The Five Points of Calvinism

[JLB]

As long as God gives growth.

God indeed does give the increase, however through each stage of growth, we must turn from the sins and weaknesses that hinder the growth God desires to bring to our life.

The free will of the believer is involved in the work of transformation the each of these stages.

If it were only up to God, then we would all be just like Jesus.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Your doctrine has in effect invented this imaginary person who has the righteousness of faith, but who doesn't add the practice of righteousness to their righteous faith. But John says that person doesn't exist.

I see. Well if John says that person doesn't exist, then that settles it.

All we need now is the scripture where John says this.

The problem is, a person can in fact repent and be justified by the Spirit, then later fall into an unrighteous lifestyle and be overcome by the sin, and end up not inheriting the kingdom of God.

It seems as though you have switched to OSAS

What you fail to recognize is: believe carries the idea of obedience.

In others words: Disobedience is Unbelief.

In the New King James, it is rendered DISOBEDIENCE.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Here in the King James it uses unbelief.

UNBELIEF/DISOBEDIENCE - Strong's Number: 543 - Apeitheia

Definition

1. 
   
   
   • obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

You may want to consider that the scriptures teach us unbelief and disobedience are interchangeable and mean the same thing to God.

JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

God indeed does give the increase, however through each stage of growth, we must turn from the sins and weaknesses that hinder the growth God desires to bring to our life.

The free will of the believer is involved in the work of transformation the each of these stages.

If it were only up to God, then we would all be just like Jesus.

Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

What happens if we don't lay aside every weight and sin? Calvinist believe that despite that, man can not interfere with God's Sovereign will. So we can sit back, eat potato chips, watch porn all day and God will drag us to the finish line. That sounds like a pretty good plan actually.

If Calvinism were actually true.

Being a Christian Calvinist would make life much more easy. You can't thwart the Divine will of God. Who God wants saved is going to be saved. Means I would not have to even consider teaching or preaching any gospel. God certainly would not need my help.

If Calvinism were actually true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

..

...a person can in fact repent and be justified by the Spirit, then later fall into an unrighteous lifestyle and be overcome by the sin, and end up not inheriting the kingdom of God.

We both know this, but you are arguing that the reason this person can't be saved is because a genuine faith has to have obedience added to it because it is the obedience part that actually makes a person righteous before God.

I'm saying the reason this person can't be saved is because a genuine faith has to have obedience added to it because obedience is what righteous people do, their faith all by itself being the part that actually made them righteous, not the obedience that resulted from them becoming righteous by their faith. The obedience only shows them to be righteous, not makes them righteous.

Your argument can't be correct because you say the person has faith, yet doesn't do righteous work. But John said the person who doesn't do righteous work is not saved:

"...anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God..." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm saying the reason this person can't be saved is because the faith that doesn't have obedience added to it is not a genuine faith that, all by itself

James said the devils have faith, they believe so much in God they tremble in fear. Trembling in fear over a belief is faith. The devils faith won't save them though, because they refuse to obey God.

Someone can say they actually have faith, but without acting on that faith, the faith is dead.

You said "righteous works" What is your term for that?

Mary said, whatever he says do, do................... Jesus told them to go fill 6 pots with water and present it to the governor. They did what Jesus asked, and filled the pots, that step of faith caused a Miracle.

Is filling pots of water considered a "righteous Work" doing what your told to do?

Naaman had faith that the prophet of God could heal him. No doubt, but when the Prophet told him to wash in a river he did not like, He told Elisha to just pray to God, and that is good enough.

We see faith, but we see complaining and wanting to do something their way. Would faith have got him healed if He did not do what he was told?

Anyway... Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James said the devils have faith, they believe so much in God they tremble in fear. Trembling in fear over a belief is faith. The devils faith won't save them though, because they refuse to obey God.

No, the demons aren't saved because they do not trust God for salvation through Jesus Christ. The 'faith' they have is that he exists and that he is indeed the Messiah: "Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-the Holy One of God!" 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!"" (Luke 1:24-25 NASB)

James is not saying the faith they have is the faith that saves if they would only add works to it. Simply knowing that Jesus exists and is the Messiah is not the faith that saves (Acts 16:17 NASB is another example) and that kind of faith is evidenced by it's lack of righteous work. That's James' point. The faith that can save a person is the kind that can be seen in what a person does. John says the same thing when he says righteous people do righteous things and unrighteous people do unrighteous things (1 John 3:7 NASB, 1 John 3:10 NASB).

Anyone who's done even a little witnessing knows this kind of demon 'faith', the faith the demons have, is very popular among people. They know he exists, and will openly confess he is the Messiah, and because they believe that they are okay with God, but they do not trust in his forgiveness and they continue along in the unrighteousness of their ways taking false comfort in their dead faith that can not save them. We know that faith is dead because it produces no corresponding works of righteousness. If they had works it would justify them as having saving faith in Christ, not just the dead faith of demons.

 

[MarkT]

God indeed does give the increase, however through each stage of growth, we must turn from the sins and weaknesses that hinder the growth God desires to bring to our life.

The free will of the believer is involved in the work of transformation the each of these stages.

If it were only up to God, then we would all be just like Jesus.

JLB

We already turned from sin. In fact we are no longer under the law of sin and death and death has no power over us. Let's not go back to obeying the law. Let's not go back to the thing that killed us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You said "righteous works" What is your term for that?

Do you mean what do I think righteous work is?

Well, James uses several examples of the righteous work that makes a person a doer, not just a hearer of the word of God, and therefore, a person who is justified (shown to be righteous) by what they do. He says to be quick to listen, slow to become angry; to look after orphans and widows in their distress; keeping oneself from being polluted by the world; not showing favoritism to the rich; loving your neighbor as yourself; being merciful; and caring for the needs of a brother or sister in need.

These righteous things (among many others) are what justify a person as having the righteousness of Christ that comes by faith, and not just the dead faith of demons that simply knows He exists and is the Messiah and has no corresponding acts of righteousness as a result. Righteous creatures are the ones who have righteous deeds following, not unrighteous creatures. That's how a person is justified as having the righteousness of faith that saves--we know it by what they do, or don't do. ."I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB).

 

[JLB]

We already turned from sin. In fact we are no longer under the law of sin and death and death has no power over us. Let's not go back to obeying the law.

Not obeying the law.

When we obey the Gospel, we turn toward God, and from Satan.

That is what Repent means.

This does not mean we repent of our sins. I don't find that in the bible for those coming out of the world.

We are called to repent.

Once we repent, that is turn to God and His power, in which we turn from Satan and his kingdom, we haves obeyed the Gospel.

We are then cleansed and sanctified by the Spirit.

Our past is forgiven, we are given the free gift of righteousness.


JLB

 

[JLB]

We already turned from sin. In fact we are no longer under the law of sin and death and death has no power over us. Let's not go back to obeying the law. Let's not go back to the thing that killed us.

If you are in God's Kingdom, why would you not obey the laws of His Kingdom.

The law of Christ.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant.

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law of Moses.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

...not by faith only.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

The first commandment is you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. The second is like it. You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Mt. 22:37-39

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. 31 And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

39 He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher. 41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

 

[Deborah13]

What happens if we don't lay aside every weight and sin? Calvinist believe that despite that, man can not interfere with God's Sovereign will. So we can sit back, eat potato chips, watch porn all day and God will drag us to the finish line. That sounds like a pretty good plan actually.

I'm not a Calvinist but this statement makes it obvious that you don't have a clue about what TULIP says. That P is perseverance.
That perseverance includes repentance and obedience. If one does not preserver, they are not saved, period. It is just as strict about sin as Arminian is, if not more so.
I think you are describing a modern movement that certainly is not Calvinism.

 

[JLB]

The first commandment is you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. The second is like it. You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Mt. 22:37-39

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. 31 And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

39 He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher. 41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

Great scriptures, Mark.

Could you share briefly what your point is?


Thanks JLB

 

[Deborah13]

The obedience only shows them to be righteous, not makes them righteous.

:nod

 

[JLB]

:nod

When an unrighteous sinner hears the Gospel, and repents towards God, and is granted the free gift of righteousness, because he obeys the Gospel, how does that show he is righteous.

Because he obeys the Gospel, he is made to be righteous, with the righteousness of Christ.


You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

...not by faith only.


JLB

 

[reba]

are the righteous to continue to obey?

 

[Deborah13]

are the righteous to continue to obey?

Of coarse.

 

[Deborah13]

When an unrighteous sinner hears the Gospel, and repents towards God, and is granted the free gift of righteousness, because he obeys the Gospel, how does that show he is righteous.

Because he obeys the Gospel, he is made to be righteous, with the righteousness of Christ.


You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

...not by faith only.


JLB

So because you refer being made righteous in Christ, are you saying the each time someone does works of faith, they are being made righteous again, in Christ?

 

[Brother Mike]

James is not saying the faith they have is the faith that saves if they would only add works to it. Simply knowing that Jesus exists and is the Messiah is not the faith that saves

These righteous things (among many others) are what justify a person as having the righteousness of Christ that comes by faith, and not just the dead faith of demons that simply knows He exists and is the Messiah and has no corresponding acts of righteousness as a result.

Would not confessing with our Mouth the Lord Jesus for what we believe in our heart be a work according to our faith? Is not Baptism which is a good conscience Toward God a work by what someone believes?

Words and actions are powerful also that are connected to what we believe. Sometimes just speaking the Word only, and not the problem changes things.

I was not talking about Demon faith to be saved, I did not use Save. I am talking about all faith, needs some action to what it believes.

I'm not a Calvinist but this statement makes it obvious that you don't have a clue about what TULIP says. That P is perseverance.
That perseverance includes repentance and obedience. If one does not preserver, they are not saved, period. It is just as strict about sin as Arminian is, if not more so.
I think you are describing a modern movement that certainly is not Calvinism.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

I am not reading anything you mentioned here. Perseverance means the ability to be kept.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not

I don't see anywhere that man has the ability to mess up God's election.