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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Good News/The Bad News
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
oh I know
Hospes
Member
If it can be commanded, doesn't it have to be a work?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Is it less proudful for a reformed person to believe that, of all persons on earth, God chose HIM to be saved?
I'd say the reformed have more to be boastful of than the rest of Christians.
On a few occasions I've heard Macarthur and Piper proclaim that they (the congregation) are to be humble about their salvation
......it must mean that some of them are not.
I've never heard pastors/preachers of other beliefs make this statement...I would think because it is not necessary.
Not everyone opens the gift.
God offers the gift to all men.....
Some men accept the gift, and some men will not.
Mark 16:6
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Whoever....means any man that will.
Otherwise it would have said: "All those that believe and are baptized....."
(and a case could STILL be made for offering salvation to all men just based on God's character)
Perhaps you should NOT use a dictionary.......
Perhaps you should concentrate on using the bible.....
Faith is NOT A WORK.
The N.T. makes this very clear.
It is what Paul spoke about and explained many times over.
All his epistles speak about how we are NOT UNDER THE LAW.
How we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS.
Especially Romans, explains very well how FAITH is NOT A WORK.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
In John 6:29 Jesus was speaking to a crowd that included many unbelievers.
Jesus tells them that they sought Him only because He fed them with bread, literally.
He tells them not to work for the things of this world which will pass, but to work for the
food that will give eternal life. And that HE, the Son, will give them this food.
Again, we are faced with Jesus telling a crowd that each one could be saved individually.
Jesus even states that this is why the Father sent Him....
God's eternal plan of salvation.
The WORK OF GOD in this verse is the will of God....
The will of God is that we believe in His Son.
God DOES NOT WORK.
See also 1 John 3:23
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How does one command love???
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Thanks Jerry.
I know about the Calvinism part.
Will TRY to study up on Arminianism.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
His writing is very poetic and devotional in style.
I like it for that reason.
Also, if I'm going to use a commentary, I use a few...
see what the different views are.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
"BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED..."
BELIEVE in the above sentence is a command...
wondering,
Before we get to Jacob Arminius, you may be interested in this article:
"Why Theological Study is for Everyone".
If you want an Arminian POV, I recommend you go to the Society of Evangelical Arminians website. I'm considering becoming a member because I'm a leaky Reformed/Classical Arminian, following many of the teachings of Arminius, except I'm committed to believers' and not infant baptism
Arminius did believe in total depravity. See my article: Do Arminians believe in election and total depravity?
I was really stirred up when my Calvinistic pastor preached that Arminius did not believe in total depravity. After the service I challenged him, asking where he had learned that about Arminius's theology. His response was from his Reformed College professors. He had not read Arminius on the subject, so told a lie from the pulpit.
From your many posts I have read, I've concluded you are in the Arminian camp and are not a semi-Pelagian. Too many Calvinists identify Arminianism with semi-Pelagianism. Here is an article that may help you identify your theology: Survey: Are You an Arminian and Don’t Even Know It?
Oz
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wondering,
To better understand the teachings of Arminianism, I'd recommend this as a starter, "The Statement of Faith", Society of Evangelical Arminians. This is a comparison of the major beliefs of Calvinism vs Arminianism:
(image courtesy of Jeff Paton: http://www.imarc.cc/esecurity/jeffpaton4.html)
Oz
To better understand the teachings of Arminianism, I'd recommend this as a starter, "The Statement of Faith", Society of Evangelical Arminians. This is a comparison of the major beliefs of Calvinism vs Arminianism:
(image courtesy of Jeff Paton: http://www.imarc.cc/esecurity/jeffpaton4.html)
Oz
I may be wrong in my assessment of your position, but it seems that you are saying believing and faith are the same, nothing could be further from the truth.
Faith is a noun and comes to us when God speaks to us, whether directly as in Genesis 12, or indirectly through those He sends to preach the Gospel.
Believe on the other hand is a verb and is what we must to do in response to the Gospel message. Believe carries the idea of obey, which is why we se some passages say believe the Gospel, while others say obey the Gospel.
Do we agree on this or disagree?
JLB
Not true.
The cause of faith is God. Faith is what we receive from God when He speaks to us. See Hebrews 11.
However, what causes faith to be activated, and be complete and able to produce the intended divine result is believing and therefore obeying; the obedience of faith.
When faith comes to us from God, because we hear Him speak to us, it is dormant and incomplete and must be activated or made alive by our obedience, our corresponding action of obedience.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
- by works faith was made perfect?
Perfect here means complete.
The work that James is referring to is obedience to the word from God, by which Abraham received faith, which was to offer his son Isaac on the altar.
Do we agree or disagree?
JLB
According to https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/belief-believe.html ... belief/believe is the same as faith per the first bible dictionary I looked up.
Google dictionary definition of FAITH - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Agreed, "Faith" is a noun, "belief" is a noun and "believing" is a verb.
Agreed, "Faith" cometh by hearing (not all the time, but that is a prerequisite)
We may be getting lost in the fine minutiae. You give aspects of the words "Faith" and "believe", but you don't give definitions.
Apparently you want to define 'believe' and 'believing' as obeying. I use those words usually to describe salvific faith which is in agreement with a bible dictionary quoted above.
Here are my definitions.
Salvific Faith/Belief consists of three components: Knowledge (intellectual), Agreement (emotional) and Trust (volitional).
I must believe in some content (knowledge), (agreement) that the knowledge is true, and Trust in the gospel.
Regarding the 3rd component of FAITH which is TRUST. TRUST will cause a Christian to be obedient (the effect) to God's will, although imperfectly. We are not saved by this obedience (that would be a work), but it will be evident. Contrarily, if there is little obedience then this is a sign one does not have FAITH/BELIEF.
Our obedience is the result of the Spirit (the Spirit is the cause, our obedience is the effect). I think you are calling this aspect of Faith that I call the result of TRUST by the word "believing". If this is what you meaning by "believing", I'm good with that.
Aside: I think we are talking past each other.
Agreed.
Agreed. Compatibilism. The cause of our faith is God (your first statement). The effect is we believe ... we agree to the gospel message and the result is imperfect obedience.
Hmmm, you must have a different definition of FAITH that I. You are saying we can have FAITH and go to hell because we haven't done the work of obedience. (IMO)
We are save by FAITH ALONE. IF God gives you Faith, you WILL BE SAVED. Your statement contradicts this premise.
We are save the moment we first believe. Faith may increase with time, but salvation occurs when one believes/has salvific faith.
Aside: I never heard a Christian say someone can have FAITH and not be saved. Interesting, one with faith could be in hell assuming one doesn't "activate" this faith and dies. I never heard the concept of activating FAITH by works either.
No, this is an improper understanding of James. James is talking of a man being justified in the eye of other men and not God. It would be an interesting thread to investigate this further. I struggled with James for a while. (From your perspective, I still do .. lol)
Hmmm... not sure on that ... almost bedtime.
No .... Abraham was saved years before the sacrifice of Isaac by his faith and not during Isaac's sacrifice. I don't think anyone will agree with you on this point.
Wife calling .. no time to proof read.
Hospes
Member
Ask Jesus:
Mark 12:28–31 (ESV)
And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
John 15:12 (ESV)
“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
1 John 3:23 (ESV)
And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
2 John 5 (ESV)
And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.
(I guess that last one was from the Apostle John.)
If I have the same "causer" as the damned have, why don't they believe like I do?
They had the choice to believe as I did...didn't they?
The "cause" is available to all men, but it is up to us to believe, repent of sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of past sins, and endure till the end.
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That’s correct. Dead faith can not save.
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17
Faith “alone” is a misconception. Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience in order for faith to be complete, otherwise faith remains incomplete as a body without a spirit is incomplete, and is lifeless.
JLB
Sorry but God is the one who justifies, not other men.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Paul teaches the same thing throughout the book of Romans.
Here is one example of Jesus teaching this principle.
And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22
- a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
The faith in her heart inspired her to say... If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.
When she acted in obedience to move through the crowds and touch the hem of His garment, despite her fear, her faith was activated to produce the intended result of healing her body of the issue of blood.
- “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.”
JLB
Hospes
Member
We can agree there is, at least in James' thinking, some category of faith called "dead faith" and it is not of any use for salvation. Can we assume there is a type of faith that may be called "live faith"?
Is there anything in the Bible that is not consistent with obedience being the result of "live" faith? Kind of like an internal temperature of above 98 degF and breathing are results of a human body being alive?
I can take a dead body and artificially make it have a temperature of 98.6 degF and using a ventilator I can cause it to breathe, but that does not make the body alive. In the same way, you can, by force of one's will, produce obedience and yet still be dead in one's sins.
The way you talk of obedience giving faith life is akin to me claiming my heating up a dead body and putting it on a ventilator gives the body life.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Of course I knew you'd bring this up.
But I hate to jump ahead.
We are to love everyone.....that would be agape love....
a love that comes from God that we are to share with the world.
I love my neighbor -- but not like I love my son.
The love I was referring to, which cannot be commanded, is the love your wife has for YOU, for example.
You cannot command this type of love.
Jesus meant to protect our neighbor and help when possible and take care of them.
I direct you to the Good Samaritan.
The Samaritan loved the person hurt like we are to love.
He did not love him like you love your wife or a son of yours.
Jesus also said to hate your mother and your father.
Did he mean to really hate them?
If so, then it would conflict with the message of love.
There is no conflict in what Jesus taught.
We were discussing faith...
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
**************************************************************************************************
This is from my post no. 244:
......
Faith is NOT A WORK.
The N.T. makes this very clear.
It is what Paul spoke about and explained many times over.
All his epistles speak about how we are NOT UNDER THE LAW.
How we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS.
Especially Romans, explains very well how FAITH is NOT A WORK.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.