The Five Points of Calvinism

[JLB]

are the righteous to continue to obey?

Yes... to continue to obey the command to repent, which means we are to continually remain turned to God.

To un-repent or to turn back from God to Satan, or another religion, after having turned to him...

This is the meaning that is presented in the phrase turn away, or fall away, or depart.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Strong's Number: 868 - Aphistemi

Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

King James Word Usage - Total: 15
depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1


Once we obey the Gospel and repent towards God, we are to remain turned to him, to the end.

Here is what the writer of Hebrews says, just before verse 12...

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6


So yes, the righteous are obligated to obey the Gospel command, to remain in faith, or believe [obey] steadfast to the end.

That is why I call it the work of obedience, and not works of obedience.

Our work that we have been given by God to do is believe [obey] the command to repent towards God, and endure to the end.

For the end of our faith is the salvation of our soul. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

 

[JLB]

So because you refer being made righteous in Christ, are you saying the each time someone does works of faith, they are being made righteous again, in Christ?

We have been given Christ's righteousness, which means a righteousness that is void of any sin.

Because we obey God in something He commands us to do, we are still dependent upon the righteousness of Christ, for we still fall short is other areas.

If we do 99% of what God tells us to do everyday, we still are in violation of all His law...

Never the less, the word says that ...those who practice righteousness are righteous.

Practice carries the meaning of... as a lifestyle.

We are to continually grow and mature in this lifestyle of "practicing righteousness".

As we are faithful in little things, God will trust us with more.

Those who are walking as Apostles are not to be burdened with distributing food and other services that we are all called to start out doing.

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables.
Acts 6:2


JLB


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Acts 5:32

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said:
"Paul rightly teaches that no one is justified by the works of the law, since the law is not of faith.
James rightly teaches that a person is justified by obeying God's Voice, which is where faith comes from.
I just don't see how the difference in the two different "works" is not glaringly obvious.
James teaches us an important principle concerning the law of faith."
No one gets saved by obeying the "law of faith". If so, what verse tells us this? We know how people are saved; by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. That was Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

James was addressing saved Jews. He wasn't trying to convert them or save them. He was encouraging them to demonstrate their faith in the eyes of others. If one doesn't demonstrate their faith (live by faith), then their faith is useless (James 2:20 - argon: barren or useless) towards others. Which v.15 and 16 demonstrate well.

The justification mentioned by James in 2:24 was in reference to others, not to God. The principle is found in many other NT passages:
Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
2 Cor 5:12 - We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
1 Tim 3:7 - And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

All these verses support the point of James in ch 2 about being justified in the eyes of other people by our works.
Rom 12:17, 14:18 and 2 Cor 8:21 all say the same thing: do what is right in the SIGHT of the Lord and in the SIGHT of men. We are justified in the SIGHT of men when we live out or faith. But, those believers who behave as the example of James 2:15,16 will NOT be justified in the SIGHT of others. They will be viewed rightly as hypocrites.

2 Cor 5:12, 1 Tim 3:7, 1 Thess 4:12, and 1 Pet 2:12 stress the importance of our behavior/lifestyle/appearance before others.

And, 1 Jn 3:18 is directly related to James 2:15,16 by not showing love (demonstrating our faith) in deed and truth.

Please explain how any of these verses don't support my view.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said this:
"We all know we can not earn our salvation by doing good works.
However, understanding the primary command of the Gospel, which is repent, is crucial to a persons salvation.
Some are even being taught that a Christian can live any way they want , even as homosexuals or adulterers or as liars, and still be welcomed into Gods kingdom on Judgement Day.
I sincerely hope that you don't believe this is a "petty" issue."


If one believes the gospel, which you've defined obedience to the faith, will they go to heaven?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes... to continue to obey the command to repent, which means we are to continually remain turned to God.

To un-repent or to turn back from God to Satan, or another religion, after having turned to him...

This is the meaning that is presented in the phrase turn away, or fall away, or depart.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Strong's Number: 868 - Aphistemi

Definition

1. 
   
   
   • to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
     
     1. to excite to revolt
   • to stand off, to stand aloof
     1. to go away, to depart from anyone
     2. to desert, withdraw from one
     3. to fall away, become faithless
     4. to shun, flee from
     5. to cease to vex one
     6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
     7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

King James Word Usage - Total: 15
depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1


Once we obey the Gospel and repent towards God, we are to remain turned to him, to the end.

Here is what the writer of Hebrews says, just before verse 12...

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6


So yes, the righteous are obligated to obey the Gospel command, to remain in faith, or believe [obey] steadfast to the end.

That is why I call it the work of obedience, and not works of obedience.

Our work that we have been given by God to do is believe [obey] the command to repent towards God, and endure to the end.

For the end of our faith is the salvation of our soul. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

I was thinking the same thing Deborah13 was. According to your doctrine, if one is MADE righteous by their actions, and not by their faith all by itself apart from work as Paul says, then it would require one to be perfect in their actions to be, and remain righteous.

Obviously, works are a required part of a salvation experience, not because they make a person righteous, or that works and faith have the exact same definition, but because righteous people do righteous things, and if they don't then they are showing themselves to be unrighteous (1 John 3:7 NASB, 1 John 3:10 NASB) .

 

[Deborah13]

Would not confessing with our Mouth the Lord Jesus for what we believe in our heart be a work according to our faith? Is not Baptism which is a good conscience Toward God a work by what someone believes?

Words and actions are powerful also that are connected to what we believe. Sometimes just speaking the Word only, and not the problem changes things.

I was not talking about Demon faith to be saved, I did not use Save. I am talking about all faith, needs some action to what it believes.



Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

I am not reading anything you mentioned here. Perseverance means the ability to be kept.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not

I don't see anywhere that man has the ability to mess up God's election.

I didn't mention election at all, just perseverance of the saints, focus.

You didn't read enough then. So read the rest of what the doctrine says......

"One of the misconceptions about the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is that it will lead to “carnal Christians” who believe that since they are eternally secure they can live whatever licentious lifestyle they wish and still be saved. But that is a misunderstanding of the doctrine and what the Bible teaches. A person who believes he can live any way he wants because he has professed Christ is not demonstrating true saving faith (1 John 2:3-4). Our eternal security rests on the biblical teaching that those whom God justifies, He will also glorify (Romans 8:29-30). Those who are saved will indeed be conformed to the image of Christ through the process of sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11). When a person is saved, the Holy Spirit breaks the bondage of sin and gives the believer a new heart and a desire to seek holiness. Therefore a true Christian will desire to be obedient to God and will be convicted by the Holy Spirit when he sins. True Christians will never “live any way they want” because such behavior is impossible for someone who has been given a new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html#ixzz3ZwPrCCW2

Perseverance of the saints says, that a SAVED person will desire to obey God and to repent when they sin. If the don't they were never saved to begin with.

There is absolutely no room for "living any way one wants in disobedience to God" in Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother Mike said:

Every case of real faith in God takes works. Paul said we are not saved of our own works, or what we come up with.

Please provide Scripture to support the claim that "every case of real faith in God takes works".

A person can sit in the pews and think to themselves Jesus is Lord all day long. They never go to alter call because then the Jones will know they were not saved, they won't tell people at Work Jesus is their Lord if it comes up. If you confess me before men, Jesus said I will confess you before the Father and his angels.

There is a difference between our own works, works of the law, and stepping out in obeying God. If we believe Jesus is Lord, we go up and confess him before men, even get dunked in Water. If we really believe He is Lord.

This all sounds rather Pharisaical. The only difference is in what is being stressed for salvation. For them, it was circumcision. Seems your claim is to walk an aisle and water baptism. Please show me any reference to one getting saved by walking an aisle or water baptism in the Bible.

Abraham was justified by works. Not his good works, but he obeyed what God said to do by his faith.

He was saved long before Gen 15:6 was written. His works demonstrated his faith in God. Heb 11:17-19

And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.(Joh 9:7)

That didn't save him.

What happens if the guy just said, well................. Washing in that pool where animals drink out of is embarrassing. What will my neighbors think? Well, I will just believe I can see, forget the pool

Who cares "what if…"? Let's deal with "what is".

Does the guy still get his sight back?

No. He had to obey the command. But, this wasn't about getting saved, but getting sight. Apples and oranges.

Every thing we receive from God takes faith.

Except God's discipline. Heb 12:5

Faith needs a response or action. We confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus. Saying you just believe is not going to cut it.

This isn't about what one SAYS, but rather, what one BELIEVES.

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

There is an obedience to Faith. If you believe something, you speak as if it's true, you act as if it's true.
Let's take our blind guy for example. He was told to go wash in the pool of Siloam. What if he said I will go Wash at home instead?

The man that came to Jesus with Leprosy. Jesus cleaned him and said go show yourself to the priest and give an offering.
10 come to Jesus with Leprosy. Jesus said, go shew yourself to the priest without cleaning them.

And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests..............................(Luk 17:13-14)

Was any of this about getting saved? No, not at all.

Faith takes an action of what told to do. If you believe and lean not to your understanding, but do what God said do by faith, then miracles happen, even being born again, the greatest of all miracles.

The only action for salvation is the act of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, one receives eternal life. Jn 20:31

 

[JLB]

We know how people are saved; by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. That was Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

You forget that believe also means obey.

We are to obey the Gospel command to repent.

If we hear the Gospel, and now realize Jesus died for our sins, yet we never repent and turn away from Satan towards God, and continue to live a lifestyle of immorality, then our dead faith will not save us.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

and again

18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,
19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;
20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:18-21

and again

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

and again

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

We have been given Christ's righteousness, which means a righteousness that is void of any sin.

Because we obey God in something He commands us to do, we are still dependent upon the righteousness of Christ, for we still fall short is other areas.

If we do 99% of what God tells us to do everyday, we still are in violation of all His law...

Never the less, the word says that ...those who practice righteousness are righteous.

Practice carries the meaning of... as a lifestyle.

We are to continually grow and mature in this lifestyle of "practicing righteousness".

As we are faithful in little things, God will trust us with more.

Those who are walking as Apostles are not to be burdened with distributing food and other services that we are all called to start out doing.

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables.
Acts 6:2


JLB


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Acts 5:32

I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said about continuing to live a life that glorifies God and that we need Christ's righteousness to be saved.

This was my question....
"So because you refer being made righteous in Christ, are you saying the each time someone does works of faith, they are being made righteous again, in Christ?"

Sorry, I don't understand how your post answers this question. I know it sounds rather weird but could you answer with yes or no?
And if yes, than explain that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Reba said:
"are the righteous to continue to obey?"
JBL replied:

Yes... to continue to obey the command to repent, which means we are to continually remain turned to God.

To un-repent or to turn back from God to Satan, or another religion, after having turned to him...

This is the meaning that is presented in the phrase turn away, or fall away, or depart.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;Hebrews 3:12

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.Luke 8:13

Strong's Number: 868 - Aphistemi
Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

King James Word Usage - Total: 15
depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1

Once we obey the Gospel and repent towards God, we are to remain turned to him, to the end.

So, the conclusion of all this is that we must remain turned to Him to the end in order to be saved. Therefore, we hold on to our own salvation or let go of our own salvation. That is unscriptural to the max.

It is God alone who holds on to His children. He holds onto us. We do not hold on to Him.

Scripture NEVER EVER claims or even suggests that salvation is dependent upon perseverance or effort or abiding, or any other phrase anyone can think of.

Here is what the writer of Hebrews says, just before verse 12...

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6

To "hold fast" means to possess. We receive the gift of eternal life WHEN we believe in Christ. That is how we come to possess eternal life. Heb 3:5-6 does NOT mean that we have to hold on tightly to our gift of eternal life or we may lose it.

So yes, the righteous are obligated to obey the Gospel command, to remain in faith, or believe [obey] steadfast to the end.

Interesting word choice. "obligated". Unfortunately, this poster believes that we or obligated to keep our selves saved.

For the end of our faith is the salvation of our soul. 1 Peter 1:9

Another misunderstood verse. Seems your view here is that one isn't really saved until the 'end'. Well, the word 'telos' has a lot of nuanced meanings. Not just 'end'.

NASB 1 Pet 1:9 - obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

One of the nuanced meanings for 'telos' is fulfillment. iow, our souls are saved as a result of our faith. The outcome of our faith.

 

[JLB]

The only action for salvation is the act of believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, one receives eternal life. Jn 20:31

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said:

You forget that believe also means obey.

Wrong. It seems you've confused pisteuo with pietho. There is no suggestion of obedience in the word "pisteuo". It's all about trust, believe

pisteuō
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, placeconfidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which aman is impelled by a certain inner and higherprerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either inobtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Please cite the line that includes the concept of obedience in the meaning of "pisteou".

We are to obey the Gospel command to repent.

How about this: we are to repent. How is that different?

If we hear the Gospel, and now realize Jesus died for our sins, yet we never repent and turn away from Satan towards God, and continue to live a lifestyle of immorality, then our dead faith will not save us.

Whether one realizes this or not, this claim is nothing more or less than faith PLUS works for salvation. How is that different from the RCC?

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

The key here is "sanctified by faith in Me".

and again

18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,
19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;
20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.Acts 20:18-21

Hm. But you've just posted in this post about repenting from a certain lifestyle. This passage says nothing about repenting from any specific lifestyle, as your claim was. It's a change of mind about God and toward Christ. Obviously as Savior.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said this:
"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16"[/QUOTE]
There is nothing in this context to conclude that Paul was warning of loss of salvation. The phrase "sin leading to death" must be understood properly. The Bible notes many different types of death.
Physical - body and soul separated
Eternal - lake of fire, permanently separated from God
Spiritual - all humans are born separated from God
Temporal - loss of fellowship (1 Jn 1) because of sin
Sexual - Abraham's condition when God promised him an heir

Sin in the life of the believer does NOT lead to loss of salvation. It results in loss of fellowship with God. Just as in the human realm, a child and parent can lose fellowship because of the actions of the child.

 

[JLB]

I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said about continuing to live a life that glorifies God and that we need Christ's righteousness to be saved.

This was my question....
"So because you refer being made righteous in Christ, are you saying the each time someone does works of faith, they are being made righteous again, in Christ?"

No.

I'm saying when we obey the Gospel, to repent, we receive the gift of righteousness of Christ.

are you saying the each time someone does works of faith,

I don't use the term works of faith.

I use the term work of obedience.



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

There is absolutely no room for "living any way one wants in disobedience to God" in Calvinism.

That is the illogical argument. If one does not live as saved, then God never picked them in the first place. My point was they believe if God picked you then you have no choice but to live a "Saved" life. I asked what if God picked you, and you did not want to obey?

See that is the other problem, they have no way to know if God picked someone until the end of that persons life.
They claimed though it's not through the works of man or mans deeds.

If that person leaves Jesus, then they were never picked in the first place, despite 20 years of service to Him.

My point was, Calvinism, is for those with strong imaginations in the land of confusion.

No. He had to obey the command. But, this wasn't about getting saved, but getting sight. Apples and oranges.

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

[Be nice!! ToS 2.4]

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Confessing something, is also an action. In fact Jesus said we have what we believe AND SAY. Not just believe only. (Mark 11:23)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mar 16:16)

Here is another action in line with what someone believes. Jesus did not just say believe.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

here is a confession and a water dunking.

Faith is Faith is Faith. Faith needs a action to be active or it's dead.

 

[JLB]

JLB said:

Wrong. It seems you've confused pisteuo with pietho. There is no suggestion of obedience in the word "pisteuo". It's all about trust, believe

pisteuō
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, placeconfidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which aman is impelled by a certain inner and higherprerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either inobtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Please cite the line that includes the concept of obedience in the meaning of "pisteou".


How about this: we are to repent. How is that different?


Whether one realizes this or not, this claim is nothing more or less than faith PLUS works for salvation. How is that different from the RCC?


The key here is "sanctified by faith in Me".


Hm. But you've just posted in this post about repenting from a certain lifestyle. This passage says nothing about repenting from any specific lifestyle, as your claim was. It's a change of mind about God and toward Christ. Obviously as Savior.

You may want to read these passages of scripture.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

and again

18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,
19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews;
20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:18-21

and again

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

and again

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

The key here is "sanctified by faith in Me".

"By faith", carries the mean of the action of obedience.

Here is another lesson from James about this subject.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:21-24

The works James refers to is obedience.

The obedience that Abraham demonstrated towards God, in offering Issac.

This is called the obedience of faith.

This is what we are called to.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

No.

I'm saying when we obey the Gospel, to repent, we receive the gift of righteousness of Christ.

Why did you underline 'when'?

 

[Deborah13]

That is the illogical argument. If one does not live as saved, then God never picked them in the first place. My point was they believe if God picked you then you have no choice but to live a "Saved" life. I asked what if God picked you, and you did not want to obey?

You never asked me that question and I did not address that question.

What you did say is that Calvinism says that a person could sit around watching porn all day and be saved. In other words, live anyway they choose in sin.
I showed you that is not what Calvinism says at all, that what you said is a misrepresentation of Calvinism and the TULIP doctrine.

The obedience that Abraham demonstrated towards God, in offering Issac.

And that Rahab was justified by one act of "turning towards God". It was when she chose the God of Israel as her God and Redeemer. She acted on that choice.

It's kind of like marriage. A couple cannot just say they are married, they actually have to show themselves to be married in order for it to be legal, in right standing.
In each case in James they showed by their actions that they had a righteous (right standing) relationship with God.

 

[Brother Mike]

I showed you that is not what Calvinism says at all, that what you said is a misrepresentation of Calvinism and the TULIP doctrine.

I did not misrepresent the doctrine "IN MY VIEW" They believe man is saved not by some foreknowledge but by God's Choice. God picks who gets saved, and man has nothing to do with it. That is their view.

Now for them to say in the statement below that a man picked would serve and obey God based on what they see as the mans works is a contradiction based on what they said above.

So, if they saw someone who claimed to be saved watch Porn all day and eat potato chips, they would say by the mans works and their own Judgement that the man was never picked by God.

Though they still claim it's not based on what man does, or God's foreknowledge but what God elects.

I did not misrepresent Calvinism. It's a convoluted, illogical mess of a doctrine. Which was my point.

Be blessed.

 

[Deborah13]

"Brother Mike said: ↑

What happens if we don't lay aside every weight and sin? Calvinist believe that despite that, man can not interfere with God's Sovereign will. So we can sit back, eat potato chips, watch porn all day and God will drag us to the finish line. That sounds like a pretty good plan actually."

I did not misrepresent the doctrine "IN MY VIEW" They believe man is saved not by some foreknowledge but by God's Choice. God picks who gets saved, and man has nothing to do with it. That is their view.

I didn't address this.

Now for them to say in the statement below that a man picked would serve and obey God based on what they see as the mans works is a contradiction based on what they said above.

I didn't address this.

So, if they saw someone who claimed to be saved watch Porn all day and eat potato chips, they would say by the mans works and their own Judgement that the man was never picked by God.

If he died in that condition... Most likely. From what I have read of Calvin's own words, I can fairly say, definitely he would say that man was never saved, "picked by God" as you worded it.