The Holy Spirit must be a Person

[WalterandDebbie]

So far very peaceful discussion.

Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God (Jesus Christ), which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here (with Scriptural backing) brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all.

Good morning, And how is everyone? Jesus Christ Is The Same Yesterday Today And Forever, Looking Unto Him Is The Best Thing That Can Ever Happen To A Person.

The Gospel Of Grace Is Given By Divine Revelation, Galatians 1:10-12 KJV

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[My Rock]

Hypothetically, what God did for Jesus, by being his Father and making him the Christ, God could do for others. The point isn't something Jesus inherently was/is, but rather something God made him.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This exaltation signifies the completion and validation of His work as the Messiah. It is in this sense that God "made" Jesus both Lord and Christ—not that He became something He wasn’t before, but that His identity and mission were fully revealed and recognized following His resurrection. Thus, Acts 2:36 points to the post-resurrection recognition and declaration (Simply an affirmation of Who He already was) of Jesus’ divine authority and messianic fulfillment.

 

[Runningman]

This exaltation signifies the completion and validation of His work as the Messiah. It is in this sense that God "made" Jesus both Lord and Christ—not that He became something He wasn’t before, but that His identity and mission were fully revealed and recognized following His resurrection. Thus, Acts 2:36 points to the post-resurrection recognition and declaration (Simply an affirmation of Who He already was) of Jesus’ divine authority and messianic fulfillment.

The word for "hath made" is a verb in the Greek. It says Jesus' Lordship and Christhood was manufactured or constructed by God. This is how it's consistently used through the NT. So how can someone exist eternally as Lord/Christ/God if their status was constructed? Doesn't that infer that Jesus became something he wasn't before and that he isn't God?

 

[My Rock]

The word for "hath made" is a verb in the Greek. It says Jesus' Lordship and Christhood was manufactured or constructed by God. This is how it's consistently used through the NT. So how can someone exist eternally as Lord and Christ and God if their status was constructed? Doesn't that infer that Jesus became something he wasn't before?

Luke 2:11, "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

This passage, spoken by the angel to the shepherds, announces that Jesus, from the moment of His birth, is recognized as the Savior, the Christ (Messiah), and the Lord. It acknowledges His role and identity right from the start, although the full realization of His Lordship would be understood more fully after His resurrection.

The response that the Greek verb for "hath made" in Acts 2:36 implies that Jesus' Lordship and Christhood were "manufactured or constructed" by God does raise an interesting point. However, this interpretation needs to be understood in the broader biblical context of Jesus' divine identity and mission.

The verb translated as "hath made" in Acts 2:36 is poieō, which can indeed mean "to make" or "to appoint." In this context, it indicates that God declared or appointed Jesus as Lord and Christ through His resurrection and exaltation. This does not mean that Jesus' divine nature or identity was created at that moment, but rather that His role as Lord and Christ was officially recognized and revealed through these pivotal events in salvation history.

In Oneness theology, it is understood that Jesus is the manifestation of the one true God in the flesh. While His humanity began in time through the incarnation, His divine identity as the Word (Logos) was eternal. The title "Lord" and "Christ" were roles that were fully realized and affirmed through His earthly ministry, death, and resurrection, but this does not imply that He became something He wasn’t before in essence. Instead, it signifies the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan, where Jesus, in His humanity, was exalted and recognized as the anointed one (Christ) and given authority (Lord) over all.

This appointment or recognition does not negate His eternal divine nature but rather highlights the moment in history when His full identity and mission were revealed to humanity. Therefore, Jesus' Lordship and Christhood were not "manufactured" in the sense of creating something new, but rather God publicly declared and fulfilled what had been purposed from the beginning of time in His divine plan.

Revelation 13:8, ".... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

 

[hawkman]

I never gave that thought. I love God, Father Son and Holy Spirit. My love doesn't distinguish between the Persons.

Its correct I direct my prayer to the Father, but I am not thereby excluding the Spirit and I am fully aware Jesus' Sacrifice is the ONLY reason I can pray to the Father. His atoning sacrifice for my sin made my access to God possible.

But aside from that cerebral and very thankful thought, I don't distinguish the persons. I pray to God the Father without thereby excluding the Son or the Holy Spirit. I might briefly direct a prayer to Christ or the Holy Spirit, but I pray to God alone and it would never be in my thought all Three were not listening to my prayer.

9 "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. (Matt. 6:9-13 NKJ)

Following Christ's instruction causes me to remember certain infallible truths every time I pray. I pray in that manner every day at least once.

Whether one can make this a topic of systematic theology is unanswered. But I believe all should follow their conscience, the divine revelation God gave them when they believed, and not become mechanical.

7 "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. (Matt. 6:7-8 NKJ)

Very good thoughts you shared !

I spend very little time posting in these Trinity threads . Why ? I consider The Father , The Son and The Holy Spirit as equals in my life as a Christian . While there is a division of work among The 3 , I see no reason to put in place a ranking system as some seem to want to .

 

[My Rock]

Very good thoughts you shared !

I spend very little time posting in these Trinity threads . Why ? I consider The Father , The Son and The Holy Spirit as equals in my life as a Christian . While there is a division of work among The 3 , I see no reason to put in place a ranking system as some seem to want to .

Today's definition of the Trinity refers to the Christian doctrine that describes God as being one in essence but existing in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial, meaning they share the same divine nature. The doctrine asserts that while each person is fully and completely God, they are not three separate gods but one God in three persons. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father, yet they are all fully God and exist in a relationship of love and unity within the one Godhead. This understanding of God as a triune being is a central tenet of mainstream Christian theology, developed over centuries through church councils and theological debates to articulate the nature of God's being as revealed in the Scriptures.

The issue with the Trinitarian view lies in its internal separation of the one God into distinct persons. Trinitarians rightly assert that God is one, indivisible in essence, but then introduce a framework that internally divides this one God into three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This division, while theoretically consistent with their doctrine, creates a conceptual dissonance when it comes to understanding the true nature of God as revealed in Scripture.

 

[Runningman]

Luke 2:11, "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

This passage, spoken by the angel to the shepherds, announces that Jesus, from the moment of His birth, is recognized as the Savior, the Christ (Messiah), and the Lord. It acknowledges His role and identity right from the start, although the full realization of His Lordship would be understood more fully after His resurrection.

The response that the Greek verb for "hath made" in Acts 2:36 implies that Jesus' Lordship and Christhood were "manufactured or constructed" by God does raise an interesting point. However, this interpretation needs to be understood in the broader biblical context of Jesus' divine identity and mission.

The verb translated as "hath made" in Acts 2:36 is poieō, which can indeed mean "to make" or "to appoint." In this context, it indicates that God declared or appointed Jesus as Lord and Christ through His resurrection and exaltation. This does not mean that Jesus' divine nature or identity was created at that moment, but rather that His role as Lord and Christ was officially recognized and revealed through these pivotal events in salvation history.

In Oneness theology, it is understood that Jesus is the manifestation of the one true God in the flesh. While His humanity began in time through the incarnation, His divine identity as the Word (Logos) was eternal. The title "Lord" and "Christ" were roles that were fully realized and affirmed through His earthly ministry, death, and resurrection, but this does not imply that He became something He wasn’t before in essence. Instead, it signifies the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan, where Jesus, in His humanity, was exalted and recognized as the anointed one (Christ) and given authority (Lord) over all.

This appointment or recognition does not negate His eternal divine nature but rather highlights the moment in history when His full identity and mission were revealed to humanity. Therefore, Jesus' Lordship and Christhood were not "manufactured" in the sense of creating something new, but rather God publicly declared and fulfilled what had been purposed from the beginning of time in His divine plan.

Revelation 13:8, ".... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Indeed an angel did announce that Jesus is Christ the Lord upon his birth, but even before he was born Elizabeth stated that Mary is the mother of the prenatal Jesus, whom she called her Lord (Luke 1:43) indicating that the kind of Lord she is referring to is indeed a human Lord, rather than a God Lord, because Mary is the mother of a human and not the mother of God. Therefore, any time Jesus is referred to as Lord it is not in reference to being God.

In Psalm 110:1, David wrote "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool..." indicating that the LORD YHWH and the Lord Jesus are not the same Lord. In context of Jesus being a created Lord, Psalm 110:1 is quoted in Acts 2:34,35 while Peter, in verse 36, says that God made Jesus both the Lord and Christ, indicating the fulfillment of prophecy and Jesus' subsequent placement at the right hand of God.

The prophecies concerning Jesus' Lordship did not find their fulfillment until after his birth since there are no pre-existent examples of Jesus acting as Lord or Christ. All of the Messianic prophecies concerning Jesus in regards to his Lordship or Christhood did not find fulfillment until the New Testament.

The verse you quoted from Revelation 13:8 is in regards to something that did not happen even though it was spoken of as if it had happened already. I believe you mentioned this elsewhere, but sometimes prophecy speaks of things that are not as if they are because of God's omniscience and omnipresence.

However, Jesus was only crucified one time according to Scripture; not one time before the world and then another in Israel. Nothing regarding Jesus occurred until after he was born, indicating he didn't have a literal pre-existence.

Hebrews 9
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[hawkman]

This division, while theoretically consistent with their doctrine, creates a conceptual dissonance when it comes to understanding the true nature of God as revealed in Scripture.

So you must have a ranking system , you know like 1 , 2 and 3 so you can avoid that nasty conceptual dissonance you speak of .

The Father , The Son , and The Holy Spirit are they equal for you or not ?

I know all Three are just as real as as They can be .

 

[My Rock]

So you must have a ranking system , you know like 1 , 2 and 3 so you can avoid that nasty conceptual dissonance you speak of .

The Father , The Son , and The Holy Spirit are they equal for you or not ?

I know all Three are just as real as as They can be .

People are having a hard time understanding my position even when I spell it out directly. I don't believe in 3-in-1, I believe 1 has 3 simultaneous roles.

The concept of ranking or hierarchical order among the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is not applicable, as it would imply a division of the divine essence or a hierarchy within the singular God. Instead, the Bible emphasizes the absolute unity and indivisibility of God.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not seen as three distinct persons with different levels of authority or essence but as manifestations of the one God. Each "title" or "role" represents different ways in which the one God reveals Himself throughout history and interacts with His creation today.

The Father represents God in His transcendent, overarching role as Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

The Son (Jesus Christ) represents God incarnated in flesh, fulfilling the role of Messiah, Redeemer, and the means by which humanity can be reconciled to God.

The Holy Spirit represents God’s active presence and power working within believers and the world today.
In this understanding, the concept of equality is maintained not by ranking but by affirming that the same divine essence is present in all three roles or manifestations. There is no internal division or hierarchy, as all these roles are expressions of the singular, undivided God.

The Bible maintains that the fullness of God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—is contained in one divine being, thus avoiding the conceptual dissonance seen in a Trinitarian framework where three distinct persons are said to coexist in one essence. The unity and equality of God in Oneness theology are understood through the concept of one God revealing Himself in different ways, rather than as separate persons with distinct hierarchies or roles.

 

[hawkman]

The unity and equality of God in Oneness theology are understood through the concept of one God revealing Himself in different ways, rather than as separate persons with distinct hierarchies or roles.

WHAT !? ! No roles and yet you use the word role below ! Are you ok ?

The Father represents God in His transcendent, overarching role as Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

The Son (Jesus Christ) represents God incarnated in flesh, fulfilling the role of Messiah, Redeemer, and the means by which humanity can be reconciled to God.

The Holy Spirit represents God’s active presence and power working within believers and the world today.
In this understanding, the concept of equality is maintained not by ranking but by affirming that the same divine essence is present in all three roles or manifestations. There is no internal division or hierarchy, as all these roles are expressions of the singular, undivided God.

 

[My Rock]

WHAT !? ! No roles and yet you use the word role below ! Are you ok ?

Trying to misrepresent and twist my own words against me and not understanding basic context and I am the One that's not OK??? Two different context very easy to see if you understand english. Unless, you are purposely trying to cause division and strife. Here they are:

1. "The unity and equality of God in Oneness theology are understood through the concept of one God revealing Himself in different ways, rather than as separate persons with distinct hierarchies or roles." I am speaking here of multiplicity of God each having roles. Roles yes but not by 3 only by One.

2. "The Father represents God in His transcendent, overarching role as Creator and Sustainer of the universe. The Son (Jesus Christ) represents God incarnated in flesh, fulfilling the role of Messiah, Redeemer, and the means by which humanity can be reconciled to God." I am speaking of the singular God and His roles as .....

 

[hawkman]

People are having a hard time understanding my position

BOY Howdy ! Do I ever agree with you on not understanding your position . Roles and role don't mean roles and role .

 

[Runningman]

People are having a hard time understanding my position even when I spell it out directly. I don't believe in 3-in-1, I believe 1 has 3 simultaneous roles.

Are you a Oneness theologian? While I know sometimes we don't like assigning labels to ourselves, it actually helps us describe who we are a bit better and allows others to understand us better. I am a Unitarian and I have many of the same beliefs as Biblical Unitarians and I hold many of the same beliefs as Christadelphians as well. For full disclosure, I don't agree with everything they say.

Long story short, I believe that God is just one person known as the Father and they sometimes call Him Holy Spirit, but a spirit of holiness (a holy spirit) is also a gift we can have. Jesus is His Son, our Lord, our Savior, and our brother who is leading us to God.

 

[My Rock]

BOY Howdy ! Do I ever agree with you on not understanding your position . Roles and role don't mean roles and role .

It's clear that when someone insists that "roles" don’t actually mean "roles" and that distinct roles within the Godhead somehow don't imply distinction, it becomes difficult to follow their logic. If we accept that God has revealed Himself in different roles—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—yet argue that these roles don't signify distinct ways in which God interacts with humanity, we end up in a confusing and contradictory position. It's like saying something means one thing but then denying its clear implications. The idea that roles are merely titles without any real difference or significance undermines the very concept of roles altogether. This line of reasoning becomes almost nonsensical, as it tries to hold onto the language of distinct roles while denying their distinctiveness, leading to a circular and unconvincing argument.

 

[My Rock]

Are you a Oneness theologian?

Yes But not Unitarian, modalism, or modalistic Monarchianism. Just simply the Oneness of the Bible.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because both the Father and Son are "persons", "the Holy Spirit" must also be a person, He is equally subsisting in the one "Name" we are to be baptized in.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

As they publicly ministered to Jehovah, it was the Holy Spirit who spoke, commanding the disciples separate to Him Barnabas and Saul. Then, they "being sent out by the Holy Spirit" set about accomplishing His Will. Only a "Person" can say "I" "Me" and send people to do "their will".

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:2-4 NKJ)

Saying "I" "Me" and commanding the disciples is as impossible for an electrical current as it is any impersonal active force:

Scripture is always 100% truth (Daniel 10:21; John 17:17) because:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

PS: Scripture equips making the man of God complete. Notice, neither the Catholic Magisterium, Book of Mormon, Watchtower Magazine are included in this statement. Therefore, they are irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, the man of God is made complete by scripture without them.

If He is a person, He isn't a spirit .

 

[Runningman]

If He is a person, He isn't a spirit .

Then the Holy Spirit isn't a person in the Trinity?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then the Holy Spirit isn't a person in the Trinity?

You will need to supply the scripture where a trinity is defined.

 

[Runningman]

You will need to supply the scripture where a trinity is defined.

Nothing to add.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Because both the Father and Son are "persons", "the Holy Spirit" must also be a person, He is equally subsisting in the one "Name" we are to be baptized in.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

As they publicly ministered to Jehovah, it was the Holy Spirit who spoke, commanding the disciples separate to Him Barnabas and Saul. Then, they "being sent out by the Holy Spirit" set about accomplishing His Will. Only a "Person" can say "I" "Me" and send people to do "their will".

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:2-4 NKJ)

Saying "I" "Me" and commanding the disciples is as impossible for an electrical current as it is any impersonal active force:

Scripture is always 100% truth (Daniel 10:21; John 17:17) because:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

PS: Scripture equips making the man of God complete. Notice, neither the Catholic Magisterium, Book of Mormon, Watchtower Magazine are included in this statement. Therefore, they are irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, the man of God is made complete by scripture without them.

Good morning again Alfred Persson, And how are you all?

God’s Spirit and You

A summary: The Holy Spirit is God’s power. It is not a person. It is the way God and Christ work in human beings. When the Spirit guides or inspires a Christian to do something, it is really God doing this work through them.

But simply knowing the truth about the Holy Spirit will only help you so much. Even more important is receiving its power—having the Holy Spirit at work in your own life! Remember Jesus’ statement that the disciples would “receive power.” That promise did not apply only to the original apostles, it is available to anyone called by God who pursues it!

The Holy Spirit is the ultimate source of power and inspiration. You must take advantage of it if you want to serve God.

Yet there are qualifiers for receiving it. Acts 5:32 speaks of “the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to them that obey Him.” While the Spirit will empower you to keep God’s commandments like never before, you must do your best to obey God even before receiving it.

Peter, in his Pentecost sermon, added more parameters for receiving this special gift: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). “Repent” simply means to change. Mark 1:15 shows that we must also “believe the gospel.”

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

The topic of the “Holy Ghost” in the Bible can feel confusing and mysterious. This need not be!

rcg.org

Love, Walter And Debbie