The Good News/The Bad News

[Hospes]

Context has nothing to do with what jerry63935 posted and what you replied.

Oh well...I gave it my best effort.

I see your reply as not being totally honest.

Somewhere along the way, I learned a general rule regarding relationships: If there is no trust, then there is no foundation to have any relationship. If you find that I am dishonest, then I strongly encourage you to stop engaging me. You should feel free to comment on what I write - and I'll do the same for what you write - but it's best to avoid any direct interaction.

 

[JLB]

If there is no trust, then there is no foundation to have any relationship.

Amen sir.

Well said.

I’m sure we can all agree on this.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)
The "unhearing" will be judged on/by their own consciences.

Re: The "unhearing" will be judged on/by their own consciences.
I need clarification. I agree they will be judged. Are you saying anything that has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? If so, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how they are saved please. If not, then the point of my previous post stands unchallenged IMO as restated below:
1) if God died for everyone without exception and
2) if He wished all to be saved without exception and
3) if God is all-powerful then
4) it stands to reason that God would ensure everyone got to hear the gospel as that is a perquisite for salvation. Thus, each of premises 1 through 3 is suspect. (Aside: I assume we both feel premise 3 is true)

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you're sure that American Indian was lost?
He who seeks God, finds Him.
So many verses --- you know them.

Again, you are implying another gospel by which one can be saved. Please explain how one who doesn't hear the gospel is saved ...
is it by works, if so what works and where did you get this information keeping Gal. 1:8 in mind
is it be faith, if so what must one believe and where did you get this information keeping Gal. 1:8 in mind

Explain the apparent contradiction of Gal. 1:8

Also, you're "Let's be reasonable" numbers 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 are also wrong.
God WANTS everyone to be saved...

If that is true, explain the argument (numbers 1 and 2 and 3 and 4) I gave you. Your response so far lacks foundation.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Paul and James teach the same principle of faith; the obedience of faith.


God is the one who justifies a man. We do not justify ourselve

We can't even agree to use a dictionary to define words, so I am sure we won't be able to untangle James which even gave Luther problems.

 

[Hopeful]

JLB,
At first glance, it might seem to some that Paul and James are in disagreement...
however, I can agree with you that they are not.

Paul explained that we are not saved by works but by faith.
I think all Christians understand this initial salvation and how it can only be by faith.

But then, yes, we must obey Jesus or we cannot be His disciples.
Both James and Paul believed this and Paul stressed the TYPE of life we should be living in each of his epistles.
Paul never stated that faith alone will save eternally.


Paul to:

Titus 3:1-2
1Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
2to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.


Romans 2:13
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


and many more verses by Paul to show that he certainly believed in obedience.

The "works" Paul was addressing were the works of the Law.
He showed that circumcision, dietary laws, sabbaths, feast keeping etc. were not necessary for salvation.
The "works" James was addressing were manifestations by converts of Godly behavior among those on earth.
The one are unnecessary and the other ones are the natural occurrences of those with the divine nature.

Those who misunderstand this often infer we can still commit sin but call ourselves Christians because doing any good is a "forbidden work".

 

[Hopeful]

Re: The "unhearing" will be judged on/by their own consciences.
I need clarification. I agree they will be judged. Are you saying anything that has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? If so, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how they are saved please.

Did Enoch, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, or Solomon ever hear our gospel?
Will you condemn them for that?
Men will be judged by their consciences, whether they hear the gospel or not.

If not, then the point of my previous post stands unchallenged IMO as restated below:
1) if God died for everyone without exception and
2) if He wished all to be saved without exception and
3) if God is all-powerful then
4) it stands to reason that God would ensure everyone got to hear the gospel as that is a perquisite for salvation. Thus, each of premises 1 through 3 is suspect. (Aside: I assume we both feel premise 3 is true)

God created men who have attained the ability to separate good from evil. It happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of...knowledge of good and evil.
We will be judged on how we act accordingly.

BTW, it isn't a new gospel, as it is written of in Romans 2:14-16.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh well...I gave it my best effort.

Somewhere along the way, I learned a general rule regarding relationships: If there is no trust, then there is no foundation to have any relationship. If you find that I am dishonest, then I strongly encourage you to stop engaging me. You should feel free to comment on what I write - and I'll do the same for what you write - but it's best to avoid any direct interaction.

You mean you TRUST everyone you speak to?
I doubt that too.

You have never answered a post of mine in a way that is not
condescending. I do believe that this is because you have no answer....
I don't only listen to what you're saying up front...
I hear what you believe in the background.

If you find it too difficult to address my points, then by all means
you are not required to reply to my posts.

But, as I've said before....
I will be commenting on yours.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hopeful stated: The "unhearing" [those who have not heard the gospel FF] will be judged on/by their own consciences.

My Question:
I need clarification. I agree they will be judged. Are you saying anyone that has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? If so, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how they are saved please.

Your Answer:

Did Enoch, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, or Solomon ever hear our gospel?
Will you condemn them for that?
Men will be judged by their consciences, whether they hear the gospel or not.

Did Enoch, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, or Solomon ever hear our gospel?
Will you condemn them for that? NO and NO

I answered your question. My turn (again).
Aside: I didn't think your would answer my question directly.

I will try one but I doubt you will answer. There's an American indian in the year 1232 ...
Are you saying that the American indian of 1232 who has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? (Yes or No)
If Yes, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how that person is saved ... then please and explain Gal. 1:8

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, you are implying another gospel by which one can be saved. Please explain how one who doesn't hear the gospel is saved ...
is it by works, if so what works and where did you get this information keeping Gal. 1:8 in mind
is it be faith, if so what must one believe and where did you get this information keeping Gal. 1:8 in mind

Explain the apparent contradiction of Gal. 1:8

How many gospels do you think there could possibly be?
There is one set of books that make up the good news --- which this thread is about.
I don't really know any other gospel.

I sometimes ponder the fact that John Calvin taught another gospel.
It certainly isn't the one taught in the N.T. and believed by the Early Christians.
And I don't mean all the way up to Augustine -
I mean the ECF's....up to 325 AD
The Council of Nicaea.

As to your question, the answer is this:
Man has ALWAYS been saved by faith.


As to Galatians 1:8....yes, I'd say that is referring
to a different God, a different gospel from the one Paul, John, Peter, James...
and JESUS taught.

I can't remember reading anywhere in scripture that Jesus stated that
God will choose who is to be saved.

I do remember Him saying that He will draw all men to Himself.
John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

He will draw all men to Himself.

If that is true, explain the argument (numbers 1 and 2 and 3 and 4) I gave you. Your response so far lacks foundation.

Explained.
Not responsible if you don't understand it.
Which part of it did you not understand?
I'll be happy to repeat it since it's so important.

Here is my reply again from my post no. 306:

*****************************************************************************

Also, you're "Let's be reasonable" numbers 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 are also wrong.
God WANTS everyone to be saved...

BUT ALAS...
Due to man's FREE WILL,
not everyone will be.
ONLY those who wish to be.

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


How do you not see FREE WILL all over the bible???

 

[Fastfredy0]

As to your question, the answer is this:
Man has ALWAYS been saved by faith.

Faith includes content. That is something to believe, something to hope for. I think everyone agrees that man is saved by the instrument of faith.

I will try the question that everyone is avoiding again:
What is the content of faith for an American Indian of 1232 that must be believed in order that that person be saved ????

Aside: you have the advantage of God's revelation, the Bible, so it seems more likely you could answer this question than the American Indian of 1232. Good luck.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hopeful stated: The "unhearing" [those who have not heard the gospel FF] will be judged on/by their own consciences.

My Question:
I need clarification. I agree they will be judged. Are you saying anyone that has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? If so, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how they are saved please.

Your Answer:

Did Enoch, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, or Solomon ever hear our gospel?
Will you condemn them for that? NO and NO

I answered your question. My turn (again).
Aside: I didn't think your would answer my question directly.

I will try one but I doubt you will answer. There's an American indian in the year 1232 ...
Are you saying that the American indian of 1232 who has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? (Yes or No)
If Yes, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how that person is saved ... then please and explain Gal. 1:8

FF,
Galatians 1:8 was written by the same person that wrote

Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

As you can see from the above ALL MANKIND will be without excuse if they assert that they did not know God,,,
because God made Himself evident to them.

Also Paul wrote:

Romans 2:11-16
11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Last sentence is underlined because it refers to how Jesus died for ALL MEN.
If anyone is saved, they are saved through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus....
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Fastfredy0]

FF,
Galatians 1:8 was written by the same person that wrote

Romans 1:19-20

Faith includes content. That is something to believe, something to hope for. I think everyone agrees that man is saved by the instrument of faith.

I will try the question that everyone is avoiding again:
What is the content of faith for an American Indian of 1232 that must be believed in order that that person be saved ????

Aside: you have the advantage of God's revelation, the Bible, so it seems more likely you could answer this question than the American Indian of 1232. Good luck.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith includes content. That is something to believe, something to hope for. I think everyone agrees that man is saved by the instrument of faith.

I will try the question that everyone is avoiding again:
What is the content of faith for an American Indian of 1232 that must be believed in order that that person be saved ????

Aside: you have the advantage of God's revelation, the Bible, so it seems more likely you could answer this question than the American Indian of 1232. Good luck.

No. Please read my previous post regarding this.....

Do YOU believe ONLY those that know about Jesus are saved?

That Indian you speak of looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the h eavens and the earth.
Unless he was worshipping a rock or a horse...then God put His knowledge into him...just like He does for everyone.
YOU are the one that said I should learn about prevenient grace....
You must surely know that prevenient grace was ALWAYS an attribute of God...
even before Jesus. (and after in some cases).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hopeful stated: The "unhearing" [those who have not heard the gospel FF] will be judged on/by their own consciences.

My Question:
I need clarification. I agree they will be judged. Are you saying anyone that has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? If so, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how they are saved please.

Your Answer:

Did Enoch, Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, or Solomon ever hear our gospel?
Will you condemn them for that? NO and NO

I answered your question. My turn (again).
Aside: I didn't think your would answer my question directly.

I will try one but I doubt you will answer. There's an American indian in the year 1232 ...
Are you saying that the American indian of 1232 who has not heard the gospel has a chance to be saved???? (Yes or No)
If Yes, explain this NEW GOSPEL in regards to how that person is saved ... then please and explain Gal. 1:8

Anyone who never heard the Gospel, say an indian in 1232, can worship God through nature.
If they seek to love God through nature, God will respond to them.
God is a loving God.
He will save that indian.

 

[GodsGrace]

The "works" Paul was addressing were the works of the Law.
He showed that circumcision, dietary laws, sabbaths, feast keeping etc. were not necessary for salvation.
The "works" James was addressing were manifestations by converts of Godly behavior among those on earth.
The one are unnecessary and the other ones are the natural occurrences of those with the divine nature.

Those who misunderstand this often infer we can still commit sin but call ourselves Christians because doing any good is a "forbidden work".

Right.
I've spoken to persons that tell me I'm sinning in saying that I must obey God to be saved.

Agreed about the two different types of work.
My point was that they both (James and Paul) agreed that man's works are also necessary for
salvation because those works would be what God tells us what we should do or not do...
even though we may not always listen to Him.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyone who never heard the Gospel, say an indian in 1232, can worship God through nature.
If they seek to love God through nature, God will respond to them.
God is a loving God.
He will save that indian.

Amen to that.

 

[GodsGrace]

My questions were "If God wills that all come to repentance, then why don't they? Is it that He is incapable of carrying out His own will?"

Your answer is "Free will".

Can I assume your answer is to my first question? (If so, I'd love to also hear your answer to the second question.) Also, if your answer is for the first question, is it that our free will overrides God's will that all come to repentance?

Why ask if our free will over-rides God's free will as if it were a contest??

God made us...we are HIS creation.
God does not fear us or our free will.

He made Adam and Eve with free will to sin and disobey.

Several times I've asked for some help in understanding when this free will was taken away from us.
Is there a verse?
Is it in the O.T.?
Is it in the N.T.?
Do the O.T. and the N.T. conflict with each other?

Why would a powerful and sovereign God fear giving us free will?
What could we possibly do with it that He could not over-ride?

Now, these are the questions to answer.
But, alas, you like to stay on the surface and will not reply to deeper questions.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. The way I see it is that God opened my eyes to the beauty of His glory and my need for His mercies. Given what He did, all my resistance to His grace melted away and He caused me to be born again. In that event, you could say that His grace became irresistible.

Except that God's grace is NOT irristable.
Where in scripture does it state that grace is irrisistable?

I wouldn't say "God opened our eyes"....
I'd say He revealed Himself to us (Fastfredy0 likes to call this prevenient grace)....
and THEN we choose, freely, whether or not we care to worship God.

Our free will in deciding this should not be a problem for you since you believe that,
in any case, God is sending most persons to hell through no fault of their own.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Except that God's grace is NOT irristable.
Where in scripture does it state that grace is irrisistable?

I wouldn't say "God opened our eyes"....
I'd say He revealed Himself to us (Fastfredy0 likes to call this prevenient grace)....
and THEN we choose, freely, whether or not we care to worship God.

Our free will in deciding this should not be a problem for you since you believe that,
in any case, God is sending most persons to hell through no fault of their own.

Irrisistable grace is a phrase used by Calvin.
It is the "I" in TULIP.
It is calvinism, not in the Bible.