The Holy Spirit must be a Person

[kbmonday]

Just because we are not allowed to see God (as Moses DID ) in a physical form does not mean with certainty He does not have a physical form .


You have no scripture to base this on .

Right. And we do have scripture that shows what WOULD happen to God physically, and we know this to have been fulfilled by our Messiah Jesus Christ. Zechariah 12:8-11 (KJV)

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

You can't pierce someone who has no spacial dimensional qualities.

 

[My Rock]

You have no scripture to base this on .

The concept of the incarnation involves God's self-expressive Word becoming manifest in the person of Jesus Christ. This theological perspective finds grounding in several key scriptural passages. John 1:1-14 declares that "the Word was God" and that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Here, the "Word" symbolizes God's self-revelation, which, in its fullness, becomes incarnate in Jesus Christ. This passage indicates that the divine Word, inseparable from God’s essence, is the same Word that took on human form. Additionally, Colossians 2:9 states, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," which confirms that Jesus embodies the fullness of the divine nature.

This implies that God's eternal attributes—His thoughts, plans, and motives—are revealed in Jesus, without diminishing His divine essence. Hebrews 1:3 reinforces this by describing Jesus as "the express image of His person," suggesting that Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God. The incarnation, therefore, is not a separate or secondary entity but a manifestation of the one God’s eternal self-expression. This understanding underscores that the divine Word's transition into human form was a deliberate act of God to reveal Himself fully to humanity, while maintaining His unchanging divine nature. Thus, Jesus Christ as the Son is not a separate being from God but the complete manifestation of God’s Word, embodying divine truth in action.

 

[kbmonday]

The concept of the incarnation involves God's self-expressive Word becoming manifest in the person of Jesus Christ. This theological perspective finds grounding in several key scriptural passages. John 1:1-14 declares that "the Word was God" and that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Here, the "Word" symbolizes God's self-revelation, which, in its fullness, becomes incarnate in Jesus Christ. This passage indicates that the divine Word, inseparable from God’s essence, is the same Word that took on human form. Additionally, Colossians 2:9 states, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," which confirms that Jesus embodies the fullness of the divine nature.

This implies that God's eternal attributes—His thoughts, plans, and motives—are revealed in Jesus, without diminishing His divine essence. Hebrews 1:3 reinforces this by describing Jesus as "the express image of His person," suggesting that Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God. The incarnation, therefore, is not a separate or secondary entity but a manifestation of the one God’s eternal self-expression. This understanding underscores that the divine Word's transition into human form was a deliberate act of God to reveal Himself fully to humanity, while maintaining His unchanging divine nature. Thus, Jesus Christ as the Son is not a separate being from God but the complete manifestation of God’s Word, embodying divine truth in action.

Well said brother!

 

[My Rock]

Well said brother!

Thanks

 

[Runningman]

The concept of the incarnation involves God's self-expressive Word becoming manifest in the person of Jesus Christ. This theological perspective finds grounding in several key scriptural passages. John 1:1-14 declares that "the Word was God" and that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Here, the "Word" symbolizes God's self-revelation, which, in its fullness, becomes incarnate in Jesus Christ. This passage indicates that the divine Word, inseparable from God’s essence, is the same Word that took on human form. Additionally, Colossians 2:9 states, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," which confirms that Jesus embodies the fullness of the divine nature.

This implies that God's eternal attributes—His thoughts, plans, and motives—are revealed in Jesus, without diminishing His divine essence. Hebrews 1:3 reinforces this by describing Jesus as "the express image of His person," suggesting that Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God. The incarnation, therefore, is not a separate or secondary entity but a manifestation of the one God’s eternal self-expression. This understanding underscores that the divine Word's transition into human form was a deliberate act of God to reveal Himself fully to humanity, while maintaining His unchanging divine nature. Thus, Jesus Christ as the Son is not a separate being from God but the complete manifestation of God’s Word, embodying divine truth in action.

I might add, that even this has nothing to do with an incarnation. The same thing you say makes Jesus the "incarnation of God" is the same thing a true Christian can have: a state of being filled with the fullness of God.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[My Rock]

I might add, that even this has nothing to do with the incarnation. The same thing you say makes Jesus the "incarnation of God" is the same thing a true Christian can have a state of being filled with the fullness of God.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Ephesians 3:19 speaks of believers being filled with the fullness of God, which refers to the indwelling presence of God’s Spirit within them. This fullness enables believers to experience God's transformative power and love in their lives, but it does not equate to becoming the divine embodiment of God as Jesus is. The experience of being filled with God’s fullness is a matter of spiritual enrichment and empowerment, not a transformation into the divine essence or nature.

Jesus’ incarnation is unique because it involved the Godhead manifesting in a singular, historical event—Jesus Christ’s birth, life, death, and resurrection. This incarnation was a deliberate and unprecedented act by God to reveal His nature and fulfill His redemptive plan for humanity. On the other hand, believers’ experience of God’s fullness through the Holy Spirit is a result of their union with Christ, who is the source of this divine relationship. Believers are invited to partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live out their faith, but this does not make them the incarnate form of God.

 

[hawkman]

Right. And we do have scripture that shows what WOULD happen to God physically, and we know this to have been fulfilled by our Messiah Jesus Christ. Zechariah 12:8-11 (KJV)

Yes we do have scripture showing what would happen to the Son of God physically , his humanity allowed this .

You can't pierce someone who has no spacial dimensional qualities.

Yes , the Son of God or as He liked the Son of man .

 

[kbmonday]

Yes we do have scripture showing what would happen to the Son of God physically , his humanity allowed this .

Yes , the Son of God or as He liked the Son of man .

Question for all involved: do you think that Melchizedek in Gen 14 and Psalm 110 are also about the Son? If so, is that who men have seen?

 

[hawkman]

Hebrews 1:3 reinforces this by describing Jesus as "the express image of His person," suggesting that Jesus is the visible representation of the invisible God.

Jesus is the visible representation of the unseen God in heaven . But who has seen God ? For someone invisible he was seen by many .

Exodus 24

9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.


If you want to say the Son of God is the visible representation of the God we are not allowed to see you can .

Hebrews 1
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[My Rock]

Jesus is the visible representation of the unseen God in heaven . But who has seen God ? For someone invisible he was seen by many .

Exodus 24

9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.


If you want to say the Son of God is the visible representation of the God we are not allowed to see you can .

Hebrews 1
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I can go with that. He is unseen to us invisible and can choose to appear in form however He chooses.

 

[Runningman]

Ephesians 3:19 speaks of believers being filled with the fullness of God, which refers to the indwelling presence of God’s Spirit within them. This fullness enables believers to experience God's transformative power and love in their lives, but it does not equate to becoming the divine embodiment of God as Jesus is. The experience of being filled with God’s fullness is a matter of spiritual enrichment and empowerment, not a transformation into the divine essence or nature.

Jesus’ incarnation is unique because it involved the Godhead manifesting in a singular, historical event—Jesus Christ’s birth, life, death, and resurrection. This incarnation was a deliberate and unprecedented act by God to reveal His nature and fulfill His redemptive plan for humanity. On the other hand, believers’ experience of God’s fullness through the Holy Spirit is a result of their union with Christ, who is the source of this divine relationship. Believers are invited to partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live out their faith, but this does not make them the incarnate form of God.

I would say there isn't any difference between saying Jesus had the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in his body and a true Christian being filled with the fullness of God. If the fullness of God is all of God then then it's just as good as saying "Godhead" so it looks like there is very little, if any, semantical or theological differences between Jesus and a what a true Christian can have.

What Colossians 2:9 and Ephesians 3:19 are about is both Jesus and his followers having the indwelling Spirit of God, not that those who have God in them are themselves God or else one may say that the term "the body of Christ" is equal to "the body of God" and therefore God has a body and we Christians ourselves God. For the record, I believe this would be a tragic misunderstanding, but there are those who do accidentally go too far with this and begin believing they are themselves a manifestation of God or a reincarnation of Jesus.

All Paul was really trying to say in Colossians 2:9 and Ephesians 3:19 is that not only is Jesus a temple of God (John 2:19-21) but so are normal Christians (1 Corinthians 3:16), but God does not require the service of humans in the first place even though we can be His temple (Acts 17:24,25.)

However, this shows why it's important to keep God and Jesus distinct and sperate from each other. Since Jesus and Christians have so many things in common then often times the very arguments used to claim Jesus is God are often the very things that can hypothetically apply to a normal Christians. Almost everything Jesus had, will have, has or did the normal Christian can also share with him.

Romans 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[kbmonday]

I would say there isn't any difference between saying Jesus had the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in his body and a true Christian being filled with the fullness of God. If the fullness of God is all of God then then it's just as good as saying "Godhead" so it looks like there is very little, if any, semantical or theological differences between Jesus and a what a true Christian can have.

What Colossians 2:9 and Ephesians 3:19 are about is both Jesus and his followers having the indwelling Spirit of God, not that those who have God in them are themselves God or else one may say that the term "the body of Christ" is equal to "the body of God" and therefore God has a body and we Christians ourselves God. For the record, I believe this would be a tragic misunderstanding, but there are those who do accidentally go too far with this and begin believing they are themselves a manifestation of God or a reincarnation of Jesus.

All Paul was really trying to say in Colossians 2:9 and Ephesians 3:19 is that not only is Jesus a temple of God (John 2:19-21) but so are normal Christians (1 Corinthians 3:16), but God does not require the service of humans in the first place even though we can be His temple (Acts 17:24,25.)

However, this shows why it's important to keep God and Jesus distinct and sperate from each other. Since Jesus and Christians have so many things in common then often times the very arguments used to claim Jesus is God are often the very things that can hypothetically apply to a normal Christians. Almost everything Jesus had, will have, has or did the normal Christian can also share with him.

Romans 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I have never seen a Christian walk on water, heal blind and crippled, multiply a basket of fish and bread to feed thousands, or any of the miracles Jesus did. There most certainly is a difference between the fullness of the Godhead and the Holy Spirit. The Bible makes no separation between Jesus and God and some of the OT prophecies regarding Yeshua show it is God himself who came in the flesh, as our Lord and Savior. You weren't arguing against that, right?

 

[My Rock]

so it looks like there is very little, if any, semantical or theological differences between Jesus and a what a true Christian can have.

So what you are telling me you believe is that any Christian can qualify to atone for Sin of ALL mankind.

 

[My Rock]

I have never seen a Christian walk on water, heal blind and crippled, multiply a basket of fish and bread to feed thousands, or any of the miracles Jesus did.

While it’s true that we may not often witness the dramatic miracles Jesus performed, such as walking on water or multiplying food, Scripture teaches that those baptized in the Holy Ghost are empowered to do the works Jesus did. Jesus Himself said in John 14:12, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” This promise is affirmed throughout the Acts of the Apostles and in the New Testament, where we see the early Christians performing miraculous works through the power of the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 14:28-29 (KJV), we see Peter walking on water towards Jesus: "And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus." This event demonstrates that even during Jesus’ earthly ministry, the power to perform such a miracle was extended to His followers through faith. In Acts 2:4, the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost, and this empowerment marked the beginning of their miraculous ministry. In Acts 3:6-8, Peter and John healed a crippled man at the temple gate, demonstrating the continuation of Jesus’ healing ministry. Acts 5:12-16 describes how the apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people, with even Peter’s shadow healing the sick (Acts 5:15). Similarly, in Acts 9:36-42, Peter raised Tabitha (Dorcas) from the dead, showcasing the power of resurrection through the Holy Spirit.

The theological truth here is that the same Holy Spirit that empowered Jesus' earthly ministry is given to all believers who are baptized in the Holy Ghost. The miracles performed by the apostles and other early Christians, including Peter walking on water, serve as evidence that the works Jesus did are not limited to His own earthly ministry but are available to the church today. These acts are not merely symbolic but are intended to demonstrate the power and presence of God at work in the world through His people.

This truth calls us to recognize that the potential for miraculous works exists wherever the Holy Spirit is active. While the specific manifestations may vary, the principle remains: through faith and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, believers are called to continue the work of Jesus, making His presence known in the world through both word and deed.

 

[My Rock]

I have never seen a Christian walk on water, heal blind and crippled, multiply a basket of fish and bread to feed thousands, or any of the miracles Jesus did.

On my previous post in no way am I saying we are divine in the same way christ is. We cannot forgive sin. We cannot die for the spiritual salvation of mankind. And we don't have the power to resurrect our own body.

 

[kbmonday]

On my previous post in no way am I saying we are divine in the same way christ is. We cannot forgive sin. We cannot die for the spiritual salvation of mankind. And we don't have the power to resurrect our own body.

Thank you for the clarity, as I was not very concise when I made my comment. You are absolutely right in your earlier comment, if Jesus is not divine, Christianity would be meaningless. This is where faith comes into play.

 

[kbmonday]

On a different note, is anyone getting angry in this discussion or is it too divisive? I wanted to ensure that we wouldn't devolve into arguments about who is or isn't teaching false doctrine once or twice, but instead to edify those who are young Christians and give them a defense against the obvious false teachers that most if not all born again Christians could agree were teaching a different gospel.

 

[My Rock]

So far very peaceful discussion.

Noone on Earth brings new revelation, that isn't already revealed through the Word of God (Jesus Christ), which is fullest revelation given to man. Through the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost, I Pray what we say here (with Scriptural backing) brings the truth of these Revelations, truth by truth, or precept upon precept, to the heart of the hearer. Lay what we say before the feet of Jesus (Word of God) and compare, the Bible is Always truth, so if they don't match, we need to reevaluate our stance. What we say or do here will have lasting impact upon the believer and sinner alike. We most certainly have freedom of speech, but any true christian will weigh what they say against the Word of God and if they don't agree God is not in error, and we need to pray for understanding. Those that have more meat of the Word can help those who are struggling, if done with humility, peace and love. I don't mind a peaceful debate, but when we start to argue amongst each other that is not the Spirit of God. God Bless and Peace to you all.

 

[Runningman]

So what you are telling me you believe is that any Christian can qualify to atone for Sin of ALL mankind.

Hypothetically, what God did for Jesus, by being his Father and making him the Christ, God could do for others. The point isn't something Jesus inherently was/is, but rather something God made him.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[Runningman]

I have never seen a Christian walk on water, heal blind and crippled, multiply a basket of fish and bread to feed thousands, or any of the miracles Jesus did.

I believe this question was already answered, but the many of the kinds of miracles Jesus did were done by others.

There most certainly is a difference between the fullness of the Godhead and the Holy Spirit.

But being filled with the "fullness of the Godhead" and/or the "fullness of God" mean the same things don't they?

The Bible makes no separation between Jesus and God and some of the OT prophecies regarding Yeshua show it is God himself who came in the flesh, as our Lord and Savior. You weren't arguing against that, right?

Which verses show there is no distinction between Jesus and God? I am aware of some of the titles they share, but did you know there are almost two dozen titles and/or characteristics that Jesus and God don't share? Probably worth it's own thread so it gets the attention it deserves on page 1 and not page 10.