The identity of the antichrist in 5 verses

[Deborah13]

its in the torah, it references what one does with ones mind, one does with one's hand. sin in the mind, sin with the hand.

:nod
Use the mind and the hand to do good.

My one problem with this would be that the one Tefillin gets worn upon the ARM, and never the actual hand.
Doesn't scripture say "forehead" and "hand"?

It doesn't say forehead either, it says 'between the eyes".

I heard from a Karaite Jew, a joke that the Orthodox Jew says about the Karaite Jew and about them not wearing Tefillin. They say the if the Karaite wore Tefillin they'd be bumping into walls because they take the scriptures so literally they would literally wear them between their eyes.
The Karaite don't believe there was an oral law given to Moses. So they just follow the Tanakh which doesn't say anything about the Tefillin.

 

[Deborah13]

One way to approach the endtimes idea of buying and selling:

Moses' law specified what was acceptable for temple sacrifice. Buying and selling is what enabled the faithful to present what was legally acceptable. This legalistic religious requirement is what the money changers had corrupted. Antichrist, through Roman appeasers in the Judean leadership, assumed control over this temple enterprise, which left the otherwise temple faithful unable to fulfill their inherited religious responsibilities under Moses' law unless they thought or acted like the appeasers.

Where's the like button.

 

[gracenote]

its in the torah, it references what one does with ones mind, one does with one's hand. sin in the mind, sin with the hand.

I am not sure about this.
Perhaps we are meant to be watchful via God's Holy Spirit and also look for the signs of the times.
This is a difficult one for me.
And if buying and selling would be involved, I think that we must consider all that is done with our money.
Which stores take our tender?
And are they ethical in their business practices? Would it sadden thee Lord to see us buying or selling there?

Never the less, that is not what this passage we are discussing would refer to.
We are to "examine all things."
Perhaps discussing varying points is a really good idea.

 

[ezrider]

I am not sure about this.
Perhaps we are meant to be watchful via God's Holy Spirit and also look for the signs of the times.
This is a difficult one for me.
And if buying and selling would be involved, I think that we must consider all that is done with our money.
Which stores take our tender?
And are they ethical in their business practices? Would it sadden thee Lord to see us buying or selling there?

Never the less, that is not what this passage we are discussing would refer to.
We are to "examine all things."
Perhaps discussing varying points is a really good idea.

Let me give you something to consider. Stop for a moment and consider the recent laws that Indiana passed and signed into law, as well as the laws the Arkansas and others have attempted to pass in the name of religious freedom. They are laws that are designed to protect these "Christian" businesses from being sued for openly discriminatory practices. The law in effect grants the "Christian" business the right to buy and sell their goods or services to whom they will, and unless you worship the image of their god, then the beast has made it legal for them to refuse tender and service if their patrons do not worship the image of the beast.

 

[jasonc]

I am not sure about this.
Perhaps we are meant to be watchful via God's Holy Spirit and also look for the signs of the times.
This is a difficult one for me.
And if buying and selling would be involved, I think that we must consider all that is done with our money.
Which stores take our tender?
And are they ethical in their business practices? Would it sadden thee Lord to see us buying or selling there?

if I was a post or mid tribber why then have savings? a job?

Never the less, that is not what this passage we are discussing would refer to.
We are to "examine all things."
Perhaps discussing varying points is a really good idea.

 

[Sinthesis]

Let me give you something to consider. Stop for a moment and consider the recent laws that Indiana passed and signed into law, as well as the laws the Arkansas and others have attempted to pass in the name of religious freedom. They are laws that are designed to protect these "Christian" businesses from being sued for openly discriminatory practices. The law in effect grants the "Christian" business the right to buy and sell their goods or services to whom they will, and unless you worship the image of their god, then the beast has made it legal for them to refuse tender and service if their patrons do not worship the image of the beast.

Nice analogy.

 

[Deborah13]

Let me give you something to consider. Stop for a moment and consider the recent laws that Indiana passed and signed into law, as well as the laws the Arkansas and others have attempted to pass in the name of religious freedom. They are laws that are designed to protect these "Christian" businesses from being sued for openly discriminatory practices. The law in effect grants the "Christian" business the right to buy and sell their goods or services to whom they will, and unless you worship the image of their god, then the beast has made it legal for them to refuse tender and service if their patrons do not worship the image of the beast.

That is just so wrong. I don't understand how you could say this.

 

[gr8grace3]

Let me give you something to consider. Stop for a moment and consider the recent laws that Indiana passed and signed into law, as well as the laws the Arkansas and others have attempted to pass in the name of religious freedom. They are laws that are designed to protect these "Christian" businesses from being sued for openly discriminatory practices. The law in effect grants the "Christian" business the right to buy and sell their goods or services to whom they will, and unless you worship the image of their god, then the beast has made it legal for them to refuse tender and service if their patrons do not worship the image of the beast.

This is so true. We never stop and think about how our "good causes" can turn around and bite us in the butt.

The only thing we are asking for is to get smoking off of airplanes, it is just so bad on planes....................

 

[gracenote]

I am not from Indiana, and I haven't learned enough about the upset over those laws to address this issue completely.
That being said, I don't feel the Lord would have wanted anybody excluded from chances to find Christ.
That's just my personal opinion.
Do I want people to come to know Christ? YES.
How can anybody do this who is exclusionary or overly fussy about which people come to their store?
Discriminatory practices existed in the south for a very long time, and most people descended from slaves became Christians. If that wasn't persecution, then I don't know what we'd call it.
Love, not hate, brings people into the fold.
Just sayin'

 

[Deborah13]

How can anybody do this who is exclusionary or overly fussy about which people come to their store?

Is it overly fussy to refuse to take photographs of a gay wedding ceremony, kissing, etc. and to refuse to take part in the celebration of an unholy union?

 

[gracenote]

Is it overly fussy to refuse to take photographs of a gay wedding ceremony, kissing, etc. and to refuse to take part in the celebration of an unholy union?

I think there's a way of politely refusing to be the photographer or wedding planner, if this will not fit with one's belief in Christ.
Besides, there must be loads of LGBT wedding planners/bakeries/florists/photographers, whereas there might, in some areas, be but one hardware store for many miles, or only one grocery store.
this may seem arguably twisting your point, but I think it begs consideration.

 

[ezrider]

Is it overly fussy to refuse to take photographs of a gay wedding ceremony, kissing, etc. and to refuse to take part in the celebration of an unholy union?

Short answer: YES.

Why do you continue to glory in sin and dead works? Have you soon forgotten the Love of Christ that worketh in you? Whom shall the Lord condemn, the gay to whom service was refused in an act of self righteousness? Or the self righteous hypocrite who prays before the idol that hangs upon his wall; the image of a man hanging upon a cross.

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Tell me, where is the overly fussy found in that scripture?

 

[Deborah13]

I think there's a way of politely refusing to be the photographer or wedding planner, if this will not fit with one's belief in Christ.
Besides, there must be loads of LGBT wedding planners/bakeries/florists/photographers, whereas there might, in some areas, be but one hardware store for many miles, or only one grocery store.
this may seem arguably twisting your point, but I think it begs consideration.

And in the past two yrs. business owners, a bakery in Denver, a photographer in N.M or AZ. etc. who politely refused these wedding services and even gave the gay couples the names, etc. of businesses who would serve them, where sued in court and forced either to participate in gay unions or stop providing that service to Anyone.
The baker in Denver can no longer sell any wedding cakes, the photographer can no longer sell their service at weddings.

 

[gracenote]

Um...not to seem like a stinker, but we started out with
"antichrist in 5 verses."
Now we've lapsed into another discussion entirely.
To clarify my point prior to trying to shift the direction back into the 5 verses, etc.---
I believe Jesus Himself would not refuse to serve anybody, and would not wish us to either.
Love doesn't lie, and neither does it grieve others.
we must allow that others be saved in God's own timing for them.
I once sinned in many different ways, yet am redeemed!
I am like the song, "Amazing Grace"--a wretch.
Had He not been longsuffering and patient for my sake, I might never have gotten out of the old path and onto my Christian walk.
Galatians 5:22
And tho' I cannot say that I would have agreed with every last thing our brother, ezrider has said in another thread, here I do see his point.
When somebody requires the Savior most of all, and we who are here still in fleshly bodies, and are to represent the Lamb to them simply shut our minds and refuse to do as Jesus SAID that we are to do---well, what is He to think?
Do I believe all LGBT people to be too far from redemption in order that He save them?
NO.
I think of that thief who died beside Christ, on a separate cross. Both died via the same means. Last minute, the Lord saved that man. His mercy!
We are to show mercy, my dear sis in Christ. Mercy, loving kindness, long suffering, grace, and above all God's Peace.
We are Jesus' representatives here on earth. if they believe themselves outside His love or the possibility of redemption, how many will suffer needlessly by not knowing how He loves us all?
God's peace through Christ to you

 

[Deborah13]

Short answer: YES.

Why do you continue to glory in sin and dead works? Have you soon forgotten the Love of Christ that worketh in you? Whom shall the Lord condemn, the gay to whom service was refused in an act of self righteousness? Or the self righteous hypocrite who prays before the idol that hangs upon his wall; the image of a man hanging upon a cross.

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Tell me, where is the overly fussy found in that scripture?

You tell me where that scripture says that it is loving to take part in your neighbors sin. Then you might have a scripture that justifies your stance.
Paul says just the opposite.

 

[ezrider]

You tell me where that scripture says that it is loving to take part in your neighbors sin. Then you might have a scripture that justifies your stance.
Paul says just the opposite.

Do you look for a law that you might live by? Or have you chosen to live by Faith?

 

[gr8grace3]

And in the past two yrs. business owners, a bakery in Denver, a photographer in N.M or AZ. etc. who politely refused these wedding services and even gave the gay couples the names, etc. of businesses who would serve them, where sued in court and forced either to participate in gay unions or stop providing that service to Anyone.
The baker in Denver can no longer sell any wedding cakes, the photographer can no longer sell their service at weddings.

I wish we could just go back to,"We reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE."

As Christians operating in the free market, we need to use our heads because we are the first to be "dumped on."

If I sell a cake to someone who I know is drinking to much, am I participating in his sin?
If I take pictures of 2 unbelievers who get married by the justice of the peace and I know that they are having premarital sex. Am I participating in their sin? In fact, I should be there, I may have a chance to witness the Gospel to them.

This is the way the world works. If we want to refuse service to someone because we are a Christian. We better be prepared to be refused service because we are Christians.

 

[turnorburn]

tob

 

[Deborah13]

 

[john darling]

I am not sure about this.
Perhaps we are meant to be watchful via God's Holy Spirit and also look for the signs of the times.
This is a difficult one for me.
And if buying and selling would be involved, I think that we must consider all that is done with our money.

Yup. Buying and selling is definitely a part of looking at the "signs of the times", because prophecy says the AC will use a mark, which purpose is to control buying and selling, to turn people away from God.

There have been lots of declarations and somewhat unsatisfying results over the years with people making
claims about just what the Mark of the Beast will be. Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence to indicate that microchip implants will become the Mark of the Beast. The prophecy says the AC will cause the world to receive this Mark. Perhaps a clue to the AC's identity could be to look at any prominant political or financial persoanlities who are pushing this microchip thing, though it's probably still too early to use that as any kind of reliable guide at the moment since most banks and financial institutions around the world are promoting a move toward this new cashless system.

It may be that the trail will be so diluted with various self interests that it would be impossible to follow back to any one person who seemed to have a particularly strong interest in seeing it succeed.

I still think the most reliable way to know the identity of the AC is to watch for whoever will broker the deal with the Jews to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.