 KJV

Those on the rock indeed believed for a while, which could be months or years, for they received the word with joy, and believed...

They just didn't endure to the end.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

endure - Strong's Number: 5278 - Hupomeno
Definition

1. to remain
   1. to tarry behind
2. to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
   1. to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
   2. to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


Those who believe for a while, were saved for a while.


JLB

Thanks JLB that's a very good doctrine that you have there.

 

[JLB]

Thanks JLB that's a very good doctrine that you have there.

I guess when it comes down to it, there is only one group in the parable of the Sower that will be saved on the Day of Judgement.

Those that produced fruit.

On this I believe we both agree.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

I guess when it comes down to it, there is only one group in the parable of the Sower that will be saved on the Day of Judgement.

Those that produced fruit.

On this I believe we both agree.


JLB

Yes we both agree. I'm glad that you put it that way. Even that causes me to wonder. It's the age old question, how much fruit does it take to reckon someone to be saved. One fruit, twelve? Any thoughts?

 

[Deborah13]

JLB, if you think that to believe = saved, check out John 2:23-25.
Joh 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Personally, I believe in this case is to believe is not enough according to Jesus.

Joh 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

There was a man casting out demons in Jesus name, there is power in his name, one can believe in the power of the name without knowing and believing he is the risen Lord who came in the flesh but they speak no evil about Him.
Mar 9:38 And John did answer him, saying, `Teacher, we saw a certain one in thy name casting out demons, who doth not follow us, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow us.'
Mar 9:39 And Jesus said, `Forbid him not, for there is no one who shall do a mighty work in my name, and shall be able readily to speak evil of me:

There are many today who believe He was a good man that they should imitate, there are those who believe He was a prophet of God, and there are those who believe in the power of His name for working miracles but they don't believe He was the begotten Son of God who came in the flesh and was raised from the dead, as the Redeemer of men. So they don't trust in Him for their justification and sanctification, leading to salvation.

 

[JLB]

Yes we both agree. I'm glad that you put it that way. Even that causes me to wonder. It's the age old question, how much fruit does it take to reckon someone to be saved. One fruit, twelve? Any thoughts?

I think the clarifying of what "fruit" means is this passage, would be the best place to start.

Fruit in the parable of the Sower, represents people.

The seed is Christ, the message of the Kingdom, the Word.

The fruit would be Christians, "Christ like ones".

To me the parable of the Sower is a set of instructions to His disciples on where or where not to invest their life to reap the greatest return on the investment of their lives and His.

These 12 were called to reproduce Christ in other disciples.

For a person to be able to reproduce Christ in another person, they themselves must first have Christ produced within themselves.

For a person to make disciples, they themselves must first be discipled.

This message that the Lord gave His disciples, is the original message He gave to Adam and Eve.

The first words ever spoken to Mankind:

Be fruitful and multiply and have dominion...



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I think the clarifying of what "fruit" means is this passage, would be the best place to start.

Fruit in the parable of the Sower, represents people.

Nope. Fruit represents deeds or works. Production. If you want to see "people", just look down at the soil. There were 4 types of soils, or people.

The seed is Christ, the message of the Kingdom, the Word.

Specifically, it is the gospel of Christ.

The fruit would be Christians, "Christ like ones".

Nope again. Fruit is production from plants.

To me the parable of the Sower is a set of instructions to His disciples on where or where not to invest their life to reap the greatest return on the investment of their lives and His.

How in the world do you get this from that? Jesus was explaining why and why not there is production in the lives of believers (soils 2-4).

These 12 were called to reproduce Christ in other disciples.

Where do you get this? I see a lot of speculation and fantasy. They were chosen to serve Christ. Which included preaching the gospel.

For a person to be able to reproduce Christ in another person, they themselves must first have Christ produced within themselves.

Well, becoming Christ-like is an issue of maturity, or spiritual growth. We see this principle in Gal 4:19 - My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you

For a person to make disciples, they themselves must first be discipled.
This message that the Lord gave His disciples, is the original message He gave to Adam and Eve.

Would you please provide some evidence from Scripture for your claim here?

The first words ever spoken to Mankind: Be fruitful and multiply and have dominion...
JLB

Oh, really?? I had no idea. So Jesus wanted His disciples to make a lot of babies, huh. Who knew?

Does context have any meaning for you?

btw, in case you haven't read Genesis yet, God created Adam and put him over the Garden BEFORE God fashioned the woman from his side. So God spoke MANY words to Adam BEFORE the woman came along.

If your claim were true, that would mean that God created Adam and the woman simultaneously and immediately told them to make a lot of babies. How silly.

 

[JLB]

Oh, really?? I had no idea. So Jesus wanted His disciples to make a lot of babies, huh. Who knew?

Does context have any meaning for you?

btw, in case you haven't read Genesis yet, God created Adam and put him over the Garden BEFORE God fashioned the woman from his side. So God spoke MANY words to Adam BEFORE the woman came along.

If your claim were true, that would mean that God created Adam and the woman simultaneously and immediately told them to make a lot of babies. How silly.

It's a picture of the New Birth.

It's takes people to subdue the earth and have dominion.

Adam and Eve were to reproduce the incorrupt Image of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

How in the world do you get this from that? Jesus was explaining why and why not there is production in the lives of believers (soils 2-4).

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Matthew 13:12

Based on this scripture, what must a person have, in order for more to be given to him?


JLB