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The identity of the antichrist in 5 verses

turnorburn said:
If a man you met on the street said to you "Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is dangerous" would you say that that man had the spirit of antichrist?

tob
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To be inline with todays thinking i would say yes

To be in line with Scripture i would say no
If a man you met on the street said to you " Your Jesus is not the Son of God." He did was not God in the flesh..."would you say that that man had the spirit of antichrist?
Yup
 
john darling said:
The purpose of the AC's Mark will be to control buying and selling. This makes perfect sense in light of the world's attitude in general that "money makes the world go round". I asked you, in my previous post, if you'd ever asked yourself, "why will the AC use buying and selling as the dividing line"? If you try to imagine what it'd be like to suddenly not have money to trust for your material provision, I think the answer becomes obvious, but I'm still curious to hear your answer to this question.
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'Trusting in money' is still 'trusting in money' no matter the medium of exchange. Yet one doesn't necessarily put their faith in money just by using it. Consider:

Mat 13:44 - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.​

The warning against a mark of the beast determining who can buy or sell is the prophesy of a distorted market rather than fair market. There are many different markets. The warning is specific to one.
 
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

It didn't work out for him..

tob
 
turnorburn said:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

It didn't work out for him..

tob
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Sounds dangerous.:wink
 
Deborah13 said:
Look at what you are saying. You have determined in your own mind that the mark is a microchip in your hand. The Bible says no such thing. You are adding your own imaginings to the word of God.
I remember the days when Christians were trying to understand Rev. were saying that a CCard was the mark of the beast. Obviously not.
I think you have a very carnal view of spiritual things.
I suggest that you go to OT scripture and find where God instructs His children to keep His laws between their eyes and on their arm and compare that to the Rev. mark.
Then I suggest comparing the scripture in the NT about having the law of God written on our hearts and on our minds and compare that to the Rev. mark.
If you still believe the mark on the forehead or hand is some kind of physical tender, then I think you have missed the spiritual signigance of the scripture.

I don't have to try to imagine this scenario, I have actually been there and had three children to feed. I tell you Again, I would not reject my Savior for any reason. So it someone were to say to me that I had to reject my God and worship some lawless man, in order to work, no I would not do that. That would be idolatry. There have always been people who are willing to worship money and reject God. The rich man in the Gospels comes to mind.

I not sure how much more plainly I could state my position than I did in my previous post. I am not willing to reject my God for mammon, is that plain enough for you?

It's obviously a diversion for you. You are waiting for the new technology and are so sure that not getting a microchip in your hand will save you.
God's answer to eating is honest working. If I were you I'd be much more concerned about not having work. Not being able to sell ones labor in order to buy. Or not being able to have a business to sell ones produce of their labor. Instead you are being fooled into believing that God cares about what kind of tender one buys and sells with.
Jesus certainly wasn't concerned about it. He said it had nothing to do with anything when it came to giving to God what is God's. Our minds and our hearts.

I'm not willing to put in kind of tender into my body or any kind of tracking device or ID chip, or anything else. But it isn't because I believe it would be a sin to do so. Anymore than it's a sin to use any other kind of tender.
If one does something unGodly in order to obtain tender, that something is the sin. Such as dealing drugs, or fraud, etc. or worshiping an idol, such as Caesar. One doesn't do this by accident or unknowingly.

I think you are being deceived. That final choice, line in the sand, is made by each individual believer and has been going on since the beginning of time as we know it. If you think God has been allowing believers to play games with Him of thousands of years you don't have the same view of God that I do. :nonono
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To your response, Deborah13, I would have to say a rousing
:amen
 
Deborah13 said:
Look at what you are saying. You have determined in your own mind that the mark is a microchip in your hand. The Bible says no such thing. You are adding your own imaginings to the word of God.
I remember the days when Christians were trying to understand Rev. were saying that a CCard was the mark of the beast. Obviously not.
I think you have a very carnal view of spiritual things.
I suggest that you go to OT scripture and find where God instructs His children to keep His laws between their eyes and on their arm and compare that to the Rev. mark.
Then I suggest comparing the scripture in the NT about having the law of God written on our hearts and on our minds and compare that to the Rev. mark.
If you still believe the mark on the forehead or hand is some kind of physical tender, then I think you have missed the spiritual signigance of the scripture.

I don't have to try to imagine this scenario, I have actually been there and had three children to feed. I tell you Again, I would not reject my Savior for any reason. So it someone were to say to me that I had to reject my God and worship some lawless man, in order to work, no I would not do that. That would be idolatry. There have always been people who are willing to worship money and reject God. The rich man in the Gospels comes to mind.

I not sure how much more plainly I could state my position than I did in my previous post. I am not willing to reject my God for mammon, is that plain enough for you?

It's obviously a diversion for you. You are waiting for the new technology and are so sure that not getting a microchip in your hand will save you.
God's answer to eating is honest working. If I were you I'd be much more concerned about not having work. Not being able to sell ones labor in order to buy. Or not being able to have a business to sell ones produce of their labor. Instead you are being fooled into believing that God cares about what kind of tender one buys and sells with.
Jesus certainly wasn't concerned about it. He said it had nothing to do with anything when it came to giving to God what is God's. Our minds and our hearts.

I'm not willing to put in kind of tender into my body or any kind of tracking device or ID chip, or anything else. But it isn't because I believe it would be a sin to do so. Anymore than it's a sin to use any other kind of tender.
If one does something unGodly in order to obtain tender, that something is the sin. Such as dealing drugs, or fraud, etc. or worshiping an idol, such as Caesar. One doesn't do this by accident or unknowingly.

I think you are being deceived. That final choice, line in the sand, is made by each individual believer and has been going on since the beginning of time as we know it. If you think God has been allowing believers to play games with Him of thousands of years you don't have the same view of God that I do. :nonono
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If it isn't a chip or something along that order what would it be, would the cashier at the market just look at you and say no problem your good to go, my mind tells me that you have $50.00 in your account, or an employer that say's sure we'll hire you your one of us?

tob
 
Sinthesis said:
What is your point? I haven't denied the Trinity. Now it seems you are confusing God the Father with God the Son.
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Oh no, now we have multiple Gods? He who has the Spirit already has the Father and the Son. There is nothing to confuse here.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Might I suggest some quiet meditation time on the entire chapter of John 14.
 
turnorburn said:
If it isn't a chip or something along that order what would it be, would the cashier at the market just look at you and say no problem your good to go, my mind tells me that you have $50.00 in your account, or an employer that say's sure we'll hire you your one of us?

tob
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I believe...
It would be you giving your mind and your hand/arm/heart to serve another. Instead of being sealed by the Holy Spirit being sealed into a covenant with someone/something besides our Lord. One cannot serve two masters. We make choices as to who we will serve. Just like the rich man in the Gospels chose mammon over serving the Lord.

Persecution is obviously real and has brought harm to an untold numbers. I don't see that ending until the Lord returns.
 
TEFILLIN
Tefillin are two small black boxes, each containing specific passages from the Torah, that Orthodox Jewish males over the age of thirteen traditionally wear during prayer services. Only one of the two boxes is placed on the forehead, while the other, which is placed on the arm, is donned first. The wearing of tefillin is considered a mitzvah, or "good deed," and the instructions on wearing them are found in Proverbs 6: 20,21, which states, "Keep my son the Mitzvot of your father and do not abandon the Torah of your mother; Tie them upon you heart always, don them upon your throat." The practice of wearing tefillin is most prominent among Orthodox Jews.

http://people.opposingviews.com/orthodox-jews-wear-foreheads-5902.html
 
reba said:
TEFILLIN
Tefillin are two small black boxes, each containing specific passages from the Torah, that Orthodox Jewish males over the age of thirteen traditionally wear during prayer services. Only one of the two boxes is placed on the forehead, while the other, which is placed on the arm, is donned first. The wearing of tefillin is considered a mitzvah, or "good deed," and the instructions on wearing them are found in Proverbs 6: 20,21, which states, "Keep my son the Mitzvot of your father and do not abandon the Torah of your mother; Tie them upon you heart always, don them upon your throat." The practice of wearing tefillin is most prominent among Orthodox Jews.

http://people.opposingviews.com/orthodox-jews-wear-foreheads-5902.html
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:biggrin
 
gracenote said:
My one problem with this would be that the one Tefillin gets worn upon the ARM, and never the actual hand.
Doesn't scripture say "forehead" and "hand"?
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Hi Grace,

I think Deborah and Reba would probably consider the difference between hand and forearm a technicality in this case. However, this thing about wearing boxes on the hand/arm/forehead doesn't really address the spiritual significance of why the Mark is described as controlling the use of buying and selling.

A few posts ago I listed an example of Barclays bank instituting a glove with a microchip in it, which is linked to the wearer's electronic bank account. You wave your hand in front of a scanner, the chip in the glove is scanned and the goods are paid for. I compared this to what the prophecy says about using a "Mark" on the hand to buy/sell, and Deborah responds with, "so what". It's like a cop standing in front of a fireworks factory on fire and trying to tell the gathering crowd that there's "nothing to see here". It strains incredulity. Jesus faced a similar frustration. He said, "having eyes they see not and having ears they hear not..." (Mt 13:14-15). Something is stopping her (and many others) from seeing the simple, plain truth in front of her eyes.

I believe that "something" is encapsulated in this quote; “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” Our dependence on money is exactly the reason why the AC will use buying/selling as his Mark of loyalty.
 
Deborah13 said:
One cannot serve two masters. We make choices as to who we will serve. Just like the rich man in the Gospels chose mammon over serving the Lord.
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Hi deborah,

Very true, and I'm glad you mentioned this teaching, though I think we have very different interpretations. Here is what Jesus said:

"MT 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

"Mammon" is a term used to describe money and the things money can buy. God is one master and money (and the things money can buy) is the other master. He says we will love one and hate the other. Why should we work to get more of something we hate? Most people in the world don't particularly like their jobs, but they do them anyway because they believe they need money to pay the bills etc. This is commonly referred to as the "rat race". People will spend their lives making themselves miserable doing jobs they hate because of their dependence on money.

But Jesus changed all that. He said our new job is to seek God's kingdom of Heaven as our first priority. "Come to me all you who labor and I will give you rest". Working for God is restful in comparison to the rat race, not because Christians don't work hard, but because Christians have something more meaningful to work for than simply "paying the bills". Consider the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven". In heaven they don't only help one another if they receive payment for it. They just work for the love of God and their neighbor.

Jesus told us to consider the birds, precisely because they do not work for money, and yet God cares for them. He said the same thing about flowers, how they don't work for money and yet God clothes them. He said that the wisdom he was offering in these teachings was even better than that of Solomon, with all his wealth.

He goes on to say that all the world seeks after these material things, but that we should not be like them (Mt 6:31-32). Shortly after teaching his followers about these principles, he decided to test them on it, so he sent them out into the world commanding them to take nothing for their journey; no money, no extra clothes, not even shoes! (Luke 10) He wanted them to see that, as laborers in his kingdom, God would care for them as opposed to money caring for them.

Later, in Luke 22:35 Jesus references this same time period and says, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing"? And his disciples replied, "nothing".

Sure, the disciples used money at various points (Jesus told them to sell what they have and apparently they had a money bag which they used to help the poor), but there is a difference between being "in the world" and being "of the world." It's a difference in motivation. Jesus said that we should not even let a basic necessity like food become the motivation for why we help one another. (John 6:27)

Love vs Mammon. This theme is present all throughout the NT. Most people know about the rich young ruler being told to forsake all his wealth. It's commonly taught that materialism was a private, personal problem specific to that one person, but people only accept this teaching because it conveniently excuses their own issues with materialism.

Jesus taught "forsaking all" as a general principle in his kingdom. See luke 14:33. The Christians in Acts lived by similar standards; they forsook private ownership, put all their material goods together into a common purse, and then used it to not only tend to each person "as they had need", but to go on to "turn the world upside down" through social and evangelical programs.

This is the answer to the Mark of the Beast. The AC cannot control people who trust God to provide for them rather than his system of buying/selling.
 
One way to approach the endtimes idea of buying and selling:

Moses' law specified what was acceptable for temple sacrifice. Buying and selling is what enabled the faithful to present what was legally acceptable. This legalistic religious requirement is what the money changers had corrupted. Antichrist, through Roman appeasers in the Judean leadership, assumed control over this temple enterprise, which left the otherwise temple faithful unable to fulfill their inherited religious responsibilities under Moses' law unless they thought or acted like the appeasers.:horse:twocents
 
gracenote said:
My one problem with this would be that the one Tefillin gets worn upon the ARM, and never the actual hand.
Doesn't scripture say "forehead" and "hand"?
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its in the torah, it references what one does with ones mind, one does with one's hand. sin in the mind, sin with the hand.
 
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