Bible Study The Gospel of John, Greek discussion

[By Grace]

the person im asking isn't a Christian but an orthodox jew, she is also was raised in the temple and also is fluent in her tounge. asking them about that is best way I can see to go about.

The ONLY thing I am attempting to say to you, Jason is to know that there are the similar differences from modern Hebrew and in Biblical Hebrew as there with every other language. Learning one, such as via Rosetta Stone will help you in modern Hebrew, but not in learning Biblical Hebrew

 

[TimothyW]

the person im asking isn't a Christian but an orthodox jew, she is also was raised in the temple and also is fluent in her tounge. asking them about that is best way I can see to go about.

This discussion is about the Gospel of John, which was not written in Hebrew, but in Greek.

 

[jasoncran]

This discussion is about the Gospel of John, which was not written in Hebrew, but in Greek.

the tanach wasn't written in greek, nor was the audience fully greek either, the point you fail to get is that the name of genesis in Hebrew is bersherit, its combonation of barah and reyesherith. its means from nothing in the beginning god created. I remembered that is what the Jews do.

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/me...The-Personal-Parshah-Mikeitz-and-Chanukah.htm


mikeitz is the first word of that chapter of 41, and yet listen for the whole thing and the vision. mikeitz simply means at the end, they take that run with and go into such depth. the jew would hear and read what john said and think about Genesis 1:1-6:8. they do that with the entire torah. how long that is Idk but its likely they have done that since Christ's time. its not an original division in texts as not all tanach has that,mine doesn't but the others I have read online do. but I do know the name of genesis is what I said it and that is, but it was condensed from this SEFER MAASEH BERESHIT( THE BOOK OF CREATION) BUT THE greek is merely origin. I can see why they choose that but if we understand the first book of the torah it changes why one looks at the greek.

that is what the jews would then see and understand and then connect to the YHWH and then to the Lord and then say yes it was jesus all along then. the WORD in jewish connonation is the Meribah I, this is in the targum and it goes back to genesis one, and god said.. so when john did this he also used the greek logos.

 

[By Grace]

Blame Mondar, not me

chessman, I am not sure what you are referring to here. In the LXX there is Hebrew to greek translation, but I know nothing about Greek to Hebrew translations. Messianic Christians might have something like that. I am guessing that you are asking if Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 have the same wording to start their books. I do not have the LXX in front of me, but I would guess the LXX has the same thing in Genesis 1:1 as the modern text has in John 1:1. However, I would not take this to mean that John is quoting Moses or that they are speaking of the same "beginning." Would that not mean that God, himself, is not eternal? Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of the material universe, in John 1 :1 it actually speaks of the eternity of the Godhead. Kind of like "in the beginning... before there was anything there was God."

Then blame Jason

the first word in genesis is barah.

Now that that is settled, with apologies, and some yuks,

 

[jasoncran]

ok. well if one is going to take that then at least consider the Hebrews that wrote the bible that all of the disciples were Hebrews and had to connect the greek to the Hebrew. john uses the prnicipal of first mention in all his books. so if you want to ignore that's fine but don't tell me that the tanach was in greek originally and all the jews used the lxx.theres is reason why john did what he did.

 

[TimothyW]

the tanach wasn't written in greek, nor was the audience fully greek either, the point you fail to get is that...

This thread is not about the Tanach. It is about the Gospel of John, which was written in Greek. These are not the droids you are looking for. Move along.

John 1:6
Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάνης·

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. ESV

 

[chessman]

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. ESV

1. I notice the striking difference in how John The Baptist (JTB) is introduced here in contrast to how The Word was just introduced. JTB was "sent from God", whereas The Word was God, from the beginning. Even though JTB carried God's message, JTB was not God nor "a god" nor with God from the beginning.

2. I understand verse 6 to be the first reoccurence in John's gospel after verse 1 (of many places) where the Greek word for God does not have a definite article in front of it. The JW's NWT inserts "a god" in verse 1 claiming some translation rule that allows this. However, they are not consistent with their insertions using this rule. If they were consistent, verse 6 would translate "There was a man sent from a God, whose name was John".

Right?

 

[TimothyW]

ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ doesn't have a definite article. If the translators of the NWT were correct and consistent in there claim that no article must be translated as having the indirect article, then this verse should have been translated "There was a man sent from a god, whose name was John". No translation, not even the NWT translates it that way. The "no article rule" is just an excuse to justify a doctrine, in my opinion. This verse shows proof of that. Here is the verse in the NWT 2013 version: "There came a man who was sent as a representative of God; his name was John." Yikes. Remember that what they are translating is "Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάνης", "There was a man, sent from God, the name of him was John".

 

[By Grace]

ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ doesn't have a definite article. If the translators of the NWT were correct and consistent in there claim that no article must be translated as having the indirect article, then this verse should have been translated "There was a man sent from a god, whose name was John". No translation, not even the NWT translates it that way. The "no article rule" is just an excuse to justify a doctrine, in my opinion. This verse shows proof of that. Here is the verse in the NWT 2013 version: "There came a man who was sent as a representative of God; his name was John." Yikes. Remember that what they are translating is "Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάνης", "There was a man, sent from God, the name of him was John".

Here is that "no article rule" expressed two ways.:
The first is old, and the second is modern.

"The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'"​

(A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
===================================================================================================
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp's rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.

In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai (thus, article-substantive-kai-substantive), when both substantives are

(1) singular (both grammatically and semantically),
(2) personal,
(3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent​

Daniel B. Wallace, The Article with Multiple Substantives Connected by kai in the New Testament: Semantics and Significance (Ph.D. diss., Dallas Theological Seminary), 134-35.

If you remember your 6th grade Language Arts and Grammar course, you were introduced to something called a "predicate nominative" Essentially they are repetitions of the subject, and often follow a foorm of the verb "be", also called a stative verb (state of being is expressed). John Wesley could say, "Charles is my brother" as equally as he could say, "My brother is Charles". In the hearer's mind, then there is no difference in fact or inference that "brother" and "Charles" refers to the same person twice.

To go back to Wallace, the definition of a substantive is any group of words such as a phrase, or individual nouns, pronouns, adjectives, participles or infinitives that FUNCTION as a noun. For example, using the verb hear we can have:
a hearer (noun)
hearers (pronoun)
hearing [ones] ( participle)

Another way to put it is that you are spot on in your analysis, ans in your assumption that the JWs twist the Greek to further their heresy; it can not be substantiated in either
Greek, or in English, as I have explained it.

 

[TimothyW]

John 1:7
οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι’ αὐτοῦ.
He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

I think the word μαρτυρίαν is interesting, we get the English word "Martyr" from this, but it means "a witness" or the verb form is "to witness".

 

[Chopper]

You guys have had a very good thread going there, I congratulate your effort not to turn it into a debate. Please keep that up.

 

[By Grace]

John 1:7
οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι’ αὐτοῦ.
He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

I think the word μαρτυρίαν is interesting, we get the English word "Martyr" from this, but it means "a witness" or the verb form is "to witness".

So what is tour point?

In the NT the term μαρτυρίαν is used on 19 times IN THESE VERSES

Mark 14:55 Οἱ δὲ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ ὅλον τὸ συνέδριον ἐζήτουν κατὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ μαρτυρίαν εἰς τὸ θανατῶσαι αὐτόν, καὶ οὐχ ηὕρισκον·
John 1:7 οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι’ αὐτοῦ.
John 3:11 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ὃ οἴδαμεν λαλοῦμεν καὶ ὃ ἑωράκαμεν μαρτυροῦμεν, καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἡμῶν οὐ λαμβάνετε.
John 3:32 ὃ ἑώρακεν καὶ ἤκουσεν τοῦτο μαρτυρεῖ, καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν αὐτοῦ οὐδεὶς λαμβάνει.
John 3:33 ὁ λαβὼν αὐτοῦ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἐσφράγισεν ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἀληθής ἐστιν.
John 5:34 ἐγὼ δὲ οὐ παρὰ ἀνθρώπου τὴν μαρτυρίαν λαμβάνω, ἀλλὰ ταῦτα λέγω ἵνα ὑμεῖς σωθῆτε.
John 5:36 Ἐγὼ δὲ ἔχω τὴν μαρτυρίαν μείζω τοῦ Ἰωάννου· τὰ γὰρ ἔργα ἃ δέδωκέν μοι ὁ πατὴρ ἵνα τελειώσω αὐτά, αὐτὰ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ποιῶ μαρτυρεῖ περὶ ἐμοῦ ὅτι ὁ πατήρ με ἀπέσταλκεν.
Acts 22:18 καὶ ἰδεῖν αὐτὸν λέγοντά μοι· σπεῦσον καὶ ἔξελθε ἐν τάχει ἐξ Ἰερουσαλήμ, διότι οὐ παραδέξονταί σου μαρτυρίαν περὶ ἐμοῦ.
1 Tim 3:7 δεῖ δὲ καὶ μαρτυρίαν καλὴν ἔχειν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔξωθεν, ἵνα μὴ εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν ἐμπέσῃ καὶ παγίδα τοῦ διαβόλου.
1 John 5:9 εἰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαμβάνομεν, ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ θεοῦ μείζων ἐστίν· ὅτι αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ θεοῦ ὅτι μεμαρτύρηκεν περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ.
1 John 5:10 (2) ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ ἔχει τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, ὁ μὴ πιστεύων τῷ θεῷ ψεύστην πεποίηκεν αὐτόν, ὅτι οὐ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἣν μεμαρτύρηκεν ὁ θεὸς περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ.
Rev 1:2 ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ὅσα εἶδεν.
Rev 1:9 Ἐγὼ Ἰωάννης, ὁ ἀδελφὸς ὑμῶν καὶ συγκοινωνὸς ἐν τῇ θλίψει καὶ βασιλείᾳ καὶ ὑπομονῇ ἐν Ἰησοῦ, ἐγενόμην ἐν τῇ νήσῳ τῇ καλουμένῃ Πάτμῳ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ.
Rev 6:9 Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν πέμπτην σφραγῖδα, εἶδον ὑποκάτω τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν ἐσφαγμένων διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἣν εἶχον.
Rev 11:7 Καὶ ὅταν τελέσωσιν τὴν μαρτυρίαν αὐτῶν, τὸ θηρίον τὸ ἀναβαῖνον ἐκ τῆς ἀβύσσου ποιήσει μετ’ αὐτῶν πόλεμον καὶ νικήσει αὐτοὺς καὶ ἀποκτενεῖ αὐτούς.
Rev 12:17 καὶ ὠργίσθη ὁ δράκων ἐπὶ τῇ γυναικὶ καὶ ἀπῆλθεν ποιῆσαι πόλεμον μετὰ τῶν λοιπῶν τοῦ σπέρματος αὐτῆς τῶν τηρούντων τὰς ἐντολὰς τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἐχόντων τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ.
Rev 19:10 καὶ ἔπεσα ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ποδῶν αὐτοῦ προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ. καὶ λέγει μοι· ὅρα μή· σύνδουλός σού εἰμι καὶ τῶν ἀδελφῶν σου τῶν ἐχόντων τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ· τῷ θεῷ προσκύνησον. ἡ γὰρ μαρτυρία Ἰησοῦ ἐστιν τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς προφητείας.
Rev 20:4 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ’ αὐτοὺς καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς, καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν. καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.

 

[chessman]

I think the word μαρτυρίαν is interesting, we get the English word "Martyr" from this, but it means "a witness" or the verb form is "to witness".

Yes, that's interesting. I'm wondering: it meant "witness" and with the sense of a legal testimony in the Greek. As in a witness to a crime who gives testimony in a trail. Yet it's where we get our word "martyr" from. Doesn't seem to be directly the same meaning (martyr versus witness). So later after JTB's death/murder John speaks of JTB again in chapter 5. In verse 5:33 JTB is called out as functioning as a "witness" after being martyred.

So, do you think our English word for martyr, having roots from the Greek for "witness" has anything to do with JTB being a witness AND a martyr?

If so, that's interesting.

 

[TimothyW]

I just thought it was interesting. My point was to keep the discussion going. I like your post, BG. It is good to look at a word closely and see all the places it is used.

 

[TimothyW]

John 1:8
οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλ’ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.

He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

 

[TimothyW]

Yes, that's interesting. I'm wondering: it meant "witness" and with the sense of a legal testimony in the Greek. As in a witness to a crime who gives testimony in a trail. Yet it's where we get our word "martyr" from. Doesn't seem to be directly the same meaning (martyr versus witness). So later after JTB's death/murder John speaks of JTB again in chapter 5. In verse 5:33 JTB is called out as functioning as a "witness" after being martyred.

So, do you think our English word for martyr, having roots from the Greek for "witness" has anything to do with JTB being a witness AND a martyr?

Sorry, I don't really know. I suspect that "Martyr" came to have the association as a person who was killed for their beliefs because so many witnesses were killed.

 

[By Grace]

Sorry, I don't really know. I suspect that "Martyr" came to have the association as a person who was killed for their beliefs because so many witnesses were killed.

While the word "witness" is not mentioned in this passage from Luke, it is vital to understand its importance in terms of the usage and the awesome duty that a witness has.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.​

Now look again at this passage from Luke 2:

Luke 2: 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover
​

Since the idea of "witness" is so strong in the Bible, and since that this is Christmas eve the designated (but not actual) day to celebrate the birth of Jesus, I thought that this would a warm and fuzzy post, which in turn raises up the name of Jesus.

May your Christmas be warm with the glow of Jesus. Here in Upstate New York, it is snowing.

 

[TimothyW]

Thanks for bringing tidings of great joy which shall be for all the people.

Glory to God in the highest.
Peace Bro!

 

[turnorburn]

Wouldn't matter if they were educated or not God has never used education as a prerequisite most if not "all" of the Old Testament was in the Hebrew language..

tob

imo

 

[Asyncritus]

The discussion about JTB fails to take into account a very simple point, which illuminates the doctrines of v1.

There was a man sent from God.

The preposition used for from is para, which almost invariably means 'from alongside', or 'by the side of'.

wiki:
originating from the Greek preposition para that means: "beside, next to, near, from,"

Given that this is correct, and I think it is, then you are faced with the problem of JTB also being by the side of God - if, you insist on taking it literally.

How can this be?

Perhaps, and it is only perhaps, a reference to :

And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

That is alongside the altar, from whence the message came.