The Five Points of Calvinism

[Brother Mike]

If he died in that condition... Most likely. From what I have read of Calvin's own words, I can fairly say, definitely he would say that man was never saved, "picked by God" as you worded it.

Right, but even the Calvinist that obey's God. How do they know they won't leave God and God made them to be an example fit for destruction. Like Pharaoh, or Judas?

I had a Calvinist look real concerned when I asked him how he knows He is actually picked, and not to be an example later. He could not answer that. It almost looked like He was going to cry, but I did grill him good. Might not have been the best way. I am working on my Butt like ways. Taking years though it seems.

Whatever the case, I think you see I am not a fan of Calvinism.

 

[Deborah13]

Right, but even the Calvinist that obey's God. How do they know they won't leave God and God made them to be an example fit for destruction. Like Pharaoh, or Judas?

Well, we have know that neither Pharaoh or Judas ever put God first. Pharaoh worshiped other gods and Judas was a thief from the beginning. I can't think of a NT example of God doing this. But I understand your point and I've wondered the same thing.

Whatever the case, I think you see I am not a fan of Calvinism.

Neither am I but not because of the doctrine of perseverance. Predestination of the elect is all fine and dandy but only if you do not consider the fact that what Calvin taught would mean there are babies and small children being tormented in hell and eventually the lake of fire. :mad

 

[reba]

I would rather trust the Lord for my salvation then myself..

I am weak but Thou art strong;
Jesus, keep me from all wrong;
I'll be satisfied as long
As I walk, let me walk close to Thee.

Refrain:
Just a closer walk with Thee,
Grant it, Jesus, is my plea,
Daily walking close to Thee,
Let it be, dear Lord, let it be.

2 Thro' this world of toil and snares,
If I falter, Lord, who cares?
Who with me my burden shares?
None but Thee, dear Lord, none but Thee. [Refrain]

3 When my feeble life is o'er,
Time for me will be no more;
Guide me gently, safely o'er
To Thy kingdom shore, to Thy shore. [Refrain]

 

[Brother Mike]

Neither am I but not because of the doctrine of perseverance. Predestination of the elect is all fine and dandy but only if you do not consider the fact that what Calvin taught would mean there are babies and small children being tormented in hell and eventually the lake of fire. :mad

it's why they needed to take up a doctrine of no eternal punishment to make things fly a bit better. Being Calvinist, that great idea never occurred to them.

I believe Judas at one point was just as happy as the rest of them. I think all that money thrown at them and him keeping the bag started to weigh on him, and just like Pharaoh, he was used and scripture was fulfilled. Anyone could have been used as many did follow Jesus until his sermon on eating my body thing did not fly to well.

Be blessed Deborah.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

I would rather trust the Lord for my salvation then myself..

I am weak but Thou art strong;
Jesus, keep me from all wrong;
I'll be satisfied as long
As I walk, let me walk close to Thee.

Refrain:
Just a closer walk with Thee,
Grant it, Jesus, is my plea,
Daily walking close to Thee,
Let it be, dear Lord, let it be.

2 Thro' this world of toil and snares,
If I falter, Lord, who cares?
Who with me my burden shares?
None but Thee, dear Lord, none but Thee. [Refrain]

3 When my feeble life is o'er,
Time for me will be no more;
Guide me gently, safely o'er
To Thy kingdom shore, to Thy shore. [Refrain]

Me too. Does one have to be a Calvinist to do that?

 

[reba]

IDK I trust Him for my salvation... I also try to do good 'works' not for my salvation but because of it. I have often considered the LAW when deciding if something was a right or wrong thing.. Why some one has decided those Laws of God are Moses' is beyond me... unless it is for descriptive reasons .I also try and consider The Words of Jesus about loving each other..
Deb you and i dont always agree but i feel we truly respect each other ..

 

[Sparkey]

Deb you and i dont always agree but i feel we truly respect each other ..

That's IS the law. Yep. You got it in one.
(Hi there! Sorry to hit-n-run but grandkids at the bus stop, no time)

 

[JLB]

Why did you underline 'when'?

Because it correlates to when Abraham was justified... When he offered Isaac.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No.

I'm saying when we obey the Gospel, to repent, we receive the gift of righteousness of Christ.

Actually, the gift of righteousness is received by believing in Christ. The Bible does describe righteousness of Christ as a gift in Rom 5:15,16,17.

However, the Bible defines how one receives, or is credited this gift:
Rom 4:3 "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"
Rom 4:5 "to the man who does not work…his faith is credited as righteousness"
Rom 4:6 "the man to whom God to whom God creatis righteousness apart from works"
Rom 4:9 "Abraham's faithj was credited to him as righteousness"
Rom 4:11 "of all who believe…in order that righteousness might be credited to them"
Rom 4:13 "through the righteousness that comes by faith"
Rom 4:24 "but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness - for us who believe in Him"

Repentance is no where mentioned in Romans 4, 5, 6.

 

[JLB]

Why some one has decided those Laws of God are Moses' is beyond me...

The law of Moses was the law of the covenant of Sinai, and was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed should come.

It's the same reason the law of Christ, is called such, since Christ is the Medoator of the New Covenant.

JLB

 

[JLB]

unless it is for descriptive reasons .

Yes

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Wrong. It seems you've confused pisteuo with pietho. There is no suggestion of obedience in the word "pisteuo". It's all about trust, believe"

You may want to read these passages of scripture.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

and again

18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,
19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;
20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:18-21

and again

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

and again

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Seems my comment was entirely ignored. But my point is true; pisteuo does NOT carry the meaning of obedience.

"By faith", carries the mean of the action of obedience.

No it doesn't. Neither pisteuo the verb or pistis the noun carry that meaning.

 

[Deborah13]

IDK I trust Him for my salvation... I also try to do good 'works' not for my salvation but because of it. I have often considered the LAW when deciding if something was a right or wrong thing.. Why some one has decided those Laws of God are Moses' is beyond me... unless it is for descriptive reasons .I also try and consider The Words of Jesus about loving each other..
Deb you and i dont always agree but i feel we truly respect each other ..

I know I respect you, reba.

I know that the only reason that I will be saved is because of what He did, there is nothing I can do to make that happen. I try to obey Him because I know He loves me and He is God.
I have also referred to the Law of Moses to understand God's nature and what He desires.
I believe the Bible refers to that covenant as the Law of Moses because Moses was the mediator of the covenant between Israel and God. Just like the Law of Christ, He is the mediator of the new covenant. Which I believe is older than the old covenant. Don't know if that makes sense. That's all I can figure. :neutral

 

[Deborah13]

The law of Moses was the law of the covenant of Sinai, and was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed should come.

It's the same reason the law of Christ, is called such, since Christ is the Medoator of the New Covenant.

JLB

You beat me to it.

 

[reba]

sheeesh where is that ol "like" button

 

[dianegcook]

I did not read all the post, sorry, I'm pressing time here.

Something to consider,
What about the 144,000 in Rev.?
Did God for - know?
Did He chose them not?

Many are called but few are chosen.
Yes, there are some that are chosen.
Just as in Rom.11:4
I have reserved to Myself 7000 men....
What about Saul?
He thought he was doing the right thing, until God intervene in his life, on the road to Damascus.

Many are called but few are chosen.

The man with the colt was chosen, to give Jesus his animal to go up to Jerusalem, as it was written.
How did he know?

Many are called, but few are chosen.

Mary was picked of all the women, to conceive the Christ.

Many are called, but a few chosen.

Jeremiah was sanctified, ordained, before he was formed in the belly.

Many are called, but few chosen.

God has a purpose and He can choose whomever He wants.

Are all predestined, no, but a few are.

 

[JLB]

Actually, the gift of righteousness is received by believing in Christ. The Bible does describe righteousness of Christ as a gift in Rom 5:15,16,17.

However, the Bible defines how one receives, or is credited this gift:
Rom 4:3 "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"
Rom 4:5 "to the man who does not work…his faith is credited as righteousness"
Rom 4:6 "the man to whom God to whom God creatis righteousness apart from works"
Rom 4:9 "Abraham's faithj was credited to him as righteousness"
Rom 4:11 "of all who believe…in order that righteousness might be credited to them"
Rom 4:13 "through the righteousness that comes by faith"
Rom 4:24 "but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness - for us who believe in Him"

Repentance is no where mentioned in Romans 4, 5, 6.

Ok here are some scripture where believing is not mentioned. That is why we need the whole counsel of God.


to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

This scripture teaches the way to receive the forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance among the sanctified, is by turning from darkness to light, turning from the power of Satan to God.

and again

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

and again

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Are all predestined, no, but a few are.

And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
(Luk 14:19-20)
For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
(Luk 14:24)

Could it be everyone was designed to be in the Lord Jesus? Made for some purpose for God's use?

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
(Col 1:16)
and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
(Col 1:20)

Was anything made not to serve God?

Could it be that the many that were called were the ones that could hear, and not all those were worthy of choosing?

 

[JLB]

Seems my comment was entirely ignored. But my point is true; pisteuo does NOT carry the meaning of obedience.

Strong's Number: 4100 - Pisteuo


Definition

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

Here is how disobedience and unbelief are interchanged.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Unbelief is disobedience.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

To believe the Gospel, is to obey the Gospel.


The Holy Command of the Gospel is Repent.

We are to change who we serve.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Great scriptures, Mark.

Could you share briefly what your point is?


Thanks JLB

To continue. The law of sin and death says if you do this, you will die. Sin leads to death. Jesus said, if you do this you shall live. Keep his commandments. So I posted his commandments. So you see the difference. It is night and day, life and death. Follow Jesus and you will live. Follow the law and you will die.

So let's not return to our vomit.