The identity of the antichrist in 5 verses

[Jethro Bodine]

Have we even determined if the sign of the beast really is '666' and not '616' as some translators say it could be?

 

[gracenote]

I wish we could just go back to,"We reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE."

As Christians operating in the free market, we need to use our heads because we are the first to be "dumped on."

If I sell a cake to someone who I know is drinking to much, am I participating in his sin?
If I take pictures of 2 unbelievers who get married by the justice of the peace and I know that they are having premarital sex. Am I participating in their sin? In fact, I should be there, I may have a chance to witness the Gospel to them.

This is the way the world works. If we want to refuse service to someone because we are a Christian. We better be prepared to be refused service because we are Christians.

To be choosy then would exclude someone at some point.
We are to "Do unto others as we would have them do unto us."
So, if I were to show up in Greenwich Village, NY or San Francisco, on business or for sight seeing, wearing my little cross around my neck, would I enjoy being turned away from an LGBT person's store when I required something that person had for sale in his or her store? Based solely upon the fact I am a Christian, does that person have the right to say to me, "No. I won't serve you. Go away."?
I think that to take this overly into negative regions is really a sad, sad thing to do.
Would anger or disappointment offer Christ to people who need His love or to be saved by Him?
I think we need to be careful and follow the path He proclaims for us.
He said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself," and not "You can love me, love yourself, and only your Christian or hetero neighbors."

I also can recall a mistake I once made. I had judged a woman I knew, thinking that she was a lesbian. Actually, she was a widow of a long term marriage, and just sporty. She liked sports and the out of doors. They had several kids together, that couple.
So who knows what somebody's really like inside? Only the Lord may judge.
Hebrews 13:2 "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."
Also--who finds Christ through being constantly rejected by the Christian community?
It's true that some LGBT people have actually found peace with Christian belief. Some have trouble over their faith along with their gender identity. Some are even in crisis over it. Others found the way forward a little more easily, yet still struggled.
And, as I mentioned earlier at this site, more often than not, there is something troubling these people without their say-so.
If a person wasn't born that way, yet can't figure it out, how can I blame that person for being different?
Or, if a person actually was born that way (I don't actually understand it yet myself), but we have yet to discern what's caused their difference, to treat them with anything less than our joy in Christ through doing as He's said we ought, I think, could cause problems for everybody.
This does not mean I am ready to emulate that way of being.
But then, neither does it mean I should hate that person.
Refusing anyone service is, I feel, downright wrong. I used to say that to myself when I worked with the public on a regular basis.
"You don't have to like everybody you serve, just be fair, kind, and offer them the truth." that's what I told myself.
I never evangelized in the job. That pretty much wasn't allowed in my contract, and would have been frowned upon. It's a small town. Everybody knew my Sunday morning routine of church first.
But there's more than one way of showing people we love the Lord and serve Him.
Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
But does to love the sinner mean that we too are sinning?
And would it directly imply our emulation of that person's motives or behavior?
What are the fruits of my love towards others?
I may stink at such a task at times. Not too proud of my past track record there.
But the fruits are what mattered to the Lord, otherwise, he wouldn't mention them so often in the Gospels.

 

[gr8grace3]

To be choosy then would exclude someone at some point.
We are to "Do unto others as we would have them do unto us."
So, if I were to show up in Greenwich Village, NY or San Francisco, on business or for sight seeing, wearing my little cross around my neck, would I enjoy being turned away from an LGBT person's store when I required something that person had for sale in his or her store? Based solely upon the fact I am a Christian, does that person have the right to say to me, "No. I won't serve you. Go away."?
I think that to take this overly into negative regions is really a sad, sad thing to do.
Would anger or disappointment offer Christ to people who need His love or to be saved by Him?
I think we need to be careful and follow the path He proclaims for us.
He said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself," and not "You can love me, love yourself, and only your Christian or hetero neighbors."

I also can recall a mistake I once made. I had judged a woman I knew, thinking that she was a lesbian. Actually, she was a widow of a long term marriage, and just sporty. She liked sports and the out of doors. They had several kids together, that couple.
So who knows what somebody's really like inside? Only the Lord may judge.
Hebrews 13:2 "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."
Also--who finds Christ through being constantly rejected by the Christian community?
It's true that some LGBT people have actually found peace with Christian belief. Some have trouble over their faith along with their gender identity. Some are even in crisis over it. Others found the way forward a little more easily, yet still struggled.
And, as I mentioned earlier at this site, more often than not, there is something troubling these people without their say-so.
If a person wasn't born that way, yet can't figure it out, how can I blame that person for being different?
Or, if a person actually was born that way (I don't actually understand it yet myself), but we have yet to discern what's caused their difference, to treat them with anything less than our joy in Christ through doing as He's said we ought, I think, could cause problems for everybody.
This does not mean I am ready to emulate that way of being.
But then, neither does it mean I should hate that person.
Refusing anyone service is, I feel, downright wrong. I used to say that to myself when I worked with the public on a regular basis.
"You don't have to like everybody you serve, just be fair, kind, and offer them the truth." that's what I told myself.
I never evangelized in the job. That pretty much wasn't allowed in my contract, and would have been frowned upon. It's a small town. Everybody knew my Sunday morning routine of church first.
But there's more than one way of showing people we love the Lord and serve Him.
Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
But does to love the sinner mean that we too are sinning?
And would it directly imply our emulation of that person's motives or behavior?
What are the fruits of my love towards others?
I may stink at such a task at times. Not too proud of my past track record there.
But the fruits are what mattered to the Lord, otherwise, he wouldn't mention them so often in the Gospels.

You didn't get my point.

In a free world, I should have the right to refuse service to ANYONE. And if I am a bigot or an idiot. My FREE countrymen have the right to refuse my services. Or start another business to cater to the folks I will not and run me out of business. But they should NOT be able to come in and shut me down.

If I was making wedding cakes for a living. I would of made the cake. It is my living and I know that God does not sanction that union, no matter what the state says. And if I had an opportunity to witness the Gospel to them without violating their freedom, I would have.

 

[gracenote]

0

You didn't get my point.

In a free world, I should have the right to refuse service to ANYONE. And if I am a bigot or an idiot. My FREE countrymen have the right to refuse my services. Or start another business to cater to the folks I will not and run me out of business. But they should NOT be able to come in and shut me down.

If I was making wedding cakes for a living. I would of made the cake. It is my living and I know that God does not sanction that union, no matter what the state says. And if I had an opportunity to witness the Gospel to them without violating their freedom, I would have.

I will agree with the second paragraph of your statement.
Guess we cannot agree on the first paragraph's view.
that's OK. You do it your way, and I will do it mine.
God's peace to you

 

[gr8grace3]

0


I will agree with the second paragraph of your statement.
Guess we cannot agree on the first paragraph's view.
that's OK. You do it your way, and I will do it mine.
God's peace to you

You agree that these Christian businesses should be shut down because they refused service to someone?

 

[Deborah13]

So, if I were to show up in Greenwich Village, NY or San Francisco, on business or for sight seeing, wearing my little cross around my neck, would I enjoy being turned away from an LGBT person's store when I required something that person had for sale in his or her store? Based solely upon the fact I am a Christian, does that person have the right to say to me, "No. I won't serve you. Go away."?

I still don't think you are understanding that there is a difference between selling an item to some, serving them a meal, etc. is very different than taking part in their sinful actions.
Take a T--shirt maker. They can refuse to make a T-shirt with satan on the front, a bikers club ad, a statement about legalizing pot, any number of things. They could refuse to make a shirt that celebrates a Christian marriage if they want to, BUT not an LGBT celebration.
A photographer can refuse to take photos of Christian wedding but not a LGBT wedding, he'll get sued and the government will back up the LGBT.
They insist it is their right to force others to take part in their lifestyle. I can't force them to take part in my lifestyle. 2
Neither would I attempt to force them to. That's between them and God.

The baker in Denver had other customers who were LGBT. He never refused to serve them or sell to them. BUT when it came to making a wedding cake, his conscious and his understanding of the scriptures would not allow him to take part in an unholy union. They sued him. Now he doesn't sell any wedding cakes to anyone.

 

[ezrider]

You agree that these Christian businesses should be shut down because they refused service to someone?

Yes, if that is the judgement that the Lord brings upon them for being openly bigoted in the name of Christ, then who am I to say otherwise. It's too bad they never took the message of the kingdom to heart. The question is will they see the error of their ways and have a change of heart? Or will they continue to stand in their own self righteous pride and watch all that they have worked for to be taken from them. Even Billionaires can not buy their way out bigotry and racism.

 

[ezrider]

I still don't think you are understanding that there is a difference between selling an item to some, serving them a meal, etc. is very different than taking part in their sinful actions.
Take a T--shirt maker. They can refuse to make a T-shirt with satan on the front, a bikers club ad, a statement about legalizing pot, any number of things. They could refuse to make a shirt that celebrates a Christian marriage if they want to, BUT not an LGBT celebration.
A photographer can refuse to take photos of Christian wedding but not a LGBT wedding, he'll get sued and the government will back up the LGBT.
They insist it is their right to force others to take part in their lifestyle. I can't force them to take part in my lifestyle. 2
Neither would I attempt to force them to. That's between them and God.

The baker in Denver had other customers who were LGBT. He never refused to serve them or sell to them. BUT when it came to making a wedding cake, his conscious and his understanding of the scriptures would not allow him to take part in an unholy union. They sued him. Now he doesn't sell any wedding cakes to anyone.

So now their sin actions are somehow worse than your own sinful actions. You take the grace of God for yourself but tell me that they somehow sin more exceedingly than yourself and therefore are not worthy of your grace. Is that the judgement that you wish for the Lord to judge you thereby?

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, if that is the judgement that the Lord brings upon them for being openly bigoted in the name of Christ, then who am I to say otherwise. It's too bad they never took the message of the kingdom to heart. The question is will they see the error of their ways and have a change of heart? Or will they continue to stand in their own self righteous pride and watch all that they have worked for to be taken from them. Even Billionaires can not buy their way out bigotry and racism.

Try to extend the same grace to your "bigoted" brothers and sisters as you do to the "bigots" of Christianity. It is a tough one, I know.

 

[john darling]

What do you think people put first before anything else in this world, even if it means just to survive and put food on the table?

Exactly. We have natural needs like food and clothing. If we don't get these things we become uncomfortable or perhaps even die. Because we are naturally insecure and greedy we've set up systems which insure that we will get what we need. We don't need to trust or share when we can buy.

When we cannot get these things we become afraid of suffering and dying. Because we have been taught to believe that buying and selling is the only means of survival then we will logically make the connection that an inability to buy/sell should be avoided at any cost.

The AC will exploit this fear by using buying/selling as the dividing line between who is loyal to his system and who is loyal to God's system of loving and sharing. It's faith vs fear.

 

[Sinthesis]

We buy & sell as an acceptable alternative to take & give.

 

[Deborah13]

So now their sin actions are somehow worse than your own sinful actions. You take the grace of God for yourself but tell me that they somehow sin more exceedingly than yourself and therefore are not worthy of your grace. Is that the judgement that you wish for the Lord to judge you thereby?

All sin is the same. I would not wish for someone to take part in my sin and I certainly wouldn't try to force them to.

 

[turnorburn]

What are the attributes of antichrist what does scripture tell us, is there anyone alive today that fits the description given us in Gods word?

tob

 

[Deborah13]

Try to extend the same grace to your "bigoted" brothers and sisters as you do to the "bigots" of Christianity. It is a tough one, I know.

So if some woman comes along and wants you to have an affair with her you would? After all, her sin is no greater than your sin so let's all just have a sin fest!! You wouldn't want to be called a bigot against prostitutes!!
How about if you were a photographer and someone wanted you to take pornographic pictures of children? If you said no would you be a bigot against pedophiles?

 

[turnorburn]

Founders of "Mainline" Churches Knew Who Anti-Christ Was Then what happened? How did we get sidetracked?

Surely if they could see him why can't/won't we?

tob

 

[turnorburn]

If i remember history people correctly people were lining up to get on those ships to the new land, they wanted freedom, freedom from what?

tob

 

[ezrider]

And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their father...

What does it say about a person when they seek after the "antichrist" instead of the Spirit of the living Christ?

 

[gracenote]

I guess the problem I am having with this thread is, it seems to have been derailed.
I suggest we pray about the people of Baltimore tonight instead of being unhappy over each others variances of opinion.
God's peace to one and all here

 

[gr8grace3]

So if some woman comes along and wants you to have an affair with her you would? After all, her sin is no greater than your sin so let's all just have a sin fest!! You wouldn't want to be called a bigot against prostitutes!!
How about if you were a photographer and someone wanted you to take pornographic pictures of children? If you said no would you be a bigot against pedophiles?

Ok. God bless Deb.

 

[Sinthesis]

Have we even determined if the sign of the beast really is '666' and not '616' as some translators say it could be?

The number of the beast can be either depending on the language of the audience the translation was meant for. This is how we can know who/what that beast was. That beast may even be considered an antichrist for some of its followers or admirerers.