Bible Study The Godship of Jesus the Christ...

[JLB]

This bickering is getting wearisome.
jocor, is Jesus divine?

If you say 'yes', we'll know exactly where you're at concerning that. If you say 'no', we'll drop the subject and move on. JLB, another thread should be opened to discuss the issue, IMO.

This bickering is getting wearisome.

This is a discussion, about a controversial subject.



Define divine?

WE can partake of a divine nature, yet not be God.

I said Jocor believes Jesus was just a man, and is lord, as Abraham is a lord.

This means he denies Jesus as Lord, Lord being God, ie: The Son of God, or God the Son.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Part of the Godhead. Let's just let jocor answer and then you two can hash it out in another thread, okay?

I haven't had a lot of time or energy to contribute to my own threads lately and I don't want to see them get closed before I participate in them.

Part of the Godhead as God? God the Son?

Is that what you mean.

I can tell you now, he believes Jesus had no existence, before He was born of the virgin Mary.

He believes Jesus was only a man, just like the Muslims, and the Jews who reject Him as Lord.


JLB

 

[jocor]

You called me a liar.

Now is the time to prove whether or not, what I said was a lie.


I made it clear, that Jesus is Lord [God].

You made it clear, Jesus is a lord [man].

Like Abraham was called lord in the OT. The word lord is used with the lower case l, when referring to a man.

“No, my lord, hear me: I give you the field and the cave that isin it; I give it to you in the presence of the sons of my people. I give it to you. Bury your dead!” Genesis 23:11

If that is not your claim, then say so right here and now.

Which do you confess, about Jesus?

Lord = God
or
a lord - man

If you say Jesus is Lord, [God] then I will delete my post, and apologize.

If you say Jesus is a lord, man, like Abraham, [as you have claimed in the past] then you must apologize.


Which is it, Jocor?


JLB

Neither. Yeshua is not my "lord", but my "Lord". The word "Lord" with a capital "L" does not denote only "God". It also denotes the "Son of God":

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah) our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah) our Lord.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah), the Son of the Father, in truth and love.​

Yeshua is not my "Lord God", but the Son of my "Lord God".

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
​

The real "Lord God" (a specific being) will give the throne to Yeshua (a different being). The Lord God does not give the throne to the Lord God.

 

[JLB]

Neither. Yeshua is not my "lord", but my "Lord". The word "Lord" with a capital "L" does not denote only "God". It also denotes the "Son of God":

The translators use a Capital to denote the person is God.

Which do you confess, about Jesus?

Lord = God
or
a lord - man

It should be obvious, since you refuse to come right out and answer.

I will stay with my original claim.

Your claim is Jesus is just a man, and is a lord, like Abraham was called lord by Sarah.

That would certainly qualify as holding Jesus in low esteem, which is a nice way of saying, you blaspheme the Son of God, and deny Him as Lord.

Jesus is our great God and Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

Furthermore you teach that Jesus did not exist, before He was born of a virgin, yet the scriptures plainly teach us, He created all things and is before all things.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17


Reba, has read what you have taught this Forum, and I agree with her.

You hold Jesus in low esteem.



JLB

 

[reba]

This thread is opened for discussion on the different views of just who Christ is. His names.. All that kind of stuff... any bickering will be dealt with as quick as i am able...
Knowing the subject is very emotional please be careful of your wording... no personal attacks...

 

[jocor]

Before we get into this thread, I need to clarify some things.

1) I did not create this thread. Reba did by moving posts from another thread into this one.
2) I did not create the name of this thread.
3) Posts #1-13 concern the prophecy in Jeremiah 33 and have nothing to do with the "Godship" of Messiah.
4) I posted Jer 33 to disprove JLB's teaching that the Levitical priesthood is abolished. Therefore, posts 1-13 should have remained in the previous law thread.

 

[reba]

Just so there is no doubt jocor is totally correct in these 2 statements...
1) I did not create this thread. Reba did by moving posts from another thread into this one.
2) I did not create the name of this thread.

 

[jocor]

This is a discussion, about a controversial subject.

Define divine?

Yes. Someone needs to define "divine".

This from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:

1. 1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>
   
   
2. 2 a : supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b : heavenly, godlike

I accept all these definitions except 1b.

Which of those definitions am I asked to believe?

I said Jocor believes Jesus was just a man, and is lord, as Abraham is a lord.

Yeshua is more than "just a man". He was conceived miraculously, lived a sinless life and was given all authority and power by his Father YHWH. He is more than just a "lord" like Abraham since he is greater than Abraham. YHWH made him to be our "Lord", the second most powerful "Lord" in the universe (his Father YHWH being the most powerful "Lord").

This means he denies Jesus as Lord, Lord being God, ie: The Son of God, or God the Son.

I do not deny Yeshua as "Lord". The incorrect belief that bearing the title "Lord" makes Jesus "God" is the problem.

 

[jocor]

The translators use a Capital to denote the person is God.

I believe they capitalized "Lord" out of respect and to distinguish Yeshua as a greater Lord than all others (except his Father YHWH).

Which do you confess, about Jesus?

Lord = God
or
a lord - man

Neither. I confess him as Lord = man.

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah). = "Lord"
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus (Yeshua) of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:= man
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (Yeshua Messiah); = man​

I made it clear, that Jesus is Lord [God].

Yeshua is not my "Lord God", but the Son of my "Lord God".

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
The real "Lord God" (a specific being) will give the throne to Yeshua (a different being). The Lord God does not give the throne to the Lord God.

You did not reply to this. How can Yeshua be the "Lord God" if the "Lord God" is giving him the throne?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

jocor, cut to the chase. Is Jesus deity? From man's perspective, is he distinguished from the rest of us by him being a God?

 

[jocor]

jocor, cut to the chase. Is Jesus deity? From man's perspective, is he distinguished from the rest of us by him being a God?

No. He is the Son of God. Both theos and elohim (translated "God" or "god" in English) are used for beings that are not "God" or are not "the only true God". The question is, are they used for Yeshua in the sense that he is "the only true God"? I do not believe that for several reasons.

1) John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah), whom thou hast sent. (parenthesis mine)​

These are our Savior's words. He is praying to his Father (YHWH) and calling Him "the only true God". He does not say that of himself.

2) Mark 12:28-34 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”
Jesus (Yeshua) answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD 9YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one.
‘And you shall love the LORD (YHWH) your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. “And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
“And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
Now when Jesus (Yeshua) saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him." NKJV (bold and parenthesis mine)
​

Although Yeshua did not specifically say "there is no other but He" the scribe understood that meaning to be implied in the word "echad" or "one" used in Deut 6:4 (the Shema). Yeshua acknowledged that the scribe answered wisely (discreetly) thereby confirming the scribe's correct understanding of the meaning of the Shema. This was the Jewish understanding of the Shema in the days of Yeshua.

Additionally, the word "one" in Greek is "heis" meaning, "a primary numeral; one." There is no compound unity found in this Greek word as is supposed in the Hebrew "echad." "Heis" is the word used for "one" in the Septuagint of Deut 6:4 and Ezek 33:24.

Again, Yeshua did not include himself as part of the one God of Deut 6:4. Why not? What a golden opportunity to teach that he was deity/divine/God.

3) All the OT saints understood the fact that there is only one true God (Deut 4:35-39; 1Sam 2:2; 1 Kgs 8:23,60; 2 Kgs 19:15; Isa 43:10; 44:6; 45:5, 21; Jer 10:10; Joel 2:27; Mal 2:10).

4) The NT teaches us there is only one God (1Co 8:4-6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19).
​

1Tim 2:5 is especially instructive in that it makes a clear distinction between the one God and Yeshua our mediator. Even after his resurrection, he is in heaven mediating between God (Father YHWH) and man. We do not have "God" as our mediator, but "the man Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua)." Paul calls him a "man" even after his resurrection and ascension.

5) Mt.27:46; Jn.17:3; 20:17; Eph.1:17; Heb. 1:9; and Rev.3:12 all teach that Yeshua has a God. If he has a God and he is God, then there are two Gods.​

There are many more Scriptures I could post, but this should suffice to convince even the biggest sceptics that there is only one true God, that He is a separate being from His Son Yeshua and that Yeshua is not part of "God".

So, to answer your second question, "From man's perspective, is he distinguished from the rest of us by him being a God?"

Since the words used for "God" are "elohim" and "theos" (words used for beings other than the only true God) and since the verses I posted show Yeshua to not be the only true God, then he must be an elohim or theos in a different way than YHWH is. Yeshua is a lesser elohim and a lesser theos. To translate those words as "God" (capital G") when they refer to Yeshua is wrong because our English word "God" does not carry the sense of a lesser elohim or theos when applied to men as they do in Hebrew and Greek. Therefore, the word should either be translated "mighty one" or left untranslated when applied to Yeshua.

I would really appreciate it if anyone replying to this post would first address what I wrote before replying with a bunch of proof texts of your own. I have no problem addressing your proof texts AFTER you address mine.

 

[JLB]

Neither. I confess him as Lord = man.
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah). = "Lord"
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus (Yeshua) of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:= man
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (Yeshua Messiah); = man

Ok. So you believe Jesus was only a man, and has no existence before He was born.


Yes, The Lord God became flesh, and took on the sins of the world.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh...
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV



Lord that is capitalized in the scriptures is a reference to the Lord God.

Example: Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Here is an OT example of a reference to Jesus, coming with His saints, and the upper case Lord is used.

lord that is in lower case, refers to a man.

Example: No, my lord, hear me: I give you the field and the cave that is in it; I give it to you in the presence of the sons of my people. I give it to you. Bury your dead!” Genesis 23:11

Can you show a scripture whereby lord [lower case] is used to reference Jesus Christ?

or

Can you show a scripture from the OT whereby the word Lord, [upper case] is used to reference just a man?



JLB

 

[jocor]

Ok. So you believe Jesus was only a man, and has no existence before He was born.


Yes, The Lord God became flesh, and took on the sins of the world.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh...
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV



Lord that is capitalized in the scriptures is a reference to the Lord God.

Example: Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Here is an OT example of a reference to Jesus, coming with His saints, and the upper case Lord is used.

lord that is in lower case, refers to a man.

Example: No, my lord, hear me: I give you the field and the cave that is in it; I give it to you in the presence of the sons of my people. I give it to you. Bury your dead!” Genesis 23:11

Can you show a scripture whereby lord [lower case] is used to reference Jesus Christ?

or

Can you show a scripture from the OT whereby the word Lord, [upper case] is used to reference just a man?



JLB

I will not reply to this until you address my last post.

 

[JLB]

You did not reply to this. How can Yeshua be the "Lord God" if the "Lord God" is giving him the throne?

Jesus is the Lord God, who became flesh, who became the man Jesus Christ.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, 1 Timothy 3:16


How can anyone be anything other than the Lord God, and sit on the throne of the Lord God?


Jesus is the Lord God, the Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would really appreciate it if anyone replying to this post would first address what I wrote before replying with a bunch of proof texts of your own. I have no problem addressing your proof texts AFTER you address mine.

That would be like asking someone to disprove the assertion that the sky is green but telling them they can't use a plain reference to the sky being blue.

See, in a court of law, where evidence is examined to establish the truth of a matter, there is this concept of identifying which one of two or more pieces of seemingly contradictory evidence is the more compelling. In this case you're trying to argue a point using less explicit verses and saying they should override a verse that is very explicit and direct about the matter in question.

In Bible study, obviously the verse that plainly establishes the matter in question is used to interpret the one that is not as explicit. It's only common sense. But you are insisting that we not use the straightforward verses in our attempt to prove your less straightforward verses, that need explanation, don't mean what you say they do. That's unreasonable. If our verses were not straightforward and open to interpretation like your's then you can ask that. But as it is, the Bible does plainly say Jesus is God and does not require us to dissect the verses you have provided to prove Jesus is not God.

Good Bible study takes ALL the pieces of evidence into consideration. More compelling verses are used to interpret less compelling ones. The of course there is the matter of context, which in this case really is not a major consideration, IMO.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see any reason to examine your verses in light of plain verses like what JLB posted and these...

28“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28 NASB)

"27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”" (John 20:27-28 NASB)

 

[Roro1972]

The translators use a Capital to denote the person is God.

Which do you confess, about Jesus?

Lord = God
or
a lord - man

It should be obvious, since you refuse to come right out and answer.

I will stay with my original claim.

Your claim is Jesus is just a man, and is a lord, like Abraham was called lord by Sarah.

That would certainly qualify as holding Jesus in low esteem, which is a nice way of saying, you blaspheme the Son of God, and deny Him as Lord.

Jesus is our great God and Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

Furthermore you teach that Jesus did not exist, before He was born of a virgin, yet the scriptures plainly teach us, He created all things and is before all things.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17


Reba, has read what you have taught this Forum, and I agree with her.

You hold Jesus in low esteem.



JLB

Phill 2: 5
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Jlb, Im sure you agree with this; I wonder does anyone else

 

[jocor]

That would be like asking someone to disprove the assertion that the sky is green but telling them they can't use a plain reference to the sky being blue.

See, in a court of law, where evidence is examined to establish the truth of a matter, there is this concept of identifying which one of two or more pieces of seemingly contradictory evidence is the more compelling. In this case you're trying to argue a point using less explicit verses and saying they should override a verse that is very explicit and direct about the matter in question.

In Bible study, obviously the verse that plainly establishes the matter in question is used to interpret the one that is not as explicit. It's only common sense. But you are insisting that we not use the straightforward verses in our attempt to prove your less straightforward verses, that need explanation, don't mean what you say they do. That's unreasonable. If our verses were not straightforward and open to interpretation like your's then you can ask that. But as it is, the Bible does plainly say Jesus is God and does not require us to dissect the verses you have provided to prove Jesus is not God.

Good Bible study takes ALL the pieces of evidence into consideration. More compelling verses are used to interpret less compelling ones. The of course there is the matter of context, which in this case really is not a major consideration, IMO.

I don't think I'm asking too much or anything too difficult. I'm not asking you to prove anything. I am simply asking you to address the verses I posted. For example, I posted John 17:3 with commentary. Explain to me why my understanding is wrong. If you must use other verses to assist you, then do so, but do not neglect to address John 17:3 in the process, etc. JLB's post #32 totally ignores everything I posted in post #31. If I reply to it and go down that rabbit trail, my post will be buried and neglected.

 

[JLB]

1Tim 2:5 is especially instructive in that it makes a clear distinction between the one God and Yeshua our mediator. Even after his resurrection, he is in heaven mediating between God (Father YHWH) and man. We do not have "God" as our mediator, but "the man Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua)." Paul calls him a "man" even after his resurrection and ascension.

Of course Jesus Christ is a Man, as He called Himself the Son of Man, which refers to a descendant of Adam [man].

He became a Man. [God was manifested in the flesh...1 Timothy 3:16]

He became a little lower than the angels.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

If it says He was made a little lower than the angels, then surely He was higher than the angels as God.

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Hebrews 1:8-9

and again

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”?
Hebrews 1:5


JLB

 

[JLB]

Phill 2: 5
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Jlb, Im sure you agree with this; I wonder does anyone else