The Great Tribulation

[dwb001]

More doom and gloom eschatology.

The glorious Bridegroom coming in power and majesty.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Great tribulation happened in 70 ad...now we preach the gospel of the Kingdom worldwide.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you believe these verses are talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD or are they yet future events to watch for?

As I see it in Matthew 24:1-2 when the disciples were showing all the buildings of the Temple Jesus then made the statement "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Then the disciples asked Jesus three questions, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Look what Jesus told them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

Jesus first told them about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that indeed happened in 70AD, but continues to explain those things which also must come first before the great and terrible day of His coming on the last day.

 

[Edward]

I'm saying that it's possible, even likely, that everyone's soul goes to Hades. Hence why Rev 20 says what it does about the dead in Hades--"if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life." If the parable/story of Lazarus and rich man actually tells us truth about Hades, then there is a place for the righteous dead and a place for the unrighteous dead.

That was correct before Jesus came but now we are new covenant and the rules changed to, Absent from the body, present with the Lord...

So The place of Abrahams Bosom is not used for the dead in Christ now. The price has been paid for your redemption so Abrahams Bosom isn't there anymore. Abraham and all the other believers went to be with the Lord now. Besides, the amount of condemned people has been growing so they prolly could use the space after a slight remodel.

The saints are with the Lord now in Heaven. That is how the Lord will be able to bring the saints back with Him at His 2nd coming. Consequently, there can't be any souls in Hades right now. Believing souls that is.

 

[for_his_glory]

That isn’t what I said. Hades is the place for departed souls, referred to as the grave throughout Scripture.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.​

 

[Edward]

I don't think Christ has called his assembly out of hades yet.
I believe that is still future.I believe it takes place on the last day.

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.../

None of Christs are in Hades according to this. He has "all" His saints with Him when He comes. It all had to do with the price of redemtion had not been paid yet in old testament times, but after Jesus came and died the price was paid so it was ok to let the saints into Heaven. The new MO is, Absent from the body, means present with the Lord.

 

[Free]

That was correct before Jesus came but now we are new covenant and the rules changed to, Absent from the body, present with the Lord...

So The place of Abrahams Bosom is not used for the dead in Christ now. The price has been paid for your redemption so Abrahams Bosom isn't there anymore. Abraham and all the other believers went to be with the Lord now. Besides, the amount of condemned people has been growing so they prolly could use the space after a slight remodel.

The saints are with the Lord now in Heaven. That is how the Lord will be able to bring the saints back with Him at His 2nd coming. Consequently, there can't be any souls in Hades right now. Believing souls that is.

But who is to say that the Lord isn't also present in Hades?

 

[for_his_glory]

More doom and gloom eschatology.

Not for those who are Christ own who will endure all things unto the end as then they will be saved, Matthew 24:13.

What would be the purpose of the seven trumpets sounding and the coming of the son of perdition who will force all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death if we are taken out of here before all this happens. There are no second chances after Jesus returns on the last day. This will be a time of standing in the greatest faith we have ever known and a final chance to spread the gospel message.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Edward]

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

There is two resurrections? One unto life and one unto death. (the condemned and the saved). When the Lord returns, the dead bodies will be raised and reunited with our soul & spirit. As Paul says, the mortal has to put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?.../

Those dead in Christ will be raised, reunited and transformed all in the twinkling of an eye. But if Christ brings all the saints with Him, then the saints souls sure wasn't in Hades! The price has been paid in full by Jesus already! That is very significant that you should take note of.

There's only bad souls in Hades right now.

 

[miamited]

Hi Edward

Absent from the body, present with the Lord...

Quick question: When are we 'absent' from the body? Is at immediately at death, or will it be when we are awakened for the great and glorious resurrection? When do we 'leave this tent'? Another of Paul's references to our earthly bodies. Now, I know that popular television and some theologians do believe that the moment we draw our last breath, much like in the popular movie 'Ghost', either the demons or the angels reach down to get you at that moment.

However, I think that may be open to discussion. I just say this, because I've always believed that the dead in Christ were those resurrected from the grave to rise with him in the clouds. So, it is possible that we sleep, just as Paul also mentioned a couple of times in the Scriptures, and we are awakened and leave our bodies when Gabriel sounds the call. That is how it was explained to the old covenant patriarchs.

I do understand that there's a lot of talk of that time frame, after one's physical death here on the earth, but I'm not sure it's clear 'when' the Scriptures are referring to as our 'being absent from the body'.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Free]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.​

Strong's is based on the KJV, so it just begs the question for it to say that Hades is hell. Hades is Hades, hell is hell. If Hades is also hell, then hell isn't the final place for the unrighteous, since, Hades gets thrown into the lake of fire.

Jesus consistently used gehenna to refer to the place of punishment and final destination of unbelievers. In Revelation, we see that the final destination of unbelievers is the lake of fire. It is not a coincidence since, from what I've read, gehenna was where refuse and the bodies of criminals were burned; there was essentially a perpetual fire there. So Jesus's use of gehenna as an analogy for the lake of fire is quite fitting.

 

[Edward]

But who is to say that the Lord isn't also present in Hades?

Touche'!!

The Lord absolutely is in Hades right now or else He wouldn't be omnipresent , right? It is written too! david said if I make my bed in Hades you are there!

Psalm 139
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.../

so technically I suppose you are right, but even so, the souls there with Jesus are not confined or being held like the others who had been before the price was paid. So it's prolly actually irrevelant.

 

[Edward]

Quick question: When are we 'absent' from the body? Is at immediately at death, or will it be when we are awakened for the great and glorious resurrection? When do we 'leave this tent'? Another of Paul's references to our earthly bodies. Now, I know that popular television and some theologians do believe that the moment we draw our last breath, much like in the popular movie 'Ghost', either the demons or the angels reach down to get you at that moment.

Movies? Wouldn't near death experiences (NDE's) be better? People who have died and came back. All of them say it is plesurable to leave your body when you die, and when they came back into the body it was like putting on a big painful burden. I have never died or left my body for any reason that I know of, lol. But they it sounds from listening to many many NDE's is that it happens that they become absent from their body and many of them find themselves standing beside their dead body or floating above it.

I hear it happens two ways, one way there is someone there to meet them, an Angel, dead family members, Jesus, someone. Other times they say there is a tunnel and they have to walk into it but one guy said he got sucked into it.

I've heard where they are simply suddenly back in their body and others have described the return trip from Heaven (or hell!) and then laying down into their body again. Some were dead for one minute others for 45 minutes and still others 4 or 5 hours

 

[for_his_glory]

Strong's is based on the KJV, so it just begs the question for it to say that Hades is hell. Hades is Hades, hell is hell. If Hades is also hell, then hell isn't the final place for the unrighteous, since, Hades gets thrown into the lake of fire.

Jesus consistently used gehenna to refer to the place of punishment and final destination of unbelievers. In Revelation, we see that the final destination of unbelievers is the lake of fire. It is not a coincidence since, from what I've read, gehenna was where refuse and the bodies of criminals were burned; there was essentially a perpetual fire there. So Jesus's use of gehenna as an analogy for the lake of fire is quite fitting.

All of this has been debated for years just like that of the KJV whether it is a good translation or does it contain errors.

All I can say is that everyone who has ever died are lying in their graves waiting until the last day when Jesus returns and then will be called in one resurrection to either life eternal with the Father or eternal damnation being cast into the lake of fire, John 5:28-29, as no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than Christ, John 3:13.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Edward]

but I'm not sure it's clear 'when' the Scriptures are referring to as our 'being absent from the body'.

I took that to mean, when you die. When you die your spirit leaves your body, no more breath. It is then that you are, absent from your body.

The body is dead, put it in the grave. But your body is not you. You are absent from your body so you don't go to the grave. Just your old rusty Nova body.

 

[Edward]

All of this has been debated for years just like that of the KJV whether it is a good translation or does it contain errors.

All I can say is that everyone who has ever died are lying in their graves waiting until the last day when Jesus returns and then will be called in one resurrection to either life eternal with the Father or eternal damnation being cast into the lake of fire, John 5:28-29, as no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than Christ, John 3:13.

So you are going to stand on your last 25 years of study and stand pat?

That's ok. You can do that. But it does raise a question...

What will happen when the Lord pours out His Spirit on all flesh?

Acts 2:17
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:.../

So how should we approach this when it happens? Will no new revelation be given to the world? They will all just stand and quote scripture? Are you saying that Knowledge will not be increased? About God?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.../

None of Christs are in Hades according to this. He has "all" His saints with Him when He comes. It all had to do with the price of redemtion had not been paid yet in old testament times, but after Jesus came and died the price was paid so it was ok to let the saints into Heaven. The new MO is, Absent from the body, means present with the Lord.

According to Christ,the saints are not with him when he comes.The angels are.

Mathew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

According to this ,the saints rise when Christ comes.They are not coming with him.

1 these 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

There is two resurrections? One unto life and one unto death. (the condemned and the saved). When the Lord returns, the dead bodies will be raised and reunited with our soul & spirit. As Paul says, the mortal has to put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?.../

Those dead in Christ will be raised, reunited and transformed all in the twinkling of an eye. But if Christ brings all the saints with Him, then the saints souls sure wasn't in Hades! The price has been paid in full by Jesus already! That is very significant that you should take note of.

There's only bad souls in Hades right now.

So you believe you are a spirit ,like God?

Personally I don't think of myself as a spirit.Im like Adam,a man.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you believe these verses are talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD or are they yet future events to watch for?

Yes 70 ad. the reference to the sun, moon , and stars signifies a change of government or administration, in scripture. It happened here in Jerusalem. Like here; Babylon being destroyed
isa.13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


also edom'ISA.34:
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
joel2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

As I see it in Matthew 24:1-2 when the disciples were showing all the buildings of the Temple Jesus then made the statement "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Then the disciples asked Jesus three questions, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Look what Jesus told them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

Jesus first told them about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that indeed happened in 70AD, but continues to explain those things which also must come first before the great and terrible day of His coming on the last day.

I do not have to recreate what already took place,,, Peter said in Acts2:16 this is that which was spoken of by JOEL...This is that

 

[Shilohsfoal]

But who is to say that the Lord isn't also present in Hades?

Christ was not left in Hades .He rose the third day.Christ did not stay there long enough to start rotting as the rest of humans do.

Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Now,the question is,do you understand why Christ rose the third day and what that has to do with his church(assembly).

Hosea 6:2-3
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The glorious Bridegroom coming in power and majesty.

The saints who are described as being martyred in the book of Revelation suffered and asked God when their blood would be revenged. Jesus described the times as being of great “tribulation” not great joy and the details are pretty horrible. Not even he thought it would anything but horrible, gloom and doom.

But if ones theology is divorced from reality then one can tell oneself it’s a time of great joy……until suffering starts. When Jesus warned about enduring, that word means enduring suffering, not rejoicing.

Jesus will come in the same manner as they saw him go.