The Good News/The Bad News

[OzSpen]

That’s great.

But the question remains, why do we look to Bible dictionaries written by men for the definition of a word when the Bible defines that word for us?

Can‘t we agree on the definition that the Bible gives us?


Faith comes to us from God, and is the substance of the thing hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.



JLB

JLB,

Your post raises a few issues for me:

1. Don't you realise that we would not have translations into English or any other language if it were not for experts/scholars/professional linguists who knew the original languages? Have you ever looked at the translation committees for the KJV, ESV, NASB, NIV, NLT and NRSV? You should be staggered to know how knowledgeable these linguists were of the original languages. They are human beings. What?
   
2. The Bible doesn't give us the meaning of many verses. It simply gives us a basic translation. As we've found in this thread, the nuances of Eph 2:8-9 (ESV) are not clear from a basic reading of the text. It needs exegesis and the use of exegetical Greek aids from leading Greek commentators and Bible dictionaries. I would not be able to exegete from the Greek if I didn't study introductory Greek under Dr Larry Hurtado, Regent College, Vancouver BC, Canada, using J W Wenham's, Elements of New Testament Greek, and in completing my BA in biblical literature and NT Greek at Northwest University, Kirkland WA, I used Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (available free online as pdf). I would not have grasped basic NT Greek if it were not for other Greek teachers who taught me. Believe it or not, they were men. I learned Greek from - shock horror - men who were God's gift to the body of Christ.??
3. All Bible translations were translated by men and women. Does that bother you?
4. Many times the Bible doesn't define a word for us. That influenced Richard Trench to research and publish his book, The Synonyms of the New Testament (available online). By reading the English Bible alone, how will you differentiate between the two Greek words for love? What's the difference in meaning for the "word" translated from logos or rhema? There are 3 Greek words for "hell". What are the words and what are their differences? There are a few different words for "heaven". That are the differences in meaning.
5. Your position, in my view, demeans God's gift of teacher for the benefit of the body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12 ESV).
6. I can't agree with you on "the definition that the Bible gives us" for a word. I find that to be a naive pov as the Bible does not define all words. It translates them but exegesis is needed to get to the root meaning of some words.

An well! I think I'm wasting my time.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Don't you realise that we would not have translations into English or any other language if it were not for experts/scholars/professional linguists who knew the original languages? Have you ever looked at the translation committees for the KJV, ESV, NASB, NIV, NLT and NRSV? You should be staggered to know how knowledgeable these linguists were of the original languages. They are human beings. What?

Those whom the Holy Spirit moved upon to write the scriptures are people.


Why do we need another definition of faith, other than the definition the Bible gives?


Please answer my question.





JLB

 

[JLB]

The Bible doesn't give us the meaning of many verses. It simply gives us a basic translation.

When the Bible gives us the meaning of a word, especially an important word like faith, can’t we all agree this is the meaning that God intended for us to use?




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Why ask if our free will over-rides God's free will as if it were a contest??

God made us...we are HIS creation.
God does not fear us or our free will.

He made Adam and Eve with free will to sin and disobey.

Several times I've asked for some help in understanding when this free will was taken away from us.
Is there a verse?
Is it in the O.T.?
Is it in the N.T.?
Do the O.T. and the N.T. conflict with each other?

Why would a powerful and sovereign God fear giving us free will?
What could we possibly do with it that He could not over-ride?

Now, these are the questions to answer.
But, alas, you like to stay on the surface and will not reply to deeper questions.

wondering,

To my knowledge it has never been taken away from human beings. It was given to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden when they had the choice of the tree of knowledge and of evil. They chose the tree of evil.

Another leading verse in the OT that clearly affirms free will, the ability to choose spiritually, is in Joshua 24:15 (ESV), "And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

As for the NT, we have it straight from the mouth of Jesus, recorded in John 7:17 (ESV): "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority."

When will people exegete the Scriptures rather than reading in what is not there (eisegesis)?

On the everyday level, I have a choice what I'll have for breakfast. But on the spiritual level, I choose to follow Jesus. I have a choice to "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" or reject him and be damned - not annihilated.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Irrisistable grace is a phrase used by Calvin.
It is the "I" in TULIP.
It is calvinism, not in the Bible.

Right.
Man makes up many words that are not biblical.

The bible speaks about God's grace...
I can't think of anywhere that states it cannot be resisted.

If God is loving, merciful, and just, then I'd have to ask why He doesn't save everyone if His grace is irresistible.

If we all are born deserving hell, then why don't
All go to hell if He is indeed just?

Rhetorical question, of course.

 

[JLB]

Your position, in my view, demeans God's gift of teacher for the benefit of the body of Christ (Eph 4:11-12 ESV).

Because Bible teachers are so desperately needed in this time of so much false doctrine, we should all be in agreement when the Bible defines a word for us, and we should use that definition rather than some commentary definition.


Are you are there is a difference between teaching scripture and teaching man’s commentaries?


The Pharisees taught commentary, a mixture of scripture and Talmud, and tradition. They ended up murdering Jesus who taught pure truth.




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Those whom the Holy Spirit moved upon to write the scriptures are people.


Why do we need another definition of faith, other than the definition the Bible gives?


Please answer my question.





JLB

JLB,

I've already answered you in #304.

I agree that the fundamental definition of faith is in Heb 11:1 (ESV): "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

This verse involves intellectual assent to the facts of faith and trust (a conviction) in the facts.

How will you know the difference between the faith of Heb 11:1 (ESV) and the faith of James 2:19 (ESV): " You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe [have faith in]—and shudder!"

We're spinning the wheels in this discussion with one another. I have nothing more to add in my engagement with you.


Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Faith includes content. That is something to believe, something to hope for. I think everyone agrees that man is saved by the instrument of faith.

I will try the question that everyone is avoiding again:
What is the content of faith for an American Indian of 1232 that must be believed in order that that person be saved ????

Aside: you have the advantage of God's revelation, the Bible, so it seems more likely you could answer this question than the American Indian of 1232. Good luck.

FF,

What is your answer to the question: Is Christ's salvation available to anyone who has not heard a Gospel proclamation? That applies as much to the Australian Indigenous people before the British coming to this country in 1770.

Why does my denomination, The Christian & Missionary Alliance, send missionaries around the world? Why bother to do that if there is another way for these people to be saved?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Right.
Man makes up many words that are not biblical.

The bible speaks about God's grace...
I can't think of anywhere that states it cannot be resisted.

If God is loving, merciful, and just, then I'd have to ask why He doesn't save everyone if His grace is irresistible.

If we all are born deserving hell, then why don't
All go to hell if He is indeed just?

Rhetorical question, of course.

wondering,

You have provided an excellent reason why there is a need to exegete "grace". Is it irresistible grace or prevenient grace? See my article: Prevenient grace – kinda clumsy!

Would you believe it is human beings who are engaged in exegesis of the the text? We require God's gift of teachers to help us better understand the texts about which we have questions.

Oz

 

[JLB]

This verse involves intellectual assent to the facts of faith and trust (a conviction) in the facts.

That of course is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

You may be interested in a couple articles I've written on this topic:

• What is the nature of human free will?
• Calvinists, free will and a better alternative

Oz

Hi Oz
Just read the above two articles.
I wish Fastfredy0 and Hospes would
Read them....
They are very clear and it would help to answer their question as to what others believe about free will

I'm on a phone and think I better say good night..

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

You have provided an excellent reason why there is a need to exegete "grace". Is it irresistible grace or prevenient grace? See my article: Prevenient grace – kinda clumsy!

Would you believe it is human beings who are engaged in exegesis of the the text? We require God's gift of teachers to help us better understand the texts about which we have questions.

Oz

Oz
Can't write too much....
I agree that teachers are good and needed.
I do believe we should read the bible on our own so we do not come to it predisposed.

Also, creating terms like prevenient grace and irresistible grace does seem to muddy up the waters. Grace is grace.

The reformers changed the meaning and called it irresistible.

Sorry, I can't write on this THING! (Phone)
'Night

 

[JLB]

How will you know the difference between the faith of Heb 11:1 (ESV) and the faith of James 2:19 (ESV): " You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe [have faith in]—and shudder!"

Believe and have faith in are not the same.


The verse does not say have faith in, that is your inserted opinion based on your understanding that comes from commentaries.


You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19


The point James is making making here is demons believe in God but don’t obey Him.


Believing without obeying is demonic believing and profits us nothing.

Likewise those who believe Jesus is Lord but don’t obey Him, are deceived.


Faith must have the action of obedience to be complete, and active or alive.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21




JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree that the fundamental definition of faith is in Heb 11:1 (ESV): "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Okay, I’m glad we can agree on something.




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Oz
Can't write too much....
I agree that teachers are good and needed.
I do believe we should read the bible on our own so we do not come to it predisposed.

Also, creating terms like prevenient grace and irresistible grace does seem to muddy up the waters. Grace is grace.

The reformers changed the meaning and called it irresistible.

Sorry, I can't write on this THING! (Phone)
'Night

wondering,
What's your understanding of the biblical meaning of "grace"?
What does grace mean in:

Heb 11:1 (NASB)
John 1:14 (NASB)
2 Cor 12:9 (NASB)
Luke 4:22 (NASB)
Col 4.6 (NASB)
Acts 2:47 (NASB)

Oz

 

[jerry63935]

I've been called a free willer many times.
And said with anger too.
I can't say that I'm angry with calvinists....
I just wish they would see the light and the true character and attributes of God.

Of course, they feel the same about us "free willers".

calvinism dont worry me . while i am not a fan of the doctrine / i do have a friend in scotland that is calvinist we get along good. yes if i was to ever visit scotland i would attend the church as a visitor. the Big problem is you have those who are diehard. will not budge on compromise to find common ground. there are all kinds like this. i find in john 17 the true Lord prayer . christ prayed we be one in him

 

[Fastfredy0]

You must surely know that prevenient grace was ALWAYS an attribute of God...

Definition of ATTRIBUTE: a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.

I've read 10 or so books about God attributes and never heard that "prevenient grace" is one of His attributes. In fact many (most?) contend that "prevenient grace" is a myth. Please give scriptures supporting "prevenient grace". (Aside: I've heard rumors of 4 such verses ... "prevenient grace" is 'a posteriori' thinking (an effect stuggling to find a cause that doesn't contradict 'libertarian free will') ... but let's see what verses you have to support it)

Do YOU believe ONLY those that know about Jesus are saved?

You haven't define what you mean by "know" ... today that is not one person alive who is born again that does not know of Christ, though that is not the only perquisite for salvation. If you can show me an exception, point him out to me and tell me the gospel by which that person is saved. There are still people on earth who have not heard of Christ. (Exception: age of accountability)

That Indian you speak of looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the h eavens and the earth.
Unless he was worshipping a rock or a horse...then God put His knowledge into him...just like He does for everyone.

(Not trying to put words in your mouth)... given Faith requires content, the question I asked was: What is the content of faith for an American Indian of 1232 that must be believed in order that that person be saved ????

... and the gospel by which you say the 1232 Indian was saved was knowing "looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the heavens and the earth...then God put His knowledge into him". So, this is the gospel (good news) for those who have not heard the salvific gospel of the Bible. Yet, I suppose you contend that this is not a different gospel that spoken of by Paul in Gal. 1:8.
Well, you surprised me and did answer the question. Thank you.
So, I guess Muslims that have no heard of Christ ... I guess they worship the same God as us and can be saved? (John 14:6)
What happens to a person that is saved that has not heard of Christ using the gospel of "looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the heavens and the earth...then God put His knowledge into him" ... what happens to them when they hear of Christ? Do all of them believe salvifically (which seems to contradict libertarian free will) or can they lose their salvation?
Is the gospel of believing by "looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the heavens and the earth...then God put His knowledge into him" ... is the gospel more efficient that the one of the bible? If not, should we evangelize?

Rollo Tamasi agrees with you apparently ... so the same questions can be answered by him if he wishes ... welcome aboard

 

[jerry63935]

Note that his statement has no mention of total depravity, free will, man's inability to save himself,

see your so wrong nobody that i know of that is a true born again child of God . buys into this theory man saves him self . nor does amn chose the time place to be saved. the Holy spirit has to Draw us .the Book of hebrews says

Hebrews 12:25​

“See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:” God calls us to be honest your well trained in calvinism. in carm forum they say the same thing years ago nice try

 

[Fastfredy0]

Many times the Bible doesn't define a word for us.

Aside: Oh how I wish the Bible came with a dictionary... ... (but then the meaning of words changes with time ... sigh)

 

[OzSpen]

Definition of ATTRIBUTE: a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.

I've read 10 or so books about God attributes and never heard that "prevenient grace" is one of His attributes. In fact many (most?) contend that "prevenient grace" is a myth. Please give scriptures supporting "prevenient grace". (Aside: I've heard rumors of 4 such verses ... "prevenient grace" is 'a posteriori' thinking (an effect stuggling to find a cause that doesn't contradict 'libertarian free will') ... but let's see what verses you have to support it)

FF,

You haven't read enough genuinely classical/Reformed Arminian material to obtain a definition of and biblical understanding of prevenient grace. The very first theology book I had in Bible College was by Henry C Thiessen, teacher at Wheaton College, IL, Lectures in Systematic Theology (available online, pp 106ff). I have the 1949 hardcover edition published by Eerdmans. It has since been revised. Thiessen has a good section describing the nature of prevenient grace.

In seminary I used Purkiser, Taylor & Taylor, God, Man & Salvation (Beacon Hill Press 1977) that has a section on "The Enabling Grace" (pp. 411-12). This refers to prevenient grace. "Common grace" is another term for it. There is a section on "The Nature of Prevenient Grace" in H Orton Wiley's, Christian Theology, vol 2, 1952, pp 352-54. Kansas City, Mo: Beacon Hill Press.

Oz