The Good News/The Bad News

[jerry63935]

I have written before how Reformed Theology defines unconditional election, so I'll just suggest you read it in Wikipedia. Even this secular source gets it more correct than what you have asserted. For someone so anti-Calvinist, I'd suggest you put in a bit of work at gaining a better understanding of what you're against.

another argument is brewing

 

[Hospes]

another argument is brewing

No, not from me. My guess/hope is wondering is not really interested in a protracted argument on the definition of Unconditional Election, either.

I think we actually have a "working relationship" where she'll write something that triggers me and then I whine about it and it triggers her and we end up just agreeing to disagree. On this one I hope we just skip to the end to the part where we agree to disagree.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have written before how Reformed Theology defines unconditional election, so I'll just suggest you read it in Wikipedia. Even this secular source gets it more correct than what you have asserted. For someone so anti-Calvinist, I'd suggest you put in a bit of work at gaining a better understanding of what you're against.

Amen

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

It doesn't require obedience - it requires faith!!

The faith that we are talking about is faith in Him - that means we believe He is their, like in the Great I AM.
Because we believe He is their we seek Him, and just like it is written (all those who seek find) we find Him.
Because we find Him we hear from Him who we find.
Then, since He is Lord of lord, we get instructions from Him, plus a lot more, but instructions.
Then we are faced with the fact that the One who we think is God is giving us instructions, we the things that He says!!
Doing those things results in "obedience!

Therefore faith in Him results in "obedience"!

Of course there is that BIG PROBLEM, which is that we are people!
For numerous reasons, we don't always do what He says, even if we do believe Him and thus hear Him!!!!

So now comes in the "religious spirit" - a demon straight from Satan - which works on our religious pride. So we come across sounding pious. We stop being honest with ourselves. Still, pride is pride whether from a religious spirit or not. Even sarcastic remarks about "Does anyone want to explain the sufficiency of Christ's work in light of the necessity of our obedience?" has obvious "pride in it!

Certainly there is someone who wants to explain it, and if we were seeking Him then we got the explanation, right?

He even explained in in the Scriptures, which He wants to go over with you, right?

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself

So obviously "obedience comes into play!

Yet one person declares it doesn't, proving they don't know Him, and another person declares they don't sin and always do what He tells them, and also proving they don't know Him.

Yet where are the testimonies?????

Jame 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

I have and will show you my faith by my works, but I will also try to be honest and show you my humanity when I heard from Him, My Lord, and didn't do what He told me.

What I find amazing is that He, being God, can and has gotten me to do things (be obedient) in ways that I could never have gotten myself to do by my great efforts - like when He got me to quite a good job to spend all I had to open and run a Christian bookstore for Him and loose it all for His sake. I was obedient, but only because He is great enough to get me to do it. Then He would clearly ask me to do something so easy and simple that I certainly should be able to do it but couldn't get myself to do that - like the time a fantastic look lady came into the isle I was on and the Lord clearly asked me to inquire if she was going to church tomorrow, which happened to be Easter Sunday, but I could get myself to talk to her. Which was even worse after I asked Him for help and He got her to suddenly talk to me about doing a bar-b-que the next day. It would have been so simply to just say something like 'Are you doing that bar-b-que after going to church?' But I could even get myself to respond like that.

The point is: That a day will come that we will declare that we are worthless servants because we only did what He said, knowing that even needed help from Him. Still He will consider us faithful because we believed that He was there and did say things to us, so we did something for Him.

So what about the question: "How can Christ's work be sufficient for our justification when our salvation also requires our obedience?" - well that is bunch of religious non-sense - that's what about the question! Yeah, we are justified by Him, and we get salvation from Him, and faith with obedience too from Him - but if someone is asking do they know Him? If so, why are they asking us? Ask Him, and if you do know Him it will be easy for Him to show you what was going on in your own life!

I should probably be a bit nicer and more understanding. Yet when you read the Bible you find the authors getting a bit done by those religious spirits in people. Look again at what James wrote - was he not a bit upset with those pretending to be pious but clearly not taking things to the Lord - or why did James write what He did?

James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Wow, writing "you foolish fellow" is not what I would write, but I might think it.

You made powerful arguments brother . Thsnk you for sharing. We learn from view points of everyone.
Wish to ask you a question, in the Goats and the Sheep judgment vision of the Last day Jesus in His capacity of Judge of mankind rejects a lot of believers ( and others ) solely on basis of the fact they did NOT practise loving kindness. And the penalty for it, as pronounced by Christ, was eternal rejection. Why didnt their Faith save them brother?

 

[K2CHRIST]

You made powerful arguments brother . Thsnk you for sharing. We learn from view points of everyone.
Wish to ask you a question, in the Goats and the Sheep judgment vision of the Last day Jesus in His capacity of Judge of mankind rejects a lot of believers ( and others ) solely on basis of the fact they did NOT practise loving kindness. And the penalty for it, as pronounced by Christ, was eternal rejection. Why didnt their Faith save them brother?

Only God is good!!

We read that but sometimes we don't get it!!

Of people Jesus said, "If you being evil"!

The fact is that we are selfish, among other things. The reason is obvious - we didn't make the other people and we are not God, so we think about what is best for us. The possible exception is our kids. We did have something to do with making them and God made it that way for a reason, but even then we don't love them like God because we are not God.

So back to the question: Why doesn't trying to be saved by works instead of faith save people? (That is the questioned asked, though you might not realize it) And the answer is that we are not capable of doing works good enough by our understanding simply because we are evil and only God is good. That fact eliminates us from doing "good works" based upon leaning on our understanding!!

So the only way to do real "good works" is to listen to the Lord and do what He tells us!!

And it take faith in Jesus Christ, to hear from Him, because God is spirit!

Now if anyone really knows Him, this must become apparent quickly, because He reproves those He loves! It is not a coincident that Rev 3:19 tells us that He reproves those He loves and the next verse Rev 3:20 tells us that He stands at the door knocking and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them. We have to want reproof from Him if we are going to actually hear Him talking to us, even though He is just standing there talking to us! The person who leans on their own understanding does not want to hear from Him simply because they don't want to be reproved!!

So we have "Christians" who say they believe in Him, but their belief in God is a belief that He is either dead or is in a far off place called heaven. So they say, "I believe in God/Jesus" but they don't believe that He is near them!! That faith will not save them!!

Moses explained that the Word was near them - in their hearts and in their mouth, but they said at the mountain, "Let not God speak to us". They didn't want the reproof, so they didn't want to except the fact that the Lord is God, meaning He is still running the heavens and the earth whether we know or want to know it.

The faith that saves you is a faith the Jesus Christ is the Word of God and that He is near you, because He has sent His Holy Spirit to talk to your spirit, today. That is happening, but if you say in your heart 'No, I refuse to believe He is there knocking at the door of my heart with His voice - and thus a person thus tells themselves that they believe in God but He is either dead or in some far off place called heaven to return someday - thereby making for themselves an excuse to not listen to Him, the great I AM, and the Lord of lords and King of kings. With their ears they don't hear because they don't want to hear, because they don't want reproof, because they want themselves to be king and lord of their lives. That faith will not save them!!

Which brings us back to the goats and sheep statement made and our consideration of that judgement coming in the end times!!

When your physical life comes to an end, and end time if you will, you spirit comes forth because the flesh has faded away like grass. So what happens then? Where is your spirit going? Will that angels harvest what is good and send that which is not to be burnt up? If only God is good, then only that which belongs to God will be saved! And what belongs to God except that which He has been using? God made all things, but some are holy (used by Him for His glory) and some are not holy. They might be pretending obedience to Him, but only those that hear Him and are doing what He asked are Holy (being used by Him). Those leaning on their own understanding, even if they consider their understanding a "Christian" understanding, are not then saved!

I went long, but it is all very simple really. Either a person is listening to the words the Lord tells them or they are not. If they are listening to the words the Lord tells them they of course know it. They can tell you what the Lord has told them. Oh - the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit, so they might have gotten something wrong, but they don't follow that voice, in general. They might get tricked hear or their, but not as a rule. They know that only God is good. Yeah, they are still that selfish person, but they are the selfish person who listen to the Lord because they know only He is good, not them. They might not always do what He askes because they are still that selfish person, but they do what He askes because they know only He is good. So they seek His voice, at least at times every day. They listen and hear Him talking to them through out the day called "Today" because He is standing there knocking with His voice.

His sheep do hear His voice!! And that mean we hear words from Him, Today!

He just told me it is time to say 'good night" I talk to Him and listen to Him while I'm in bed and we will talk back and forth, and exchange words. Is that not how it is with all "Christians"?

 

[Hospes]

You made powerful arguments brother . Thsnk you for sharing. We learn from view points of everyone.
Wish to ask you a question, in the Goats and the Sheep judgment vision of the Last day Jesus in His capacity of Judge of mankind rejects a lot of believers ( and others ) solely on basis of the fact they did NOT practise loving kindness. And the penalty for it, as pronounced by Christ, was eternal rejection. Why didnt their Faith save them brother?

Rajesh, let me try to give some input using a different passage of scripture I think you'll like:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21–23 (ESV)​

Notice that Jesus does not argue with the claims of "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" Given this, I think their claims were true: they really had done "many mighty works" in Jesus' name. By all appearances, they were walking in obedience to the Gospel yet they were ultimately tossed out of God's presence. So even with obedience one may not be saved.

What is Jesus' charge against them? "I never knew you." You see, if a person truly knows Jesus, they will obey. If a person claims to be a believer in Christ yet does lead a life characterized by obedience, then they do not know Him. On the other hand, if they lead a life with all the appearances of obeying Him, they still may not know Him and may still be lost. What is required for salvation is that a person be adopted by God as His child. Obedience will be the "fruit" of that adoption, but it is not a requirement of adoption. God does the adoption, our response is obedience. And even our obedience is a work by Him in and through us. For we are to "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in [us], both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 (ESV) So even in what we think of as our working out of our salvation, we are to recognize at the bottom of it all is Him working in us to desire and to carry out His will. Do you see that even our obedience is a gift from God, and "not a result of works [i.e. obedience], so that no one may boast"? With St. Augustine, we pray "Give what you command and command what you will."

We are saved by faith alone and such faith will "bring about the obedience of faith" Romans 16:26 (ESV) If our obedience is a requirement of being born again and we provided that critical ingredient, then we have much to boast about in that we brought about our own salvation. Of this I am sure: God saved me, I did not.

 

[K2CHRIST]

What is Jesus' charge against them? "I never knew you."

I love it - someone who understands!

Yes - the charge Jesus has against them is that He never knew them!!

We don't know someone because we read their book. We don't know them because we saw a movie/dream that they made. We don't know someone because we see a picture/vision that they made. The fact is that we get to know people because we spend time talking with them. So it is that Jesus explained that He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice He will come into them and eat with them and them with Him. He is asking us to get to know Him, like a guy might ask a girl to get something to eat with Him so they can talk and get to know each other! And He is standing there knocking with His voice to everyone who is anyone, because it is written if "anyone" hears His voice.

The Father commanded from the mountain, "Listen to Him" (This is My Son with whom I am well-pleased, Listen to Him)
Thru Moses, God had them put the command "Hear O Israel" on their door post.
Thru Isaiah, God told them "Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the LORD speaks,"
Thru Malachi, God told them "And now this commandment is for you, O priests. If you do not listen, and if you do not take it to heart to give honor to My name,” says the LORD of hosts, “then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings; and indeed, I have cursed them already, because you are not taking it to heart."

It is a command that we listen to Jesus Christ, which can be done via the Holy Spirit who does not speak on His own initiative but as He hears He speaks and take the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ, the Son, and gives them to our spirit. (See Jn16)

So it is right to ask "What is Jesus' charge against them?" And also correct to point out that it is that He never knew them!!

They did hear His voice knocking at the door and open up to Him. They instead leaned on their own understanding of what they read, like the Pharisees and Sadducees before them. They perhaps got a dream like Nebuchadnezzar, but because they don't listen to Him they could not get the interpretation for themselves. They might even see the writing on the wall, but don't understand that it is for them, like Belshazzar.

It is not so hard to understand. The Lord Jesus Christ is a person who wants to get to know you personally! He wants that so much that He is just standing there trying to get your attention with His voice. That is happening everyday called "Today" but the unbeliever does not believe that. They might say they believe in God but they are proven wrong by the simple fact that they never got to know Him by simply opening up to Him and what He had to say to them. They just never got to know Him, and that is the charge against them.

And it shows. It becomes fairly obvious fairly quickly to anyone who really does know Him! And for what should be obvious reasons!

If you know Him you are not worried about some judgement day in the future He might have, because you and Him are talking "Today". Ok - He is going to take those who don't listen to Him and separate them from us who do walk and talk with Him. The importance of that information to get us to try and explain to them what they need to do, "Today" and not to concern ourselves with whether I am doing well enough by my understanding. I am not doing well enough by my understanding. I know that because I know Him who is perfect and He is absolutely not me. I am saved because Him has decided I am saved by faith, and a faith that means I talk to Him, Today.

Oh, I can get mad at Him, simply because I am a person. I still hear from Him everyday called "Today" because I still believe in Him even on days that I might get mad at Him. Now I fear Him, because He like a Father might punish me. Frankly, I am afraid to steal, not because I might get caught but because He might make sure I am caught.

When He came into my life I didn't like wearing a seat belt. I had been driving over twenty years and never had a problem, but He started telling me that He wanted me wearing my seat belt because it was the law. It wasn't that He could continue to keep me from needing the seat belt, but because it was the law of the land He wanted me wearing it. It didn't do it and very promptly got two tickets for it. I should not have gotten either ticket. One cop pulled me over when I hadn't done anything wrong that he could have seen, but when he saw I didn't have a seat belt on I got a ticket. To this day I have no idea why he pulled me over, because he was never in a position to have noticed the seat belt until after he pulled me over. The second time I got pulled over to making an illegal u-turn but the cop was wrong. It was a residential area and it is perfect legal to make a u-turn in a residential area, which I found out in the traffic school I had to take, but again I got a ticket for the seat belt.

Now any cop should have known about it being legal to make a u-turn in a residential area. So why did that cop not realize that? I am not afraid of the cop, I am afraid of God and not listening to Him. He can keep the cop from seeing something right in front of him, but God can also cause the cop to pull you over on a whim (an inspiration from God) even if the cop doesn't know the Lord.

Prov 13: 24 He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

The Lord loves those who listen to Him and He makes sure they are brought up correctly. I now wear my seat belt and try to follow the laws of this land the best I can, and that simply because I fear Him who loves me and talks to me "Today". I know Him and He knows me. We talk, but not everyone holding a Bible knows Him. Many are trying to justify themselves by their good works based on their understanding! They should be worried about a judgement day.

 

[stovebolts]

Rajesh, let me try to give some input using a different passage of scripture I think you'll like:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21–23 (ESV)

I know this wasn’t directed at me, so please forgive my interruption.

I see that verse a bit differently than you. Chapter 7 of Matthew is a conclusion to what started in Chapter 5. So it’s always best to keep chapters 5 through 7 as a single set of teachings by Jesus.

For me and in my own words, Jesus goes on to say in the following verses that it’s a matter of heart and I’m reminded of the story about Simon the sorcerer in Acts. Yes, those in chapter 7 verses 21 -23 did great things in the name of the Lord, but like Simon, they were self serving. They were not obedient through saving faith, but rather their motivation was selfish, and for their own gain.

The Apostle Paul also writes about those who preach the Gospel for self gain. Their reward is in this life, and not the world to come. Regardless, Paul praises God that the Gospel is preached, even if it is out of selfishness of greed.

The way I understand this is simple. It’s not so much what you believe, but why you believe. The Demons believe, but the why is much different than Abram’s why.

 

[Hospes]

I know this wasn’t directed at me, so please forgive my interruption.

I see that verse a bit differently than you. Chapter 7 of Matthew is a conclusion to what started in Chapter 5. So it’s always best to keep chapters 5 through 7 as a single set of teachings by Jesus.

For me and in my own words, Jesus goes on to say in the following verses that it’s a matter of heart and I’m reminded of the story about Simon the sorcerer in Acts. Yes, those in chapter 7 verses 21 -23 did great things in the name of the Lord, but like Simon, they were self serving. They were not obedient through faith, but rather their motivation was selfish, and for their own gain.

The Apostle Paul also writes about those who preach the Gospel for self gain. Their reward is in this life, and not the world to come. Regardless, Paul praises God that the Gospel is preached, even if it is out of selfishness of greed.

The way I understand this is simple. It’s not so much what you believe, but why you believe. The Demons believe, but the why is much different than Abram’s why.

I welcome your interruption!

I see nothing in what you wrote that indicates you and I see it differently.

Would I be clearer if I added that the "many mighty works in your name" were not works indicating "the obedience of faith" but rather works born of wrong motives rather than from knowing Christ? In essence, they were faux works.

As you wrote, what makes a good work good truly is a matter of the heart. I believe that for someone who knows Christ, the motive for obedience is their love for Christ. As Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15 (ESV) The condition is love for Jesus, the result is obedience to His commandments. Truly, on our love for God and one another "depends all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:40 (ESV)

If you still think we see it differently, I welcome you to explain to me further what you are seeing that I am missing. Never know, I may learn something!

 

[jerry63935]

We are saved by faith alone

gosh can you direct me to where you buy your Bible ? mine says by grace through faith ..so in essence all i need is just faith ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure if we disagree on any of this, but your tone seems to indicate we do. (I could be reading your tone wrong.)

I agree the gift is salvation by grace through faith. For salvation to be a gift and "not of [our] own doing" and "not the results of works", all that is necessary for salvation also must be gifted to us. If faith is a necessary ingredient of salvation and salvation is a gift, it would be odd to think that the faith is not a gift while salvation is. Furthermore, the Greek word used for saved is in the perfect tense, indicating it is fully secured for the person saved; it is a done deal. We know from other passages there is another aspect of salvation that is ongoing in a believer's life and is completed upon a believer's death, but in this passage the Greek means the completed act of regeneration, i.e. being "born again" in Christ.

Hi Hospes,
You have an interesting concept about faith and grace.
I agree that salvation is not by works.
It is by grace only....we get something from God that we do not deserve.
But those who come to believe will receive this gift of salvation by the atoning work of Jesus, which God planned before the beginning of time.
So, since Jesus died for everyone,
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Those that believe in Him will be saved.
Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The N.T. states that our salvation is in the past, present and future tense, I believe we agree on that
In Ephesians 2:8 the saved tense is past, it was completed at some time in the past.
We are justified by God and we are adopted into His family as His children.
We are regenerated when we are born again.

However, I do believe that faith is a gift in the sense that everything from God is a gift...
but, I understand grace to be God's part in calling men to Himself,
and faith is our answer to the call.

Ephesians 1:13, posted above states that after listening to the gospel, WE believe and thus received the Holy Spirit.
We are saved by God's grace through the instrument of faith...faith is OUR part.
Faith is a response to God, a step we are willing to take.
Man's free will acceptance of faith is essential in establishing a relationship with God.

There are many passages where we are called to believe.
Romans 4:1-3
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Abraham BELIEVED GOD (had faith in God) and it was credited to him as righteousness.

My aim for pointing to the scripture and asking about the use of the word "for" is to show that the passage says nothing about obedience being required as part of being born again, but it is rather pointing out that salvation "brings about the obedience of faith." Romans 16:26 (ESV) This passage is not stating obedience is a requirement of salvation, but obedience is rather the result of salvation. Those born again in Christ always obey the Gospel, but this passage cannot be used to claim obedience is required for salvation. The word "for" used in the Greek could accurately be translated "resulting in" or "leading to". There is no way that "for the obedience of faith" implies that obedience is required for faith or salvation. The passage does show that true faith in Christ absolutely will bear the fruit of obedience.

In fact, the NASB uses the words LEADING TO.
I agree that salvation is not by works....it is a free gift of God.
Obedience, however, begins immediately after salvation.
Once we are saved, we are required to obey.
I like to say that God does require obedience, but we also will desire to obey
Him if we are disciples of Jesus.

Obedience of faith-----how do y ou understand:

Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

Paul states he has received the Apostleship to go and preach the good news to the Gentiles in order to bring about, in them also,
the obedience of faith. . . Obedience to God through their faith in Him.


Romans 16:25-26
25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;


Jesus has been manifested and is preached in all the nations and this will LEAD to obedience to Jesus by faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have written before how Reformed Theology defines unconditional election, so I'll just suggest you read it in Wikipedia. Even this secular source gets it more correct than what you have asserted. For someone so anti-Calvinist, I'd suggest you put in a bit of work at gaining a better understanding of what you're against.

Why do I need Wikipedia?
I quoted John Calvin.
Does John Calvin not now what calvinism is??

Why do you understand it differently than how Calvin explains it?
Does it sound too harsh?
Does it need to be sweetened up?

 

[GodsGrace]

i dont agree with Calvinism on the plan of salvation. but to be honest there no more radical than apostolic oneness Pentecostal. you have to speak in tongues to be saved baptized in Jesus name only . i have face book friend in Scotland . i listened to her preacher on you tube. who preached a good message .. bring up the j.w Mormons i will call it like it is . yes i am very familiar with the above scriptures

All denominations agree that the JWs are not Christian and are preaching a different gospel.
I don't know about the Oneness movement and cannot spend the time to learn about them.
From what you write, it sounds like a different gospel to me.
I don't remember Jesus saying we had to speak in tongues.
Baptism in Jesus' name means HIS name and not John's.
But the FORMULA is: In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said this.

Doesn't Jesus know the Christian religion???!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not from me. My guess/hope is wondering is not really interested in a protracted argument on the definition of Unconditional Election, either.

I think we actually have a "working relationship" where she'll write something that triggers me and then I whine about it and it triggers her and we end up just agreeing to disagree. On this one I hope we just skip to the end to the part where we agree to disagree.

Skip to the end part?
Wha?
And miss all the fun.

I don't call what we do arguing...and I don't think you do either.
I'll tell you why I go on about this and also OSAS (not the same as Perseverance of the Saints):

First because there are persons reading along that may need to hear both sides because they're confused
or are considering which side to land on.

Second because, really, I just do not understand how anyone could be of the reformed faith.
I like the preaching of the biggies, Macarthur, Piper, Sproul (+) but they get pretty tongue tied when
they have to explain something calvinist/reformed.

So, I think it's good to exchange views.

 

[Hospes]

gosh can you direct me to where you buy your Bible ? mine says by grace through faith ..so in essence all i need is just faith ?

I guess I could have been more accurate to write that we are saved by grace, through faith, alone. Sorry for confusing you.

To help clear up any more confusion:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God... Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)​

God grants/gifts to us salvation. Saved "by grace" means we are favored by the Giver of our salvation, i.e. He gives us salvation without Him being obliged to give it. He simply "favors us" for His own purposes, not because we merit it.

Saved "through faith" is the same as "by means of faith." If I gin up faith on my own in order to attain salvation, then salvation is the result of a transaction: a swap of His salvation for my faith. If it is a transaction, then salvation is no longer a gift. But it is a gift, so both salvation and faith are gifts given by God.

Let me know if you have questions.

BTW, the (ESV) after my references indicates the Bible I am using is the Extra Special Version translation. You may buy it at the nearest store where Bibles are sold.

 

[jerry63935]

If I gin up faith on my own in order to attain salvation, then salvation is the result of a transaction: a swap of His salvation for my faith. If it is a transaction, then salvation is no longer a gift. But it is a gift, so both salvation and faith are gifts given by God.

we all have faith except maybe atheist agnostics even in my heathen days i had faith i just reused Jesus

 

[Hospes]

Hi Hospes,
You have an interesting concept about faith and grace.
I agree that salvation is not by works.
It is by grace only....we get something from God that we do not deserve.
But those who come to believe will receive this gift of salvation by the atoning work of Jesus, which God planned before the beginning of time.
So, since Jesus died for everyone,
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Those that believe in Him will be saved.
Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The N.T. states that our salvation is in the past, present and future tense, I believe we agree on that
In Ephesians 2:8 the saved tense is past, it was completed at some time in the past.
We are justified by God and we are adopted into His family as His children.
We are regenerated when we are born again.

However, I do believe that faith is a gift in the sense that everything from God is a gift...
but, I understand grace to be God's part in calling men to Himself,
and faith is our answer to the call.

Ephesians 1:13, posted above states that after listening to the gospel, WE believe and thus received the Holy Spirit.
We are saved by God's grace through the instrument of faith...faith is OUR part.
Faith is a response to God, a step we are willing to take.
Man's free will acceptance of faith is essential in establishing a relationship with God.

There are many passages where we are called to believe.
Romans 4:1-3
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Abraham BELIEVED GOD (had faith in God) and it was credited to him as righteousness.



In fact, the NASB uses the words LEADING TO.
I agree that salvation is not by works....it is a free gift of God.
Obedience, however, begins immediately after salvation.
Once we are saved, we are required to obey.
I like to say that God does require obedience, but we also will desire to obey
Him if we are disciples of Jesus.

Obedience of faith-----how do y ou understand:

Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

Paul states he has received the Apostleship to go and preach the good news to the Gentiles in order to bring about, in them also,
the obedience of faith. . . Obedience to God through their faith in Him.


Romans 16:25-26
25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;


Jesus has been manifested and is preached in all the nations and this will LEAD to obedience to Jesus by faith.

I scoured your post to find something I disagreed with and it's with a bit of a sense of failure I have to tell you I agreed with it all. Please do not be disappointed in me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen

Hi FF,,,, You also don't think John Calvin knew about Calvinism?? My quote was from HIS book that HE wrote.
BTW....I found that video by Macarthur, stating that God created evil.
Here it is:

 

[GodsGrace]

I scoured your post to find something I disagreed with and it's with a bit of a sense of failure I have to tell you I agreed with it all. Please do not be disappointed in me.

I'm not disappointed.
I'm shocked!
'night.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess I could have been more accurate to write that we are saved by grace, through faith, alone. Sorry for confusing you.

To help clear up any more confusion:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God... Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)​

God grants/gifts to us salvation. Saved "by grace" means we are favored by the Giver of our salvation, i.e. He gives us salvation without Him being obliged to give it. He simply "favors us" for His own purposes, not because we merit it.

Saved "through faith" is the same as "by means of faith." If I gin up faith on my own in order to attain salvation, then salvation is the result of a transaction: a swap of His salvation for my faith. If it is a transaction, then salvation is no longer a gift. But it is a gift, so both salvation and faith are gifts given by God.

Let me know if you have questions.

BTW, the (ESV) after my references indicates the Bible I am using is the Extra Special Version translation. You may buy it at the nearest store where Bibles are sold.

I don't believe faith is a gift.
I knew you wouldn't agree with all I said !