Bible Study The Gospel of John, Greek discussion

[TimothyW]

Thanks,

Here's John 1:13
οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ’ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν.
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

They, not from blood, nor from will of flesh, nor from will of man, but of God were born. (Timmy's translation, γεννάω is implied but but said in the first half of the verse.)
Here is Young's Literal Translation: "who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten."
http://biblehub.com/john/1-13.htm

I like that this says that those who receive Christ become born of God ἀλλ’ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν, "but of God were born". We are new creations in Christ, as Paul says.

 

[TimothyW]

Man, I can't wait for winter to be over so I can get back on that bike.

 

[Chopper]

Man, I can't wait for winter to be over so I can get back on that bike.

Tim, you old biker. Would you take a look at John Chapter two verses 23-25. These verses look to me like, there are people who believe in Christ, but are not really saved because they believed for the wrong reason. Is that right?

 

[Gregg]

Thanks for allowing me to join this forum.
Chopper, Jn 2:22 mentions that the disciples believed [pisteuo] the OT Scriptures and Jesus' words after His Resurrection. In Jn 2:24, Jesus did not entrust Himself [pisteuo, that is to place His Person in their hands], to the "many"; knowing that many of those who believed in His name would turn against Him, calling for His Crucifixion. But regarding those who believed in His name [Jn 2:23], to those who "believed in His name" and "received Him" after His Resurrection Jesus did save [Jn 1:12].

Their understanding of His Name had yet to include His Resurrection; and it is this aspect of His Name that we must know of and believe to be saved, as Paul wrote "and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" [Rom 10:9].

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for allowing me to join this forum.
Chopper, Jn 2:22 mentions that the disciples believed [pisteuo] the OT Scriptures and Jesus' words after His Resurrection. In Jn 2:24, Jesus did not entrust Himself [pisteuo, that is to place His Person in their hands], to the "many"; knowing that many of those who believed in His name would turn against Him, calling for His Crucifixion. But regarding those who believed in His name [Jn 2:23], to those who "believed in His name" and "received Him" after His Resurrection Jesus did save [Jn 1:12].

Their understanding of His Name had yet to include His Resurrection; and it is this aspect of His Name that we must know of and believe to be saved, as Paul wrote "and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" [Rom 10:9].

Well, welcome to the Forum. From what you just posted, I would say that you have a good grasp of the Scriptures. It will be a joy to read other posts and threads that you become involved in. My remarks about John 2:22-25 Have always interested me because, as you know, people say that they have believed on Jesus, but never show any fruit. They simply aren't Biblically saved. I had a professor in Bible College who said that anyone who says that they believe, are saved. I wish I had showed him these verses. I inquired of Timothy because he is very knowledgeable in the Greek. Sometimes the Greek language puts a different slant on things.

 

[Gregg]

Thanks,

Here's John 1:13
οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ’ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν.
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

They, not from blood, nor from will of flesh, nor from will of man, but of God were born. (Timmy's translation, γεννάω is implied but but said in the first half of the verse.)
Here is Young's Literal Translation: "who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten."
http://biblehub.com/john/1-13.htm

I like that this says that those who receive Christ become born of God ἀλλ’ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν, "but of God were born". We are new creations in Christ, as Paul says.

What a blessing that we are born of God, and not "by the will of man", not by our determination [θελήματος, Jn 1:13].

Does this verse imply to you that we are born of God's will or determination? Its seems that God explains His determination and the means of our birth to Nicodemus in John 3.

 

[Chopper]

What a blessing that we are born of God, and not "by the will of man", not by our determination [θελήματος, Jn 1:13].

Does this verse imply to you that we are born of God's will or determination? Its seems that God explains His determination and the means of our birth to Nicodemus in John 3.

I firmly believe that before the world began, YHWH predetermined that I would be His son through faith in His Son. I am what they call a 4 point Calvinist. It was YHWH Who called me and I will be forever grateful to Him to be a part of His Elect.

I see that you are a Greek typing enthusiast. Great! you will have fun in this thread. I only know a little Greek, he owns a pizza shop. (sorry, old joke)

 

[TimothyW]

John 2:23-25
Ὡς δὲ ἦν ἐν τοῖς Ἱεροσολύμοις ἐν τῷ πάσχα ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ, πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, θεωροῦντες αὐτοῦ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐποίει·
αὐτὸς δὲ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἐπίστευεν αὑτὸν αὐτοῖς διὰ τὸ αὐτὸν γινώσκειν πάντας,
καὶ ὅτι οὐ χρείαν εἶχεν ἵνα τις μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου· αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐγίνωσκεν τί ἦν ἐν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ.

ESV
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

I'm not good with answers, but I think you are right. If I saw someone turn water into wine, I would believe he did a miracle, thus "believing in him", but I might not believe in him for salvation, putting my trust in him. Jesus knows who's who.

Matthew 7:21-23 comes to mind:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
ESV

 

[TimothyW]

I inquired of Timothy because he is very knowledgeable in the Greek. Sometimes the Greek language puts a different slant on things.

Actually, I'm not that knowledgeable in Greek, but I'm trying. I'm self taught, from books, and I've been reading the Greek NT for 5 years.
I just think that Greek should (also) be in the hands of laypeople, not just clergymen. If all the Bikers and Barmaids knew how to read Greek, I think there would be a huge increase in Bible knowledge.

 

[Chopper]

John 2:23-25
Ὡς δὲ ἦν ἐν τοῖς Ἱεροσολύμοις ἐν τῷ πάσχα ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ, πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, θεωροῦντες αὐτοῦ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐποίει·
αὐτὸς δὲ Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἐπίστευεν αὑτὸν αὐτοῖς διὰ τὸ αὐτὸν γινώσκειν πάντας,
καὶ ὅτι οὐ χρείαν εἶχεν ἵνα τις μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου· αὐτὸς γὰρ ἐγίνωσκεν τί ἦν ἐν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ.

ESV
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

I'm not good with answers, but I think you are right. If I saw someone turn water into wine, I would believe he did a miracle, thus "believing in him", but I might not believe in him for salvation, putting my trust in him. Jesus knows who's who.

Matthew 7:21-23 comes to mind:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
ESV

Excellent reply my learned friend, I needed you to verify my thinking. I so much appreciate your posts, thank you for being my Forum friend!

 

[Chopper]

Actually, I'm not that knowledgeable in Greek, but I'm trying. I'm self taught, from books, and I've been reading the Greek NT for 5 years.
I just think that Greek should (also) be in the hands of laypeople, not just clergymen. If all the Bikers and Barmaids knew how to read Greek, I think there would be a huge increase in Bible knowledge.

Ha, ha, that's funny, you crack me up!

 

[Gregg]

I firmly believe that before the world began, YHWH predetermined that I would be His son through faith in His Son. I am what they call a 4 point Calvinist. It was YHWH Who called me and I will be forever grateful to Him to be a part of His Elect.

I see that you are a Greek typing enthusiast. Great! you will have fun in this thread. I only know a little Greek, he owns a pizza shop. (sorry, old joke)

Amen to your post regarding His Son and our place in Him.

We must have the same Greek friend. I also cut and past as a pizza shop owner.

 

[Gregg]

Actually, I'm not that knowledgeable in Greek, but I'm trying. I'm self taught, from books, and I've been reading the Greek NT for 5 years.
I just think that Greek should (also) be in the hands of laypeople, not just clergymen. If all the Bikers and Barmaids knew how to read Greek, I think there would be a huge increase in Bible knowledge.

Thanks for beginning this study. I appreciate your courage and determination. I look forward to this study of the fourth Gospel.

 

[Chopper]

Tim, meet our new friend Gregg. Gregg, meet my old biker buddy Timothy.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

An interesting and informative thread, much appreciated. I love John's Gospel, its my favorite.

There isn't anything better for the soul than Bible study and also plain simple devotional Bible reading to "fix things" ... when all else fails, read the Instructions .. /grin .. [they're both inspired and inspiring and they can actually fix a lot of our problems.]

God Bless and Happy New Year to everybody in the thread.

Hi Chopper! Say, as an old line traditional Bible believing Presbyterian, I found the first 3 sentences in your post 87 to be a real blessing. /smile

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

 

[Chopper]

An interesting and informative thread, much appreciated. I love John's Gospel, its my favorite.

There isn't anything better for the soul than Bible study and also plain simple devotional Bible reading to "fix things" ... when all else fails, read the Instructions .. /grin .. [they're both inspired and inspiring and they can actually fix a lot of our problems.]

God Bless and Happy New Year to everybody in the thread.

Hi Chopper! Say, as an old line traditional Bible believing Presbyterian, I found the first 3 sentences in your post 87 to be a real blessing. /smile

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

Thank you Jack, Welcome to this thread. I don't think I've had the pleasure of reading any posts from you. Please don't be a stranger.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

Thank you Jack, Welcome to this thread.

I don't think I've had the pleasure of reading any posts from you.

Please don't be a stranger.

You're welcome and thank you for the welcome to the thread Chopper.

I think I have a little over 100 posts here and I remember I enjoyed writing them very much. As I recall they were nice chatty discussions with some interesting people. I'm gonna have to go back and look them up to see what I said .. lol ..

I plan to spend more time over here at CF.net, there are some good Christian folks at his site ~~ I have read enough posts here to know that for certain.

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♪ ♫

 

[Chopper]

You're welcome and thank you for the welcome to the thread Chopper.

I think I have a little over 100 posts here and I remember I enjoyed writing them very much. As I recall they were nice chatty discussions with some interesting people. I'm gonna have to go back and look them up to see what I said .. lol ..

I plan to spend more time over here at CF.net, there are some good Christian folks at his site ~~ I have read enough posts here to know that for certain.

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♪ ♫

You are right in that the members are very good. We run across a few bad eggs now and then but for the most part it's a great Forum. The Administration is top notch! They stay tuned to all the goings on and enforce the rules very professionally. We all have a great time and have fun with each other. I'm sure that you'll like your experience here, enjoy!

 

[TimothyW]

Cool, we got a good group of people here at the "Biker Bar"!

Here's John 1:14, Greek and ESV:
Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ Πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The word μονογενοῦς, (monogenous) sticks out to me in this verse. ESV translates it "only Son", but it also means "only born", "only begotten", "one of a kind" - mono genus, "unique".
http://biblehub.com/greek/3439.htm

Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. KJV

 

[Chopper]

Cool, we got a good group of people here at the "Biker Bar"!

Here's John 1:14, Greek and ESV:
Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ Πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The word μονογενοῦς, (monogenous) sticks out to me in this verse. ESV translates it "only Son", but it also means "only born", "only begotten", "one of a kind" - mono genus, "unique".
http://biblehub.com/greek/3439.htm

Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. KJV

A wonderful Verse, I have always loved it. Although, witnessing to the JW's and LDS's that verse is a battle ground in that they believe Jesus was not God, but a created being through some kind of unique birth.