The Holy Spirit Does Not Guide You Into All Truth!

[civilwarbuff]

i love posting in forums especially on biblical subjects. it cause me to bring scriptures to remembrance and do a search of what others has to say. i will be the first to say at times i post with flare and it can be aggressive but not personnel. i use to post in a forum on a no holds barred. most of the time i was the only one using scripture and i learned to stand my ground... having said all that i see beliefs becoming very personnel . happy thanksgiving all

In the theology threads it is best to back up with scripture; now others may not agree with a persons view of what that scripture say but at least that is the foundational element for everyone to work from......without scripture it is just opinion....

 

[Papa Zoom]

You seem to be saying the majority do not possess the Spirit. I agree.

I'm not saying that at all

Then you seem to be moving away from the Bible and towards the scholars. How many years of study will open the eyes of the blind? Study will not bring them sight. Yet it seems right to the majority. People will follow the blind.

I don't know what you are saying here. I am not moving away from the Bible and towards scholars. But when I studied in Bible college, we read books written by theologians. Iron sharpens Iron. When I study with my friends, we share insights and discuss difficult passages. It's always been this way. Study WILL bring sight if guided by the Spirit. Ask the Bereans.

And it provides us with even more evidence of the power of God, that he reveals himself to whom ever he wills.

I agree but I don't think God withholds himself from a true seeker.

Jesus said the Spirit of truth will guide us into all the truth. re. the Scriptures, what they say. re. Him, who he is and what he said. re. sin and righteousness and judgment and the things that are to come.

This is not a promise said in general to all. It was said to a specific group of people who were embarking on a specific mission with specific instructions. Too many people misuse this verse. Do you know all things? No. So the Spirit failed you then? No. Because understanding this verse in light of its context is missing in the theology of many. When the Spirit leads, truth follows. When we seek truth, we may or may not find it. Indigestion is not the Spirit working in us. Neither is emotion. Thinking we understand a passage because we've studied it is a poor substitute for the real thing. But sadly this is what we get from many who claimed that the "Spirit led me to this."

You say the Spirit doesn't lead us into all the truth. So we have what Jesus said and what you say. Who is right? It makes no sense to argue with Jesus.

This is a very weak argument. Do you know all truth? No. Do you know anyone that does? No. So I am right. And Jesus never said this to you. He said it to his Disciples in a specific situation they would be facing. They were sent on a mission and were told not to worry about what they would say. The Spirit would help with that.

This is not to say the Spirit doesn't lead us to knowing Truth. But ONLY if it's the Spirit that's leading. Again, do you know all truth? No. Why not?

 

[Papa Zoom]

I read and understood you perfectly. I quoted what you stated in one post directed toward me, and I replied exactly to your remarks.It is not necessary to read 9 pages of posts from you in order to comprehend your cogent thoughts in one post is it? You're capable of saying what you mean to say once. Especially when you quote me and my one post to do so.

I doubt you fully understand what my full position

I really wish you'd not say you wish people would read what you've written as a means of repealing what someone says in response, and that you disagree with. I don't need you to agree with my thoughts. However, my thoughts are on topic and precisely addressing your quoted observations to me. And they're in scripture.

The Holy Spirit does speak all truth.

I've said this many times in this thread.

The adverse of that is the false claim the Holy Spirit does not speak all truth.

And I have never said this.

We as Christians carry that spirit within us and as Jesus promised, that comforter, and on a personal note it is certainly that in my life, will guide us so that we are not without Jesus and his teachings. This was said to the Disciples, who became the Apostles who delivered the great commission Jesus intended. And it did not cease to be true after they had all passed on. The promise of that comforter was Jesus teaching to the Disciples that it be carried forth as part of the salvation message to the world.

I've never said otherwise. The above shows you really don't understand my position fully. I've never stated the Holy Spirit doesn't lead us into Truth.

Now, whether or not we are able to discern the Holy Spirits guidance is our responsibility. Being in this noisy world of distractions and those things that occupy our attentions and seek often enough to lead us from the Word.

ok

However, if we seek sincerely the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, we shall find it. It is a growing into relationship with God.
You are able to disagree. However, it does nothing to remove scriptures from the page, nor the truth of God's spirit from the heart of one who knows relationship. And the Holy Spirit's realness in her life.

I've never said that HS isn't real in our lives.

This threads title, the other that you wrote saying, the Bible doesn't say anything.

And I'm 100% right in how I've explained what I meant.

Maybe the conflict that you seem to see in what you imagine as peoples comprehension of your meaning would be avoided if you didn't title discussion invitations with an opening title introduction that is adverse to what we know is true in God's word.

I like the titles.

Just a peace filled observation offered with all respect and no intention of offense. I'm new. And I do admit reading those thread titles in a Christian forum caused me first to look to the profile block of the author, you, to see what the faith line said before I read further.

Have a blessed and peace filled Thanksgiving.

 

[MarkT]

I'm not saying that at all


I don't know what you are saying here. I am not moving away from the Bible and towards scholars. But when I studied in Bible college, we read books written by theologians. Iron sharpens Iron. When I study with my friends, we share insights and discuss difficult passages. It's always been this way. Study WILL bring sight if guided by the Spirit. Ask the Bereans.

I agree but I don't think God withholds himself from a true seeker.



This is not a promise said in general to all. It was said to a specific group of people who were embarking on a specific mission with specific instructions. Too many people misuse this verse. Do you know all things? No. So the Spirit failed you then? No. Because understanding this verse in light of its context is missing in the theology of many. When the Spirit leads, truth follows. When we seek truth, we may or may not find it. Indigestion is not the Spirit working in us. Neither is emotion. Thinking we understand a passage because we've studied it is a poor substitute for the real thing. But sadly this is what we get from many who claimed that the "Spirit led me to this."



This is a very weak argument. Do you know all truth? No. Do you know anyone that does? No. So I am right. And Jesus never said this to you. He said it to his Disciples in a specific situation they would be facing. They were sent on a mission and were told not to worry about what they would say. The Spirit would help with that.

This is not to say the Spirit doesn't lead us to knowing Truth. But ONLY if it's the Spirit that's leading. Again, do you know all truth? No. Why not?

You're the one stuck on one word 'all'. Not me. It's one Spirit. It's the same Spirit we receive. It's the same Spirit the apostles received. Did they know all the truth? No. Even Paul said 'we see only dimly now'. But what Jesus said to the twelve he is saying to all who are born again of the Spirit.

There's nothing limiting about the Bible. Where else are you going to find the word of God?

John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

 

[MarkT]

I think you'e confusing truth with knowledge.

Jesus said the Spirit will guide us into all the truth, suggesting he will counsel us in the way in which we should go. Even give us what we should say. That's my understanding.

 

[Free]

Jesus said the Spirit will guide us into all the truth, suggesting he will counsel us in the way in which we should go.

Let's look at the context:

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

Jesus is speaking specifically to his disciples. He first says that there are many things he has to tell them but that they "cannot bear them now." This is what leads Jesus to speak of the Spirit guiding them "into all the truth." And what will that look like? The Spirit of truth will "not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak." What will he tell the disciples? He will tell them of "the things that are to come" and "will take what is mine and declare it to you."

This strongly suggests that the Spirit of truth will guide the disciples into all the truth of those things which the disciples could not then bear. This is most likely what is given in the rest of the NT, in the disciples' writings and teachings, which were inspired by God.

Those verses were spoken to the disciples for a specific reason, namely, to prepare them to accept those other things they were going to be taught and given through the Holy Spirit, things which they were not yet ready for, things which Jesus had not yet told them.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I do believe that the HS (the Spirit of truth - John 16:13) is the guide to truth. All truth. The HS only deals in truth. This isn't to say we can know all truth. We can't. We are limited. But the Holy Spirit has no limits. Not only does the Holy Spirit lead us into Truth:

The Holy Spirit
Comforts us - John 14:16
Teaches us - John 14:26
Seals Us - Ephesians 1:13; 4:30
Distributes spiritual gifts: 1 Cor 12: 7-11
Guides and counsels us - Luke 12:12; 1 Corinthians 2:6–10

What we should do:
Read God's Holy Word. Become familiar with it. Study it.
Read good books by reputable theologians and ponder their ideas.
Pray for understanding.
Meet with other believers and pray and study together. (I meet with a mixed couples Bible study once a week and a men's small group (very small - 4 guys) every other Sunday afternoon and the following Monday morning (6am!) We dig deep.
Search the Scriptures, meditate on them and memorize!
See also:
2 Timothy 3:16
Ephesians 6:17

Test what is believed and desired against Scripture. Remember that the Holy Spirit will never cause anyone to desire anything that is contrary to God's Word. The Holy Spirit seeks unity among believers. We will always have differences in understandings because we see through a glass dimly. Some things we will never know this side of Glory.

Test the fruits of the Spirit in your life to know where you are with regard to His leading: Galatians 5:22

Above all, be humble, testing all things, and proceed in life ONLY from a spirit of love and service. Impossible apart from the Spirit of Truth's leading in the life of a believer.

Ephesians 4:1-6New International Version (NIV)

Unity and Maturity in the Body of Christ
4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[ezra]

Test what is believed and desired against Scripture. Remember that the Holy Spirit will never cause anyone to desire anything that is contrary to God's Word. The Holy Spirit seeks unity among believers. We will always have differences in understandings because we see through a glass dimly. Some things we will never know this side of Glory.

agreed the bible says 1 john 4:1 New American Standard Bible
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. we should test us the thing we feel are of the spirit .. many things out there are not of GOD SAME WORDS CHRIST spoke to his disciples about the spirit of truth holds for us today. the big problem mankind today is the words all truth. the paul wrote Ephesians 4:14.As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
so when it comes to the all truth some things can only be a caution flag of warning for us.. i know a ministry that started up in my home town. the man behind it is very charismatic in nature every thing he has done he always had a following .in the old days he had people doing things for him . in ministry he is like this today old days everybody thought Tim was cool. i fear this today
,but see i can not publicly say this is not of God . even though in my heart and mind knowing what i do and sensing what i feel .. so imo we best be cautious in what we proclaim to be led of the Spirit... i was in church service good preaching spirit was ministering at the close of the service .the pastor was closing out a man spoke up and said bro Bill can i share what God showed me. the pastor replied if it is of God yes you can.. he spoke about moving to the next level was it of God ? i dunno but he stopped attending there like he use to . my writing skills stink my grammar stinks . but i can make my point .
i am doing a study/devotion by john piper called life in the spirit he breaks down what the Holy spirit does in our life .. i dont agree with piper and his doctrine of reformed teaching . this i am reading is good . so let us follow the true spirit of truth . i can understand your point in this post

 

[civilwarbuff]

But what Jesus said to the twelve he is saying to all who are born again of the Spirit.

I think PZ has a good point considering this part:
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
That sounds directed at the apostles specifically not all believers generally.

 

[ezra]

That sounds directed at the apostles specifically not all believers generally.

why would the spirit not teach us all things? the disciples had to learn we have to learn. all things does not everything Christ knows... but we will learn as we go.. that is my only disagreement. might i add some thing we may never know and some things the disciples never learned

 

[Justicewolf]

I doubt you fully understand what my full position...

I think that you believe your audience, readership, isn't capable of understanding you makes it unnecessary to continue to discuss with you further.
Rather than imagine I , and others, don't understand your position, perhaps consider that you don't respect counter points of view.
When someone quotes your remarks and you believe you are fully capable of posting a cogent thought in one post, and that post is then addressed, and you say the person replying doesn't understand your position, when that post is your position, and you say this over and over and over again, the problem isn't the reader of your posts.
The Holy Spirit is what the Bible says it is.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I think that you believe your audience, readership, isn't capable of understanding you makes it unnecessary to continue to discuss with you further.
Rather than imagine I , and others, don't understand your position, perhaps consider that you don't respect counter points of view.
When someone quotes your remarks and you believe you are fully capable of posting a cogent thought in one post, and that post is then addressed, and you say the person replying doesn't understand your position, when that post is your position, and you say this over and over and over again, the problem isn't the reader of your posts.
The Holy Spirit is what the Bible says it is.

Yeah, the personal stuff not so much. I think most have reflected an understanding.

 

[MarkT]

Let's look at the context:

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

Jesus is speaking specifically to his disciples. He first says that there are many things he has to tell them but that they "cannot bear them now." This is what leads Jesus to speak of the Spirit guiding them "into all the truth." And what will that look like? The Spirit of truth will "not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak." What will he tell the disciples? He will tell them of "the things that are to come" and "will take what is mine and declare it to you."

This strongly suggests that the Spirit of truth will guide the disciples into all the truth of those things which the disciples could not then bear. This is most likely what is given in the rest of the NT, in the disciples' writings and teachings, which were inspired by God.

Those verses were spoken to the disciples for a specific reason, namely, to prepare them to accept those other things they were going to be taught and given through the Holy Spirit, things which they were not yet ready for, things which Jesus had not yet told them.

I know. He wasn't speaking to a crowd this time. But Christians tend to believe what he said about the Spirit. He will guide you into all the truth. If you don't think you means you, then you're not really hearing his voice, are you? Hearing his voice is the important thing. 'My sheep hear my voice' His teaching is as true today as when he said it.

 

[ezra]

if he guided the disciples to all truth that they need to know. what makes anyone so sure he does not guide us to all truth? if that chapter is just for the disciples .throw the entire Bible away because none of i was written to us either., neither was john 3:3

 

[Papa Zoom]

if he guided the disciples to all truth that they need to know. what makes anyone so sure he does not guide us to all truth? if that chapter is just for the disciples .throw the entire Bible away because none of i was written to us either., neither was john 3:3

It's written about the Disciples. It records an event. It's not a passage written to us as prescriptive but it's a passage that is descriptive. That doesn't mean that the principle isn't true in general to all believers. My argument is that using that verse as a prescriptive element in Scripture is in error UNLESS one uses the entire council of God to make the case of the Spirit's work in our life. Scripture interprets Scripture is a good hermeneutical principle to follow and that's what I'm aiming at. In no way is the Holy Spirit's power in our lives diminished by my thesis. I'm aiming at the reader of Scripture and how we approach understanding what we read.

 

[ezra]

It's written about the Disciples. It records an event. It's not a passage written to us as prescriptive but it's a passage that is descriptive. That doesn't mean that the principle isn't true in general to all believers. My argument is that using that verse as a prescriptive element in Scripture is in error UNLESS one uses the entire council of God to make the case of the Spirit's work in our life. Scripture interprets Scripture is a good hermeneutical principle to follow and that's what I'm aiming at. In no way is the Holy Spirit's power in our lives diminished by my thesis. I'm aiming at the reader of Scripture and how we approach understanding what we read.

as i stated i have no issue with the point of all truth .he will lead us into all truth we need to know. but to discount it as just simply for the disciples. the same spirit of truth is here for us today Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life through His Spirit who lives in you.

 

[Papa Zoom]

as i stated i have no issue with the point of all truth .he will lead us into all truth we need to know. but to discount it as just simply for the disciples. the same spirit of truth is here for us today Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life through His Spirit who lives in you.

I'm not discounting anything. I"m just being accurate in the way I look at these passages. There are things we will never fully know. At least not on this side of death. We can't know all things and see through a glass dimly at the same time. Basically that makes the Bible say "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all Truth except for the Truth He won't guide you into." That is a contradiction. Since we see only in part (1 Corinthians 13:12 ) it would be impossible to at the same time be led into all truth. This seems to be an easy concept to understand. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and does guide believers into Truth and understandings. This is a fact. But no matter how one slices it, we see only in part. That means we don't and won't see all Truth. Where we know Truth, that's the work of the Spirit.

 

[ezra]

this post has done hit a dead end :yes

 

[Papa Zoom]

this post has done hit a dead end :yes

Well maybe. But it's still open.

 

[JAG ..]

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to understand what my actual position is.

Great thread Papa Zoom, I thought you did an excellent job in making your points, points that
clearly stand unrefuted in this thread (Strawmen and Misdirection fallacies have no refuting power).
I enjoyed reading along in the thread. God bless.