The Good News/The Bad News

[GodsGrace]

Do you recognize in your question the spirit of the questions Paul writes in Romans 9: “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Romans 9:19–21 (ESV)​

FWIW, I am confident that no one is sent to hell that has not chosen to go to hell. Left in our natural condition, we are all by nature children of wrath and willingly choose to reject God's salvation. Just like unrestrained water flows downhill, we, without God's intervention, will pursue sin and live in the passions of our flesh. But God chooses to be rich in mercy and makes some us alive together with Christ. Ephesians 2:3-10 (ESV)

What the Bible refers to as boasting is not the equivalent of pride. One type of boasting that is spoken against in the Bible (there is boasting that is allowed) is when a person is able to take credit for some aspect of their salvation, e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)

Regarding your Christmas gift, you rightfully can "boast" that the only reason you now have your Christmas present is that you accepted it. You could have not accepted it and tossed it in the trash. So your actions were absolutely necessary for you to now have your gift.

I do agree that acceptance is part of our salvation process. But I am also asserting that I think that it is a work on God's part to cause us to see, desire, accept, and obey the Gospel. From beginning to end, He is the cause of our salvation. We have no reason to boast.

Hospes,
I hear this all the time....
From Augustine too -
God is responsible for who goes to heaven,
but He is not responsible for who goes to hell.
This, of course, denies double predestination.

Could you please explain to me how the above is possible?

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. But this does not address the crux of the discussion. WHY DOES ONE BELIEVE?

Postulate: God is the cause of your faith

1. If one believes there is a gift inside [because God caused him to believe] but doesn’t put forth the effort to open it, will one be saved? This never happens per John 6:39
2. If one believes there is a gift inside [because God caused him to believe] but does put forth the effort to open it, will one be saved? Always, per John 6:39. The cause is God and the effect (result) is your believing and things associated with believing.

Postulate: The individual is the cause of his faith

1. If one does not believe there is a gift inside [because that person did not believe] will one be saved? This is the default/starting position (unless you believe in Double Predestination) called the depravity of man. He will not be saved. NO ONE SEEKS GOD
2. If one does believe there is a gift inside [because that person believes he is the cause of his belief] will one be saved? Maybe. There is a problem with this statement as it relies upon a false premise: that the cause of faith is the individual. Evidence of this was given in previous posts above that clearly defines WORK and that if Man is the cause of his faith then it is a WORK. Since salvation by works contradicts Scripture, one can conclude the premise is false. Also, NO ONE SEEKS GOD, John 1:12-13, yahda, yahda, yahda .... But it is still possible for a person to believe (I would say incorrectly believe) that he believes he is the cause of his faith ... in that case the person may and may no be correct. If he is saved it is because God caused him to believe and he just has his theology wrong (IMO). If he is not saved then God did not cause him to believe, so his belief is not salvific.

The book of James is another can of worms (topic).
Even Luther didn't care for the book of James.
Anyways....
James is about works that will justify believers before man, not God. (this is not exegesis 101 ...)

So, if you mean:

1. Was Abraham justified to men because of his works, the answer is YES or
2. Was Abraham justified to God because of his works, the answer is NO.

You say above (highlighted by me) that the book of James is about man justifying himself before man
and not God.

First....God justifies.
It is HE that declares us not guilty at the time of our salvation.
Man does NOT declare us not guilty.

Second, I'd like to know where this idea comes from.
Is there a specific verse?

 

[GodsGrace]

The faith is yours, the cause is Gods.

Example:
You have no faith that I can high jump over 7 feet. I jump over 7 feet. You now believe. The faith is yours, the cause is me.

Law of Causality: Every effect has a cause.

Your faith is an EFFECT and must have a CAUSE. You may argue that the cause is "libertarian free will" or God changing your mind. In either case, the faith is yours but the cause it something else. (Which leaves the question ... if your faith is "libertarian free will" where did that come from, the ether? .... remember "libertarian free will" is the ability to do "A" or "B" in the same circumstances (indifference).

Everything depends on your belief about free will.
If you come to believe that have have free will....
all your ideas about calvinism would come crashing down.

I've posted several verses about free will...
I never received a reply to them because, really, there is no answer.

The bible teaches that we have free will and that God does not coerce us into any moral action or any
other type of action for that matter.

 

[jerry63935]

I can take a dead body and artificially make it have a temperature of 98.6 degF and using a ventilator I can cause it to breathe, but that does not make the body alive. In the same way, you can, by force of one's will, produce obedience and yet still be dead in one's sins.

PSST THE SPIRIT QUICKENS breaths new life into us the moment we are saved. do you believe i am saved even though i disagree with your doctrine . i stand by free will

 

[Hospes]

PSST THE SPIRIT QUICKENS breaths new life into us the moment we are saved.

Agreed!. Did I write something that led you to think I did not agree?

do you believe i am saved even though i disagree with your doctrine . i stand by free will

What a strange question! The last thing you should be concerned with is my view of your salvation! It is all in the hands of Christ and I am sure He is not concerned with what I think on the matter. Furthermore, I can assure you that your salvation does not hinge on whether or not we agree on free will.

Just curious: did you see and understand the point of my post? Was it lost on you? Not asking if you agree; just asking if you understood.

 

[jerry63935]

Just curious: did you see and understand the point of my post? Was it lost on you? Not asking if you agree; just asking if you understood.

i more than understand your points do you understand others . i will assure you i was not worried if you considered me saved. it was a point i must admit it has been years since i discussed calvinism vs free will. since you think i am saved by free will. what is the big deal ? to be honest the calvinism process to be saved is simply not exactly scripture based . you /calvinism re defines words for instance

2 Peter 3:9​

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” the 3 bold underlined groups of words you would say?


i been down this road many times in carm forum and email correspondence with a man trying to convert me over to calvinism .he soon gave up i countered him scripture with scripture . see the word plainly tells us he is longsuffering to usward.. not any perish . see the night i got saved i heard God speak to me telling me it was NOW or Never. i took the now . i been told i am wrong on thinking what i heard.. i don't think I KNOW . there is a know so salvation i already had the faith to be saved . i knew before i ever stepped in that church house what i should do. God draws us in he uses conviction . this can go on for a long period of time his longsuffering . there can come a time when we reject God .he will allow us to be turned over to a reprobate mind.

Proverbs 1:23-25

King James Version

​

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

the irresistible Grace teaching is found no place in scripture. we can refuse/ reject the Lord.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Are you aware in Greek that both the noun (pistis = faith) and the infinitive, pisteuein (to believe) are from the same Greek root, peitho, which most naturally means to persuade and convince (Acts 18:4; 28:23). There is no true Hebrew equivalent (TDNT vol 6, pp, 1-2).

Pistis means "confidence, trust" , "conviction", "certainty", and "firm belief" (Prov 1:30). It can mean faithfulness and trust (1 Thess 1:8; Phlm 51) (TDNT 6:177). As faithfulness, it is used rarely in the NT. Another related Greek noun, pistos means faithful and trusting (see 1 Cor 4:2, 17; 7:25). It refers to "the loyalty of faith (Rev 2:10; 17:14).

Pisteuein means "to rely on; to trust; to believe." Sometimes it refers "to believe in" (Gal 2:16 ESV) (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol 6, p. 203).

Oz

Thank you for taking the time to point out what commentaries have to say. As you know from our past discussions I’m not a big fan of commentaries because they confuse the body of Christ with the opinions on man, especially in this case of what believe and faith mean, whereby many people use faith and believe interchangeably not understanding the basic difference in the two words, one being a noun and one being a verb.


One is something we receive from God when He speaks to us, and is substance, something we have.


The other is a verb and is something we do.


I guess my question is... why are we looking at Bible dictionaries for a meaning of a biblical word, when the Bible itself defines for us what faith is?


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Faith is what we have, before we have the reality of what God desires us to have, whether salvation, healing, a job, a wife a husband, financial miracle or whatever, if we will believe, and demonstrate that we believe by confessing with our mouth, or doing whatever it is that God tells us to do, which is how faith comes to us.


Can’t we all find common ground in the words that the Bible defines for us?


If this person uses a certain Bible dictionary and another uses a different then there is grounds for division. But if we all agree on the definition the Bible uses, we can find common ground.


Doctrines are made up of words.

Misunderstand a biblical word and you will likely misunderstand the doctrine, especially with the word believe.

Many people understand the word “believe” to mean “realizes that something exists“ such as God.


Oh, I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God.


Therefore they believe by “believing” these things they are saved, and they go about there lives thinking they have all they need to “go to heaven” when they die.


The biblical word believe carries a much deeper meaning.


Please don’t get me wrong, I admire and appreciate you and the work you are doing in this Forum and all you do for people in your country. I can’t thank you enough.

You are very gifted and I truly am thankful for you.


Please consider this as a discussion point and not me trying to argue.



JLB

 

[JLB]

the irresistible Grace teaching is found no place in scripture. we can refuse/ reject the Lord.

So true, sir.

 

[jasonc]

I,say again,plenty of so called spirit filled churches where by its said we dont believe in commentaries and they don't even agree

en route to my church I pass by two of them .they are less then a mile apart.

some don't even half a statement of faith ,just well the holy ghost led me here .

another is a oneness church.i came from a cult ,yeah about that

 

[Fastfredy0]

You say above (highlighted by me) that the book of James is about man justifying himself before man
and not God.

First....God justifies.

Agreed. God justifies us before from his perspective. James is about us justifying ourselves before men (otherwise, James and Paul have contradictory statements) So, Christ died for you and by your faith you are justified to God. By your action you are justified to man.

It is HE that declares us not guilty at the time of our salvation.
Man does NOT declare us not guilty.

Agreed

Second, I'd like to know where this idea comes from.
Is there a specific verse?

It's a complex issue. See post #276. I doubt you will agree. Perhaps @oz agrees with me and post #276, and if so you might be willing to listen to him (perhaps he doesn't). I can tell by previous post the JLB does not agree (assuming I understand him). Good luck.

 

[Hospes]

since you think i am saved by free will. what is the big deal ?

Hmmm....wouldn't it fair to rather write you think you are saved by free will? How'd get the idea I think this? (Really struggling how you get what you get out of what I write.)

to be honest the calvinism process to be saved is simply not exactly scripture based.

I realize you believe this, but do understand that people of goodwill may disagree with you? Or is your understanding of scripture the final authority on the interpretation of scripture?

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” the 3 bold underlined groups of words you would say?

I'd be glad to discuss this verse with you. I'll try to not redefine any of the words in it. Let me know if I do. Here it is in a more modern translation:

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)​

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.​

I agree with you; God wills that all should come to repentance. The questions I have for you are, "If God wills that all come to repentance, then why don't they? Is it that He is incapable of carrying out His own will?"

 

[jerry63935]

we dont believe in commentaries

honestly this entire thing about commentaries is crazy. evry thing i read in here is nothing but a commentary .we read books which are commentaries . we send people to school to learn the Bible they use live commentaries teachers telling you what the scripture means .its ok to use a commentary just remember its not the Bible

 

[Fastfredy0]

Everything depends on your belief about free will.
If you come to believe that have have free will....

Where does "libertarian free will" (indifference) come from ???

Aside: You should study the doctrine of "prevenient grace" as it supports your contention in regard to "libertarian free will" and the depravity of man. (I assume you haven't, as you never mention it). You can add it to your quiver of arrows (arguments) supporting "libertarian free will".

I've posted several verses about free will...
I never received a reply to them because, really, there is no answer.

I seen lots of replies. Hospes begged you for a definition which you never supplied. As a definition is the foundation of the discussion, how could one proceed. Also, you don't accept the dictionary as the authoritative source of the English language. This makes communication difficult when defining words/terms. (IMO)

The bible teaches that we have free will and that God does not coerce us into any moral action or any
other type of action for that matter.

Ah, the "libertarian free will" free will verses. Give us a list. Study "prevenient grace" and you may find 4 flimsy verses.

Re: "God does not coerce us into any moral action" ... this denies the work of the Spirit in those that have been regenerated.

1. John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as he Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
2. John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
3. John 16:13But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth
4. yahda, yahda, yahda

 

[jerry63935]

"If God wills that all come to repentance, then why don't they? Is it that He is incapable of carrying out His own will?"

two words FREE WILL did anyone drag you to the altar hold a gun or any other type persuasion .the time you got saved .? BTW i have had that question used many times . i been called a freewiller false teacher few other in carm. you guys can present your case .but it will not fly

 

[jerry63935]

Aside: You should study the doctrine of "prevenient grace" as it supports your contention in regard to "libertarian free will" and the depravity of man. (I assume you haven't, as you never mention it). You can add it to your quiver of arrows (arguments) supporting "libertarian free will".

all these phrases are man made .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Tangential observation ... I noticed at some people state they don't like/use/trust commentaries .... yet most (all?) the discourse on the thread is people's commentaries.
*interesting*

 

[jasonc]

honestly this entire thing about commentaries is crazy. evry thing i read in here is nothing but a commentary .we read books which are commentaries . we send people to school to learn the Bible they use live commentaries teachers telling you what the scripture means .its ok to use a commentary just remember its not the Bible

i know ,I posted a joke about on fb and a deacon laughed and I told him this on fb.

I don't believe in commenteries,but let me tell you,what I believe God says about..

 

[jasonc]

Tangential observation ... I noticed at some people state they don't like/use/trust commentaries .... yet most (all?) the discourse on the thread is people's commentaries.
*interesting*

strange isn't it

 

[jerry63935]

Tangential observation fancy words we usually just say i reckon so or you might just have a point

 

[Hopeful]

O.K. ... let's see if your premise and conclusion works.

Premise1: The cause [salvation] is available to all men who seek the cause.
Premise2: I am a American Indian in the year 1292 who seeks to be saved (live forever)
Premise3&4: Faith cometh by hearing (Romans 10:17) and only by hearing as there is ONE Gospel (Gal. 1:8)
Premise5: The American Indian has no way to hearing the gospel
Conclusion: Your premise #1 is false OR no one seeks the cause (salvation)

Nobody sought the Lord, as He isn't hiding the good news from anyone

Let's be reasonable ...
1) if God died for everyone without exception and
2) if He wished all to be saved without exception and
3) if God is all-powerful then
4) it stands to reason that God would ensure everyone got to hear the gospel as that is a perquisite for salvation. Thus, each of premises 1 through 3 is suspect. (Aside: I assume we both feel premise 3 is true)

It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)
The "unhearing" will be judged on/by their own consciences.