The Holy Spirit Does Not Guide You Into All Truth!

[MarkT]

I think PZ has a good point considering this part:
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
That sounds directed at the apostles specifically not all believers generally.

It doesn't matter who he said it to, Jesus' word is spirit, and everyone who is born of the Spirit receives this saying.

 

[Justicewolf]

if he guided the disciples to all truth that they need to know. what makes anyone so sure he does not guide us to all truth? if that chapter is just for the disciples .throw the entire Bible away because none of i was written to us either., neither was john 3:3

And Romans 5:5

John 16:7-15
Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
and, 1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

 

[ezra]

Strawmen and Misdirection fallacies have no refuting power

maybe you would like to go through each post and point these strawmen and Misdirection fallacies to say

It's written about the Disciples. It records an event. It's not a passage written to us as prescriptive

Romans 15:4 For whatever things were written formerly, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. i understand the bases of the post,,not my 1st rodeo even though i am only a H.S graduate . nothing in the Bible is written to us personally . but it is to be used for our benefit ....all scripture . ..back to making scare crows straw is running low

 

[MarkT]

I'm not discounting anything. I"m just being accurate in the way I look at these passages. There are things we will never fully know. At least not on this side of death. We can't know all things and see through a glass dimly at the same time. Basically that makes the Bible say "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all Truth except for the Truth He won't guide you into." That is a contradiction. Since we see only in part (1 Corinthians 13:12 ) it would be impossible to at the same time be led into all truth. This seems to be an easy concept to understand. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and does guide believers into Truth and understandings. This is a fact. But no matter how one slices it, we see only in part. That means we don't and won't see all Truth. Where we know Truth, that's the work of the Spirit.

Do you know what a guide is? The Spirit guides us into all the truth. So those who possess the Spirit of truth are always being guided into the truth. They are not going to follow some stranger who says the Holy Spirit does not guide you into all truth.

 

[Free]

I know. He wasn't speaking to a crowd this time. But Christians tend to believe what he said about the Spirit. He will guide you into all the truth. If you don't think you means you, then you're not really hearing his voice, are you? Hearing his voice is the important thing. 'My sheep hear my voice' His teaching is as true today as when he said it.

The issue is, John 16:13 is for the disciples to whom Jesus directly spoke. Many Christians, including many on these forums, use that verse to say that is all they need to come to the truth of Scripture--pray and read and the truth will be revealed. There is a general sense in which the Holy Spirit guides us to the necessary truth but that comes through a variety of ways.

 

[MarkT]

The issue is, John 16:13 is for the disciples to whom Jesus directly spoke. Many Christians, including many on these forums, use that verse to say that is all they need to come to the truth of Scripture--pray and read and the truth will be revealed. There is a general sense in which the Holy Spirit guides us to the necessary truth but that comes through a variety of ways.

I don't know what many believe, but it's my understanding, if you can hear his voice, then he is indeed speaking to you.

 

[Free]

I don't know what many believe, but it's my understanding, if you can hear his voice, then he is indeed speaking to you.

That has nothing to do with the verse in question.

 

[ezra]

The issue is, John 16:13 is for the disciples to whom Jesus directly spoke. Many Christians, including many on these forums, use that verse to say that is all they need to come to the truth of Scripture--pray and read and the truth will be revealed. There is a general sense in which the Holy Spirit guides us to the necessary truth but that comes through a variety of ways.

i disagree on the disciples only. the same spirit Jesus was teaching/leaving is for us today.. there is not 2 different spirits he shows all truth nothing held back..once again this truth is not a all knowing .but a leading teaching changed from Glory to Glory 2 Corinthians 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiledfaces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes fromthe Lord, who is the Spirit.


King James Bible
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.. truth as we need it

There is a general sense in which the Holy Spirit guides us to the necessary truth but that comes through a variety of ways.

no disagreement on that

 

[Free]

i disagree on the disciples only. the same spirit Jesus was teaching/leaving is for us today.. there is not 2 different spirits he shows all truth nothing held back..once again this truth is not a all knowing

I have previously given the context and how that shows it is something for the disciples only. You cannot ignore context. Any idea of two different spirits has nothing to do with it.

.but a leading teaching changed from Glory to Glory 2 Corinthians 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiledfaces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes fromthe Lord, who is the Spirit.


King James Bible
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.. truth as we need it no disagreement on that

I don't see what any of this has to do with what I have posted.

 

[ezra]

I have previously given the context and how that shows it is something for the disciples only. You cannot ignore context. Any idea of two different spirits has nothing to do with it.


I don't see what any of this has to do with what I have posted.

well of course .your context tells us 2 different spirits then . sorry to say but we have the same spirit . looks like the majority see it different ,,but then again were all wrong ..you show me scripture that says the spirit the disciples had is different from what we have

 

[Free]

well of course .your context tells us 2 different spirits then . sorry to say but we have the same spirit . looks like the majority see it different ,,but then again were all wrong ..you show me scripture that says the spirit the disciples had is different from what we have

I have said no such thing nor can it be implied from what I have given. Perhaps you need to reread what I have written and then reread the passage.

 

[ezra]

not at all your implying since it is written to the disciples.it does not pertain to us

 

[Free]

not at all your implying since it is written to the disciples.it does not pertain to us

Which has nothing to do with two spirits. Do we all have the same gifts? No. Does that mean there are multiple spirits? Of course not. Can the Holy Spirit say different things to different people? Of course. Does that mean there is more than one spirit? Of course not.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Great thread Papa Zoom, I thought you did an excellent job in making your points, points that
clearly stand unrefuted in this thread (Strawmen and Misdirection fallacies have no refuting power).
I enjoyed reading along in the thread. God bless.

Thanks JAG. I appreciate the feedback. The title was meant to be provocative but the substance of the argument is meant to get people to think about how we approach our understanding of the Bible. There have been some pretty good exchanges in here and those that carefully considered all my points I think generally agree with the thesis of the thread.

 

[Papa Zoom]

It doesn't matter who he said it to, Jesus' word is spirit, and everyone who is born of the Spirit receives this saying.

Not in the same way. Not written to us, but yes for us. The bigger question is what does it mean in practical terms and how do I apply the truth to our lives?

 

[Papa Zoom]

if he guided the disciples to all truth that they need to know. what makes anyone so sure he does not guide us to all truth? if that chapter is just for the disciples .throw the entire Bible away because none of i was written to us either., neither was john 3:3

because no one on the planet in this history of the Church has ever known all truth. The Church is divided. Christians in small groups don't agree on biblical passages. You can't even have a decent theology discussion on this forum without someone getting their undies all in a knot. Either the Spirit is inept or we are the problem. I say we are the problem. We can't even decide on the mode of baptism let alone it's importance in the church!

The Holy Spirit is our guide to Truth but we will never know all truth this side of heaven. We see through a glass dimly. So when we think the HS has taught us some truth we ought to be very careful and cautious to be right.

If you and I disagree on the theological point, and I say to you that the Spirit guided me to my conclusion, are you prepared to throw away your belief and adopt mine? Why not since I was guided by the Spirit?

 

[Papa Zoom]

And Romans 5:5

John 16:7-15
Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
and, 1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

And as I've stated over and over in this thread I don't dispute the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of believers in Jesus.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Do you know what a guide is? The Spirit guides us into all the truth. So those who possess the Spirit of truth are always being guided into the truth. They are not going to follow some stranger who says the Holy Spirit does not guide you into all truth.

Of course I know what a guide is.

Not all truth Mark but yes, if you posses the Truth you were guided to that by the HS. You will not always find understanding (truth) because something we see through a glass dimly. Other things we attribute to the Spirit's working in our lives but it's just our bias or something else at work.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The issue is, John 16:13 is for the disciples to whom Jesus directly spoke. Many Christians, including many on these forums, use that verse to say that is all they need to come to the truth of Scripture--pray and read and the truth will be revealed. There is a general sense in which the Holy Spirit guides us to the necessary truth but that comes through a variety of ways.

Exactly and we see this sort of problem in the Church all the time. It probably accounts for the many divisions among us.

 

[Papa Zoom]

well of course .your context tells us 2 different spirits then . sorry to say but we have the same spirit . looks like the majority see it different ,,but then again were all wrong ..you show me scripture that says the spirit the disciples had is different from what we have

Why isn't it the case that my thesis is 100% right since I'm being led by the Spirit? ( I am after all a Spirit filled Christian and have given this much thought and study. Perhaps ya all should just adopt my view?)

I'm joking of course. But the fact that I am stating one thing that differs with many of you ought to tell you that someone's not getting it right so apparently the Spirit is slipping up.