The Good News/The Bad News

[Fastfredy0]

Why do we need another definition of faith, other than the definition the Bible gives?


Please answer my question.

Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Possibly because the verse lists characteristics of love, not a precise definition.
Definition: a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
Characteristics: a feature or quality belonging typically to a person, place, or thing and serving to identify it.
Characteristics NOT EQUAL Definition (although some similarities)

Love in English is defined by 3 different words in Greek (I believe) would be another possibility

Because the characteristics of LOVE in Hebrew 1:11 are not all inclusive and thus come short of the mark:
Consider Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity
... here "LOVE" is called a BOND OF UNITY, which is absent from Hebrews 11:1

Because, when people translate the BIBLE they use the dictionary meaning of words they translate as a dictionary by definition describes the current meaning of words of the general population.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Amen. We agree.

 

[JLB]

Possibly because the verse lists characteristics of love, not a precise definition.
Definition: a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
Characteristics: a feature or quality belonging typically to a person, place, or thing and serving to identify it.
Characteristics NOT EQUAL Definition (although some similarities)

Love in English is defined by 3 different words in Greek (I believe) would be another possibility

Because the characteristics of LOVE in Hebrew 1:11 are not all inclusive and thus come short of the mark:
Consider Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity
... here "LOVE" is called a BOND OF UNITY, which is absent from Hebrews 11:1

We have a biblical definition of love.

No need to wonder, it’s simple.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


Faith works by obedience in which love is manifested.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


Amen.

 

[OzSpen]

Aside: Oh how I wish the Bible came with a dictionary... ... (but then the meaning of words changes with time ... sigh)

FF,

You don't seem to get it that the role of Bible teachers is not simply to read from the Bible in the pulpit, but to explain the Scriptures (1 Cor 12:28-29 ESV).

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgement, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members,[e] and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,[f] with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness (Rom 12:3-8 ESV).​

I'm ashamed to be on a Christian forum that allows you and JLB to denigrate the ministry gift of teaching as you do. Sarcasm doesn't work with me.

Oz

 

[jerry63935]

since when do we need books written by men with degrees to know what Grace is ? GRACE IS BETTER EXPERINCED THAN DEFINED listen to peg Mckamey in the video she will tell you what you need to know about Grace

 

[Fastfredy0]

What is your answer to the question: Is Christ's salvation available to anyone who has not heard a Gospel proclamation?

If you mean, can someone who has not heard the gospel be born again, the answer if NO.
If you mean, is there a possibility that someone that has not heard the gospel may hear the gospel ... of course. That's why I use the illustration of an American Indian of 1232, because the possibility of someone telling him the gospel was 0.000% and thus took that possibility out the the discussion.
If you mean, is the gospel available to everyone sometime during their lifetime ... the answer is NO. Such people are doomed.

Why does my denomination, The Christian & Missionary Alliance, send missionaries around the world? Why bother to do that if there is another way for these people to be saved?

Why? I assume their motivation is because there is no other way to save people other than to hear the gospel (Paul's gospel). Faith cometh by hearing.
I assume their motivation is because God tells us to preach the gospel (the Great commission).
Could be someone had nothing better to do ...(j/k ...need to smile once in a while)
Aside: that being said, who know the spirit of another man

Why bother to do that if there is another way for these people to be saved?
That is the point I was trying to make. At least 4 people have responded to my questions by affirming that one can be saved without hearing the gospel of the Bible.

Aside: Hey, I went to an Alliance Church for a few years (I assume that it the same Christian & Missionary Alliance)

 

[Fastfredy0]

This verse involves intellectual assent to the facts of faith and trust (a conviction) in the facts.

Amen

 

[daninthelionsden]

FF,

You don't seem to get it that the role of Bible teachers is not simply to read from the Bible in the pulpit, but to explain the Scriptures (1 Cor 12:28-29 ESV).

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgement, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members,[e] and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,[f] with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness (Rom 12:3-8 ESV).​

I'm ashamed to be on a Christian forum that allows you and JLB to denigrate the ministry gift of teaching as you do. Sarcasm doesn't work with me.

Oz

Just because not everyone agrees with you nor has your level of intelligence/education des not mean you aren't held in high esteem here. You shouldn't say such things. That is beneath you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You haven't read enough genuinely classical/Reformed Arminian material to obtain a definition of and biblical understanding of prevenient grace.

Agreed. All I know is "prevenient grace" is what Arminian's use to solve the problem of the depravity of man and 4 verses that reportedly support the doctrine.
Arminian’s define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

Henry C Thiessen, teacher at Wheaton College, IL, Lectures in Systematic Theology

I knew of this book. I love 'Systematic Theology' books above all others. I am also 'cheap' and it was over $20 so I never got it.
Ah, the link you gave me worked. Well, at $0 I may give it a read, thanks.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You don't seem to get it that the role of Bible teachers is not simply to read from the Bible in the pulpit, but to explain the Scriptures (1 Cor 12:28-29 ESV).

Agreed. Not sure why you don't think I agree with that statement. God didn't give the gift of teaching to some without the idea that the teachers need students.

I'm ashamed to be on a Christian forum that allows you and @JLB to denigrate the ministry gift of teaching as you do.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. I think VERY highly of those that teach. Sproul, Grudem, Hodge, MacArthur, Frame, Horton, Beeke, White, Piper, pastors I have had ... and on and on ... I also respect your credentials. So, I don't know where that comment came from ... I think you've misunderstood me. This form of communication can be confusing at times.

That being said, I favor the Berean's who checked the scriptures to see that what is taught is true. (Speaking in general)

 

[OzSpen]

Agreed. All I know is "prevenient grace" is what Arminian's use to solve the problem of the depravity of man and 4 verses that reportedly support the doctrine.
Arminian’s define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

FF,

Arminians didn't invent/use to solve the problem of dealing with the depravity of human beings. Prevenient grace is amazing grace with a biblical foundation.

Prevenient grace “is the powerful but resistible drawing of God” towards the unbeliever. ‘Prevenient grace’ is not a biblical term, “but it is a biblical concept assumed everywhere in scripture” (Olson 2006:159). Just because the actual wording doesn't appear in the Bible does not make it an unbiblical teaching, e.g. The Trinity.

These are biblically based examples of prevenient grace (1 Jn 2:2; Tit 2:11). This is most often called the ‘common grace of God’.

The Remonstrants, Article 4, described it this way:

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).​

The Remonstrants challenge to Calvinism led to the Synod of Dort and development of TULIP theology. The Remonstrants understood that there was only one way to eternal salvation and that was achieved when God’s grace came to human beings before, during and after justification. Why was God’s grace needed in this way? It was because, as the Remonstrants stated, that no human being could ‘think, will, nor do good’ unless they received God’s prevenient or assisting grace.

Why do people not receive this assisting grace from God? It is because human beings are created with a free will to accept or reject God’s prevenient grace. The resistance by people is not because of God’s doing, it is because of the rebelliousness of the human heart and people choose to reject this prevenient grace.
With considerable help by Henry C. Thiessen (1949:155-156):

1. God must take the initiative if human beings are to be saved to enjoy eternal life. God’s common grace will not bring people to salvation. That God took the initiative in salvation is shown by what he did with Adam & Eve after the fall into sin (Gen. 3:8-9). Even after they became fallen human beings, they were still able to hear the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden and the Lord God called on the man and that man was able to hear God – even though ‘totally depraved’.
2. We know this from the teachings of Isa. 59:15-16 and John 15:16. Paul told us in Rom. 2:4 that God’s kindness was designed to lead people to repentance.
3. In accepting prevenient grace, I understand that God, in his amazing grace, has made it possible for all people to be saved (e.g. 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2; Titus 2:11). With Titus 2:11, this amazing grace of God has appeared ‘bringing salvation for all people’ (ESV) or ‘the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men’ (NIV).
4. The result is that the human will is freed in relation to salvation. This is what is implied in the OT and NT exhortations to turn to God (see Prov. 1:23; Isa. 31:6; Matt. 18:3; Acts 3:19), to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and to believe (2 Chron 20:20: Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23).
5. We must remember what this means. It DOES NOT mean that prevenient grace makes it possible for a human being to change the permanent bent/nature of his will in favour of God. It does not mean that a person can stop sinning in the natural and make herself/himself acceptable to God. It does mean that a person can make an initial response to God (as with Adam & Eve) and God can give repentance and faith. God can say as he stated in Jeremiah 31:18, “Bring me back that I may be restored, for you are the Lord my God”. Or, “Restore us again, O God of our salvation, and put away your indignation toward us” (Ps. 85:4). God does it, but not without ‘restore us again” or “bring me back”. This truly is amazing grace. If we can say this, God has granted us a measure of freedom to respond to him – truly amazing grace. This means that in some way God has enabled us to act contrary to our fallen nature. If we will say this much, ‘bring me back’, God will grant a person repentance (Acts 5:32; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25) and faith (Rom. 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1).
6. God’s amazing prevenient grace has enabled human beings to have this opportunity to respond to God. It is a resistible grace, but God has enabled the will to respond to Him.
7. So prevenient grace is amazing, God-sent grace.

Oz

Works consulted

Olson, Roger E 2006, Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

We have a biblical definition of love.

No need to wonder, it’s simple.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


Faith works by obedience in which love is manifested.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


Amen.

JLB,

Is it that easy?

Which kind of love is it in Rom 1:31; 1 Thess 3:12; 2 Tim.3:3?

How about Matt 22:37-39; Rom 12:10?

How do you know the meaning of "love" in John 5:20?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Agreed. Not sure why you don't think I agree with that statement. God didn't give the gift of teaching to some without the idea that the teachers need students.


I have no idea of what you are talking about. I think VERY highly of those that teach. Sproul, Grudem, Hodge, MacArthur, Frame, Horton, Beeke, White, Piper, pastors I have had ... and on and on ... I also respect your credentials. So, I don't know where that comment came from ... I think you've misunderstood me. This form of communication can be confusing at times.

That being said, I favor the Berean's who checked the scriptures to see that what is taught is true. (Speaking in general)

Sorry FF. That was my error. I confused the rejection of Bible teachers by Jerry with you.

​

 

[jerry63935]

Just because not everyone agrees with you nor has your level of intelligence/education des not mean you aren't held in high esteem here. You shouldn't say such things. That is beneath you.

what ever happened to who so ever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED ? do we really need a theology degree to understand Grace ? does it take a degree to be saved? NO

 

[Hospes]

see your so wrong nobody that i know of that is a true born again child of God . buys into this theory man saves him self . nor does amn chose the time place to be saved. the Holy spirit has to Draw us .the Book of hebrews says

Hebrews 12:25​

“See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:” God calls us to be honest your well trained in calvinism. in carm forum they say the same thing years ago nice try

Hi jerry63935.

It is disappointing I cannot find a rational connection between your replies and what I post. I actually enjoy a dialog in which two or more people discuss a topic and respond to what one another writes. (On the other hand, I get no pleasure where there is not mutual and thoughtful consideration of what one another has written.) Since you seem to be unable or unwilling to have this type of discussion, I will surrender the field to you and give you the last word.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Is it that easy?

Which kind of love is it in Rom 1:31; 1 Thess 3:12; 2 Tim.3:3?

How about Matt 22:37-39; Rom 12:10?

How do you know the meaning of "love" in John 5:20?

Oz

Romans 1:31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

I don’t find the word love in this verse.


1 John 5:3 is the love of God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

• Love does no harm to our neighbor.

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


Without obedience to God there is no love of God, it’s only self love. We must obey the command to love our neighbor if we are to walk in the love of God.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21

• this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10



Getting a good understanding by reading scriptures from the Lord and His apostles about a subject will help us to build a solid foundation to build our lives upon.


Are there different words in Greek and Hebrew for love.

Yes. Agapeo and Phileo to name a few.


The question is: are we pointing people to God’s word and the Holy Spirit, to gain understanding or are we pointing them to commentaries, which are the opinions of man and breed division?



I have always used a Strongs Concordance to enhance or understand further what a Greek or Hebrew may mean.


However, if the scripture defines for us what a word means then we should use that as a foundation.


My main point remains: Faith and Believe are two different words, and should not be used interchangeably as one is a noun and one is a verb.


One is what we receive from God when we hear Him speak to us.


The other is our part that we must do if our faith is to be activated to function.








JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Definition of ATTRIBUTE: a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.

I've read 10 or so books about God attributes and never heard that "prevenient grace" is one of His attributes. In fact many (most?) contend that "prevenient grace" is a myth. Please give scriptures supporting "prevenient grace". (Aside: I've heard rumors of 4 such verses ... "prevenient grace" is 'a posteriori' thinking (an effect stuggling to find a cause that doesn't contradict 'libertarian free will') ... but let's see what verses you have to support it)



You haven't define what you mean by "know" ... today that is not one person alive who is born again that does not know of Christ, though that is not the only perquisite for salvation. If you can show me an exception, point him out to me and tell me the gospel by which that person is saved. There are still people on earth who have not heard of Christ. (Exception: age of accountability)



(Not trying to put words in your mouth)... given Faith requires content, the question I asked was: What is the content of faith for an American Indian of 1232 that must be believed in order that that person be saved ????

... and the gospel by which you say the 1232 Indian was saved was knowing "looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the heavens and the earth...then God put His knowledge into him". So, this is the gospel (good news) for those who have not heard the salvific gospel of the Bible. Yet, I suppose you contend that this is not a different gospel that spoken of by Paul in Gal. 1:8.
Well, you surprised me and did answer the question. Thank you.
So, I guess Muslims that have no heard of Christ ... I guess they worship the same G

od as us and can be saved? (John 14:6)
What happens to a person that is saved that has not heard of Christ using the gospel of "looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the heavens and the earth...then God put His knowledge into him" ... what happens to them when they hear of Christ? Do all of them believe salvifically (which seems to contradict libertarian free will) or can they lose their salvation?
Is the gospel of believing by "looked up at the sky and knew that a great spirit must have made the heavens and the earth...then God put His knowledge into him" ... is the gospel more efficient that the one of the bible? If not, should we evangelize?

Rollo Tamasi agrees with you apparently ... so the same questions can be answered by him if he wishes ... welcome aboard

Hello, I believe you are taking the 1232 Indian's belief a step further.
Hearing the Gospel changes things I believe.
But without the Gospel, I believe I am right.
Adam and Eve knew God and told of him to their children.
And so this knowledge was passed down through history.
When the flood came, there were no excuses.
Romans 1:20 leaves open for people to believe in God and so then be able to receive the Gospel.
I believe he was saying that people did not believe there is a God.
But God has always revealed himself to us.

AS I said in my last post, God is a loving God.
It's not good to try and put him in a box and say "this is how it is".
All that God is and can do is beyond our comprehension.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Possibly because the verse lists characteristics of love, not a precise definition.
Definition: a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
Characteristics: a feature or quality belonging typically to a person, place, or thing and serving to identify it.
Characteristics NOT EQUAL Definition (although some similarities)

Love in English is defined by 3 different words in Greek (I believe) would be another possibility

Because the characteristics of LOVE in Hebrew 1:11 are not all inclusive and thus come short of the mark:
Consider Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on and wrap yourselves in [unselfish] love, which is the perfect bond of unity
... here "LOVE" is called a BOND OF UNITY, which is absent from Hebrews 11:1

Because, when people translate the BIBLE they use the dictionary meaning of words they translate as a dictionary by definition describes the current meaning of words of the general population.

I believe God makes a way for everyone to go to heaven even without hearing the Gospel.
Without ever hearing about Jesus.
Without ever knowing there is a Messiah.
Will God think, "my people have failed me. They have never reached all peoples of the world. Now that the end has come, I'm forced to send millions of people to hell who never heard the Gospel.
Now I know that goes against what the Bible teaches, but the idea behind it is what we are talking about.
A village of people, 15,000, in the wilderness, never heard the Gospel.
They have their own language.
Outsiders don't know it.
Missionaries have to find these people, make friends with them, learn their language, and then translate the Bible into their language,
Then have it printed in their language and distributed.
Wycliffe Bible translators do this today.
If they had never reached this village, would they all go to hell?
I believe God is greater than that.

 

[stovebolts]

That’s great.

But the question remains, why do we look to Bible dictionaries written by men for the definition of a word when the Bible defines that word for us?

Can‘t we agree on the definition that the Bible gives us?


Faith comes to us from God, and is the substance of the thing hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.



JLB

I know this wasnt directed toward me but felt prompted to reply.

Words and meanings of words are important. When an original text was written in another language, it has to be interpreted into the other language. There are several ways this can occur, especially when the target language falls short of the meaning of the original word.

Some translators try and use a literal translation, which again can fall short, or carry different ideas or pictures than the original text.

Going back to the original text and having a basic understanding of the cultural norms can aid us in understanding the text with the intent of the original writer. When we rely on our own understanding with a modern cultural lens, it is easy to misunderstand the original intent.

 

[stovebolts]

The Pharisees taught commentary, a mixture of scripture and Talmud, and tradition. They ended up murdering Jesus who taught pure truth.

John 10:15
New International Version
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Nobody murdered Jesus. He willingly gave up his life.

John 15:13 KJV
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.