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The Good News/The Bad News

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CALVINIST is just a name tag it will either burn off going down or fall off going up.. God does not look at the denomination. he looks at the heart ! i have friends of all types even Calvinist/reformed
I tend to agree with you.
But the N.T. states that there can be a different gospel preached.
(and to beware of it)

Here are just two verses, there are more:

2 Corinthians 11:4

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

Galatians 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.


The O.P. is about the good news.
Do the reformed preach the good news?
Is Calvinism another gospel since it was not preached until 1,500 AD?

And what OTHER GOSPEL do you think the writers of the N.T. were alluding to?
 
the trinity is either true or not .

Jesus is either the son of God or not .it can't be true that one mess is ok but not Jehovah's witnesses .one ness is modalism ,Jesus on the earth ,yet a voice is heard from heaven saying then he is the son of God . I,get the trinity is hard to understand but well what exactly Jesus when God the father answered him,in modalism?they dance around that .

can't consistenly say oness is,biblical but not the Jesus of the jw
Doesn't Oneness believe that Jesus is God?
The JW don't believe Jesus is God....
They believe He is a special son of God.
(they keep changing what they believe - now it's this).
 
HA...

I kind of like the above post.... but it comes across a bit religious. For example - Jesus did and said only what the Father said and picked up His the cross, but do we really think that there was "No greater joy" than going through what Jesus did at the cross?????

Picking up our cross, our instructions, might not be as bad as His cross, but following the instructions the Lord gives you doesn't just give you "No Greater Joy"!! That is just saying something that sounds good and shows that we really don't know what we are talking about - meaning we really don't know Him like we pretend.

OH Yes - There are times of "NO GREATER JOY", but it is not all like that!!

Perhaps riding a bike is a good comparison. Riding a bike can be great fun, but what if you fall? In those moments you have greater harm because you were going faster when you fell. And what about if you stay on the bike and come to a hill? Then the going gets tough and take a lot of hard work - not so much fun then! And bikes sometimes break down and then you feel a bit stranded. Oh - I suppose the bike gets you where you need to go faster than walking, and the downhill grade on a bike can be fun... you might also get in good shape riding a bike, but it's not all as fantastic as it is sometime made out to be. So perhaps comparing a walk with the Lord to riding a bike is a good comparison, but lets be honest. We do know Him, right? Some times I wonder with some of the things I read.

Jer 20:2 Pashhur had Jeremiah the prophet beaten and put him in the stocks that were at the upper Benjamin Gate, which was by the house of the LORD.

Yeah - Jerimiah must have felt he got on the wrong bike!


Jer 20:7 O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived; You have overcome me and prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all day long; Everyone mocks me.

Have you never felt that way after doing what the Lord told you??

I remember the first thing He had me doing when I got to know Him, and that was telling people at work about Him. It was awesome, and I saw Him do some amazing things, but they fired me. Just ten minutes before they fired me I found out that someone I prayed for had their wrist healed by the Lord, and He was indeed giving me great joy while I was being told they were firing me, but to make it sound it is all just fantastic is just wrong.
I can agree with the above.
But I believe the other poster was describing that following Jesus will actually make our life easier.
As far as your work experience,,,,we have the same problem those of the O.T. had....
We THINK God is telling us something, but it really is not HIM, but our own mind/heart/desire.
If one wants to witness for God it has to be done in such a way that it will not cause harm....
and yet, sometimes it will ! There is a price to be paid, we must count the cost.

Jesus said there would be a price to pay for being a Christian - a follower of His.
Luke 14:27
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
 
hi, wondering ...

the Ephesians verse hints at predestination. The parable of the sower -strongly- hints at the P in TULIP, namely "perseverance of the saints," in that the good soil people will bear fruit, even under harsh conditions.

btw-- The doctrine of predestination -never- held that those who desperately wanted to be saved by Christ cannot or will not be saved. Rather, the idea is that because of our wretched state ('total depravity,' the T in TULIP), only those who have been preselected, -thru no merit of their own- (U, "unconditional election") will heed the 'inward call of The Gospel" (I, "Irresistible grace") and then be regenerated by the Holy Ghost. That leaves L, "limited atonement," which...-eek- is controversial and insulting to many, but...

Christ Jesus' Crucifixion and Resurrection are, in fact, sufficient to save all...and His atonement does save all...of the elect. Hence, "limited atonement," Christ's once-and-for all sacrifice that effectively saves all -vessels of mercy- . :)
 
With all this love for obedience, I am wondering how Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection is sufficient for our salvation when it seems that we, in and of ourselves, must add obedience to the mix to gain salvation. Does anyone want to explain the sufficiency of Christ's work in light of the necessity of our obedience? Maybe a more clear question is:

"How can Christ's work be sufficient for our justification when our salvation also requires our obedience?"
Does our salvation end at Justification? (or initial salvation).
Does it not continue on to Sanctification?

God sets us aside for service to Him.
It is at the end of our life that we receive our salvation....
now we can only look forward to it and be joyful that we will
receive it if we persevere.


Matthew 24:11-13
11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Jesus stressed that we must not be lawless....Matthew 7:23 because the lawless will not see heaven.
And that we must obey Him....John 14:23 If we love Jesus, He will make His abode with us.

Hebrews 6:12
12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

1 Peter 1:8-9
8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


And you mention love for obedience.
Jesus said, IF you love me , you will keep my commandments. John 14:15 (exact wording).


As to Christ's sacrifice being sufficient...

Why do YOU believe the sacrifice was necessary?
I believe it was necessary to buy humanity back from the grips of satan.
This would be the ransom theory of the atonement.
 
After scouring Calvin's Institutes, all the writing of Edwards, Spurgeon's sermons, and DesiringGod.org, I decided to find my Bible and see what it says. :wink (The winky face is meant as a clue to those who are blind to tongue-in-cheek humor.)

Are these passages in Romans forgetting the necessity of our obedience in stating what brought about our justification? (I am assuming those that are justified are saved. Let me know if there is disagreement.)

“[They] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood.” Romans 3:24-25 (ESV)​

Ephesians 2:8 is often spoken of to determine what the gift of God is.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


It is accepted by most theologians that know Greek that the gift is SALVATION.

You have just supported this by posting Romans 3:24-25 which states that Justification is a gift. Justification = Salvation.
"They are justified by His grace as a gift".
“[He] was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” Romans 4:25 (ESV)​
“Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.” Romans 5:9 (ESV)​
JLB, I also noticed the word "for" in the verse you quote.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Romans 16:26​

Any idea what that "for" is there for? Or what implication it adds to the sentence?
My NASB says LEADING to the obedience of faith, instead of FOR.
To me it just means that we are to have faith in God and obey Him...the obedience of faith.
Also spoken of in Romans 1:5 referring to the teaching of obedience to the Gentiles.
 
Doesn't Oneness believe that Jesus is God?
The JW don't believe Jesus is God....
They believe He is a special son of God.
(they keep changing what they believe - now it's this).
no to oneness ,because Jesus didnt become son until the son was called as such
 
It doesn't require obedience - it requires faith!!

The faith that we are talking about is faith in Him - that means we believe He is their, like in the Great I AM.
Because we believe He is their we seek Him, and just like it is written (all those who seek find) we find Him.
Because we find Him we hear from Him who we find.
Then, since He is Lord of lord, we get instructions from Him, plus a lot more, but instructions.
Then we are faced with the fact that the One who we think is God is giving us instructions, we the things that He says!!
Doing those things results in "obedience!

Therefore faith in Him results in "obedience"!

Of course there is that BIG PROBLEM, which is that we are people!
For numerous reasons, we don't always do what He says, even if we do believe Him and thus hear Him!!!!

So now comes in the "religious spirit" - a demon straight from Satan - which works on our religious pride. So we come across sounding pious. We stop being honest with ourselves. Still, pride is pride whether from a religious spirit or not. Even sarcastic remarks about "Does anyone want to explain the sufficiency of Christ's work in light of the necessity of our obedience?" has obvious "pride in it!

Certainly there is someone who wants to explain it, and if we were seeking Him then we got the explanation, right?

He even explained in in the Scriptures, which He wants to go over with you, right?

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself

So obviously "obedience comes into play!

Yet one person declares it doesn't, proving they don't know Him, and another person declares they don't sin and always do what He tells them, and also proving they don't know Him.

Yet where are the testimonies?????

Jame 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

I have and will show you my faith by my works, but I will also try to be honest and show you my humanity when I heard from Him, My Lord, and didn't do what He told me.

What I find amazing is that He, being God, can and has gotten me to do things (be obedient) in ways that I could never have gotten myself to do by my great efforts - like when He got me to quite a good job to spend all I had to open and run a Christian bookstore for Him and loose it all for His sake. I was obedient, but only because He is great enough to get me to do it. Then He would clearly ask me to do something so easy and simple that I certainly should be able to do it but couldn't get myself to do that - like the time a fantastic look lady came into the isle I was on and the Lord clearly asked me to inquire if she was going to church tomorrow, which happened to be Easter Sunday, but I could get myself to talk to her. Which was even worse after I asked Him for help and He got her to suddenly talk to me about doing a bar-b-que the next day. It would have been so simply to just say something like 'Are you doing that bar-b-que after going to church?' But I could even get myself to respond like that.

The point is: That a day will come that we will declare that we are worthless servants because we only did what He said, knowing that even needed help from Him. Still He will consider us faithful because we believed that He was there and did say things to us, so we did something for Him.

So what about the question: "How can Christ's work be sufficient for our justification when our salvation also requires our obedience?" - well that is bunch of religious non-sense - that's what about the question! Yeah, we are justified by Him, and we get salvation from Him, and faith with obedience too from Him - but if someone is asking do they know Him? If so, why are they asking us? Ask Him, and if you do know Him it will be easy for Him to show you what was going on in your own life!

I should probably be a bit nicer and more understanding. Yet when you read the Bible you find the authors getting a bit done by those religious spirits in people. Look again at what James wrote - was he not a bit upset with those pretending to be pious but clearly not taking things to the Lord - or why did James write what He did?

James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Wow, writing "you foolish fellow" is not what I would write, but I might think it.
Hi K2CHRIST
Very good post!
I think you've included a bit of everything in there.

I agree with all you've stated, I just want to say that sometimes we want to go a little beyond what we know in our
heart. We know that Jesus died for us....that's it.
But maybe we want to understand why.....
So I read a little about the different atonement theories.
I don't think this is being pious...maybe it's like when you want to get to know someone a bit more?

Anyway, good post.
 
Do you think someone could have faith in Him and yet not have the results that they obey Him? I land on the answer being "No."
You must have been on other forums.
Some will say they are saved and have faith and believe...
but then will turn around and say that obedience is not even necessary
because Jesus covers for ALL.

We may think they're not saved...but they think they are and this is dangerous ground
to be on. Some believe they could live however they want to and still be saved.
 
JLB, you restated what you believe (Some of which I am in agreement.), but did you address my two questions?

I thought I answered the "for" question.


...is for the obedience of faith required for salvation.



JLB
 
It doesn't require obedience - it requires faith!!

"By faith" means God spoke to someone and they did (obeyed) what He said.

Without acting in obedience to what He said,
then the faith we received from Him when He spoke to us is dead; being incomplete.



JLB
 
hi, wondering ...

the Ephesians verse hints at predestination. The parable of the sower -strongly- hints at the P in TULIP, namely "perseverance of the saints," in that the good soil people will bear fruit, even under harsh conditions.

btw-- The doctrine of predestination -never- held that those who desperately wanted to be saved by Christ cannot or will not be saved. Rather, the idea is that because of our wretched state ('total depravity,' the T in TULIP), only those who have been preselected, -thru no merit of their own- (U, "unconditional election") will heed the 'inward call of The Gospel" (I, "Irresistible grace") and then be regenerated by the Holy Ghost. That leaves L, "limited atonement," which...-eek- is controversial and insulting to many, but...

Christ Jesus' Crucifixion and Resurrection are, in fact, sufficient to save all...and His atonement does save all...of the elect. Hence, "limited atonement," Christ's once-and-for all sacrifice that effectively saves all -vessels of mercy- . :)
I know what you mean CE.
Calvin wasn't dumb....he was an intellectual.
Different scholars will read the N.T. and come up with different ideas.
I think, however, it's a problem when we change the character of God.
Don't you think calvinism changes the nature of God??

Two points:

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


If you read the above with no prior knowledge,,,what would you think of it?
How would you answer these questions?

1. What does it mean that we are His workmanship?
2. Why were we created?
3. What did God prepare beforehand?
4. What do we walk in?

I think we need to stop listening to what other men are saying and read for ourselves and listen to what God is telling us.
Read Ephesians 2:4
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us


Doesn't this sound like a merciful and loving God to you?
Is this the God of calvinism?
This is the God we encounter all over the N.T.

I find that different churches will try to teach Predestination, Unconditional Election in a softer way so as not to offend and make persons run out the door.

But how you explain it above is not very clear.
Calvinism states that God ONLY chooses who will be saved and who will perish.

This is from Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

The above is what is meant by Unconditional Election.
If you're taught something different, perhaps you could present the above to the pastor and have
him explain why it is taught incorrectly?
Calvin invented Calvinism....
HE knows what predestination means in his teachings.

As to the sacrifice of Jesus.....
He died for our (believers) sins, but also for those of the whole world.
That would take some serious discussion....(I'm willing).

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
 
Ephesians 2:8 is often spoken of to determine what the gift of God is.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

It is accepted by most theologians that know Greek that the gift is SALVATION.

You have just supported this by posting Romans 3:24-25 which states that Justification is a gift. Justification = Salvation.
"They are justified by His grace as a gift".
Not sure if we disagree on any of this, but your tone seems to indicate we do. (I could be reading your tone wrong.)

I agree the gift is salvation by grace through faith. For salvation to be a gift and "not of [our] own doing" and "not the results of works", all that is necessary for salvation also must be gifted to us. If faith is a necessary ingredient of salvation and salvation is a gift, it would be odd to think that the faith is not a gift while salvation is. Furthermore, the Greek word used for saved is in the perfect tense, indicating it is fully secured for the person saved; it is a done deal. We know from other passages there is another aspect of salvation that is ongoing in a believer's life and is completed upon a believer's death, but in this passage the Greek means the completed act of regeneration, i.e. being "born again" in Christ.
My NASB says LEADING to the obedience of faith, instead of FOR.
To me it just means that we are to have faith in God and obey Him...the obedience of faith.
Also spoken of in Romans 1:5 referring to the teaching of obedience to the Gentiles.
...is for the obedience of faith required for salvation.
My aim for pointing to the scripture and asking about the use of the word "for" is to show that the passage says nothing about obedience being required as part of being born again, but it is rather pointing out that salvation "brings about the obedience of faith." Romans 16:26 (ESV) This passage is not stating obedience is a requirement of salvation, but obedience is rather the result of salvation. Those born again in Christ always obey the Gospel, but this passage cannot be used to claim obedience is required for salvation. The word "for" used in the Greek could accurately be translated "resulting in" or "leading to". There is no way that "for the obedience of faith" implies that obedience is required for faith or salvation. The passage does show that true faith in Christ absolutely will bear the fruit of obedience.
 
Not sure if we disagree on any of this, but your tone seems to indicate we do. (I could be reading your tone wrong.)

I agree the gift is salvation by grace through faith. For salvation to be a gift and "not of [our] own doing" and "not the results of works", all that is necessary for salvation also must be gifted to us. If faith is a necessary ingredient of salvation and salvation is a gift, it would be odd to think that the faith is not a gift while salvation is. Furthermore, the Greek word used for saved is in the perfect tense, indicating it is fully secured for the person saved; it is a done deal. We know from other passages there is another aspect of salvation that is ongoing in a believer's life and is completed upon a believer's death, but in this passage the Greek means the completed act of regeneration, i.e. being "born again" in Christ.


My aim for pointing to the scripture and asking about the use of the word "for" is to show that the passage says nothing about obedience being required as part of being born again, but it is rather pointing out that salvation "brings about the obedience of faith." Romans 16:26 (ESV) This passage is not stating obedience is a requirement of salvation, but obedience is rather the result of salvation. Those born again in Christ always obey the Gospel, but this passage cannot be used to claim obedience is required for salvation. The word "for" used in the Greek could accurately be translated "resulting in" or "leading to". There is no way that "for the obedience of faith" implies that obedience is required for faith or salvation. The passage does show that true faith in Christ absolutely will bear the fruit of obedience.
I was just logging off Hospes and I'd like to read your post when I'm fully awake.
Just quick....my tone is always calm. Did I say ALWAYS?
LOL
'night.
 
The above is what is meant by Unconditional Election.
I have written before how Reformed Theology defines unconditional election, so I'll just suggest you read it in Wikipedia. Even this secular source gets it more correct than what you have asserted. For someone so anti-Calvinist, I'd suggest you put in a bit of work at gaining a better understanding of what you're against.
 
My aim for pointing to the scripture and asking about the use of the word "for" is to show that the passage says nothing about obedience being required as part of being born again, but it is rather pointing out that salvation "brings about the obedience of faith."

The entire book of Romans contextually, is dealing with the obedience of faith required for salvation.


This principle is echoed throughout the New Testament.


IOW, without obedience, faith is dead. Obedience is the action we take in response to the Gospel, by which we are saved; saved by grace through faith; the obedience of faith.


Here are a few examples of obedience in Romans, that show it’s role in our “initial salvation“ (being born again) as well as our completed salvation we receive as an end result of our faith.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17


  • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


again


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

again


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1





JLB
 
I tend to agree with you.
But the N.T. states that there can be a different gospel preached.
(and to beware of it)

Here are just two verses, there are more:

2 Corinthians 11:4

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

Galatians 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.


The O.P. is about the good news.
Do the reformed preach the good news?
Is Calvinism another gospel since it was not preached until 1,500 AD?

And what OTHER GOSPEL do you think the writers of the N.T. were alluding to?
i dont agree with Calvinism on the plan of salvation. but to be honest there no more radical than apostolic oneness Pentecostal. you have to speak in tongues to be saved baptized in Jesus name only . i have face book friend in Scotland . i listened to her preacher on you tube. who preached a good message .. bring up the j.w Mormons i will call it like it is . yes i am very familiar with the above scriptures
 
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