The Image of Christ

[ezrider]

The book of Deuteronomy is a special book to me. The Bible made me aware of the man named Jesus, the gospels gave me the knowledge of the words that he spoke, and declared to me the works that he performed; and I believed. But it was through the book of Deuteronomy that the Lord revealed to me the man Jesus.

reba posted a verse that stands out to me:
Deuteronomy 4:12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire:ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

The Lord spoke, they heard the voice of the word, yet they saw no image. Yet the book of Deuteronomy instructed me in whose voice to hear.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus was that prophet whom the Lord raised up, and it is the words that the Lord put into his mouth, the voice of the word, that we are commanded to hear. When I read the gospels, I hear the voice of those words speak to my heart, yet I saw no similitude.

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Isaiah 53:1-2 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

When I read the gospels, it is apparent to me that Jesus never sought adoration, he even shunned it; he always commanded that they should worship God. When he performed miracles, the people praised God, and gave glory to God. When I read these versus in the book of Deuteronomy, I often wonder if the church has not in fact taken the image of the man Jesus, and have made that image their God. Yet the image of the man Jesus is that of a humble servant, and a brother. When I read the red letters, I hear the voice of those words, and that voice is spirit; I see no similitude, but only the voice of the Word.

John 4: 19-24 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what:we know what we worship:for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The quote from above is from my post in the Bible study thread on the book of Deuteronomy. I did not think any further conversation on this particular topic belonged in that thread, so I have decided to share my comments in it own thread. I only ask that it be read with patience and without jumping to any conclusions

 

[ezrider]

In that post I postulated “when I read these versus in the book of Deuteronomy, I often wonder if the church has not in fact taken the image of the man Jesus, and have made that image their God?” Now just to be clear, the image I am speaking of is not that of a picture or a painting, a cross or a statue; these things are superficial. The image I am referring to is the image we hold in our hearts. When we think of God, what image comes to mind? Is it the image of the man Jesus hung on a cross? And if so, then have we not taken the image of a man and made him our God? But God is a Spirit, and must be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth.

The church has taken the image of the man Jesus, who spoke the Word of God, and who was crucified for our sins, and have made that image into their God. They bring the people to the alter where they accept the sacrifice of Jesus for the redemption of sins, and then take the image of their savior, a dead man on a cross, and make him their God. The church demands obedience to the flesh while you wait for your Lord’s return; but the return of the Lord that the church would teach you is that of the Son of Man, and so you wait for your image of God to return.

But the image of the Son of Man, the man Jesus was not one of glory, but of humility. The image of the man Jesus was that of a brother, and that of a humble servant. The man Jesus never sought adoration, and made every attempt to avoid it. The man Jesus worshiped the Father, and taught other men to do so to. When the man Jesus performed miracles, all the praise and glory went to God, and he kept none for himself. This is the true image of the man Jesus.

But there are two sides to the cross, while the church binds you to the death of Christ, there is another image of Christ: The image of his resurrection. It is an image that holds no form, and it is Spirit. We are called a new creation in Christ, buried with him in his crucifixion, and yet made alive by his resurrection. A new living creature, born again as a living Spirit, yet concealed behind the outer mask that would reveal our death. In the image of His resurrection, we walk by Faith while Christ is formed in us. (Gal 4:19)

We were created in the image of God, and we are made alive in the image of Christ, an image with no form, a living Spirit; and we are formed in the image of Christ. But if you hear the Words of Jesus, and follow the Commandments of God, then you would see that you have become the image of Christ borne in the flesh, after the image of a man, in the image of a brother, and in the image of a humble servant; a living Spirit and a son of God. If I were to think on what image the church teaches concerning his return, then I suppose I might just want to look in a mirror.

The Jews looked for the return of Elijah, but it was John the Baptist who came in the Spirit of Elijah; and as Jesus added, those with an ear let them hear what the spirit saith unto you. The Christians look for the return of a man, a man to be their king; but he too comes in the Spirit for those who walk in Faith.

The church would keep you bound to obedience in the face of sin awaiting the return of their God, in the image of a man, and bound to the death of Christ. Jesus condemned the Pharisees when he said you don’t enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, and you are preventing those who would enter; the same message might stand for the church today. As it says in the book Corinthians, as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Many people wonder about the beast of Revelations 13, and fear the mark of the beast? But the scripture says that all receive the mark, both free and bond, rich and poor. But here is wisdom, the mark bears an image, and it is the image of a man, for we have all been marked by the Crucifixion of Christ, and we all bear in our bodies the image of His death. But those who are borne of the Spirit, not only bear the image of the death of Christ by their flesh, but also the image of the resurrection in Christ by their Spirit.

I have often wondered who it was John was speaking to in Revelations 22 when he fell down to worship at his feet, and was told see though do it not, for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets.

 

[agua.]

Wow controversial stuff Ezirider. I'm a little confused though because everyone doesn't receive the mark of the beast.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Are you promoting universalism here maybe i misunderstand ?

 

[ezrider]

Wow controversial stuff Ezirider. I'm a little confused though because everyone doesn't receive the mark of the beast.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Are you promoting universalism here maybe i misunderstand ?

I have no idea what universalism is, so I guess it means nothing to me.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

ALL receive a mark, but not all receive the same mark, and like the parable of the wheat and tares, both marks look the same, so that you can not tell them apart, because both marks bear the image of the death of Christ. Only do the wheat bear in them also the image of the resurrection of Christ, and the wheat worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The wheat do not worship the image of a man.

 

[Deborah13]

I have no idea what universalism is, so I guess it means nothing to me.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

ALL receive a mark, but not all receive the same mark, and like the parable of the wheat and tares, both marks look the same, so that you can not tell them apart, because both marks bear the image of the death of Christ. Only do the wheat bear in them also the image of the resurrection of Christ, and the wheat worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The wheat do not worship the image of a man.

Don't those in the Lamb's Book have a seal or mark given by the Holy Spirit?

 

[ezrider]

Romans 1:1-7
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man..

 

[ezrider]

Romans 6:3-5
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

 

[ezrider]

1 Corinthians 2:9-16
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him:neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ

 

[Deborah13]

The quote from above is from my post in the Bible study thread on the book of Deuteronomy. I did not think any further conversation on this particular topic belonged in that thread, so I have decided to share my comments in it own thread. I only ask that it be read with patience and without jumping to any conclusions

This is A&T, which as you know is for discussion and debate.
So I'm unclear as to what you wish to discuss, you just seem to be posting long pieces of scripture.
I'm wondering if your topic, whatever that may be, belongs in this forum.
Why should it be here?

 

[ezrider]

This is A&T, which as you know is for discussion and debate.
So I'm unclear as to what you wish to discuss, you just seem to be posting long pieces of scripture.
I'm wondering if your topic, whatever that may be, belongs in this forum.
Why should it be here?

I'm sorry Deborah13, the topic is the Image of Christ, the image of his death, and the image of his resurrection. It begs the question if we have been taught to worship the image of a man? By all means, it is open for discussion and debate, that is why I posted it here in A&T: Because it questions the foundation our faith, and the nature of our relationship with God, I could think of no other place it belonged. But maybe this begs a deeper question; we all engage in what seems like endless debate, arguing over one interpretation of scripture or another. And we are happy to debate and participate in the most trivial of things. But why are we so afraid to join in a conversation over the deeper things of God? What seems to keep us from just reading the post and then offering a thoughtful opinion. All conversation does not need to be a debate. In hopes of actually sparking any kind of conversation, I am only posting scripture that gives witness to that which I wrote in my post.

What are your thoughts on what I have written? How do you see the Image of Christ?

 

[Deborah13]

I'm sorry Deborah13, the topic is the Image of Christ, the image of his death, and the image of his resurrection. It begs the question if we have been taught to worship the image of a man? By all means, it is open for discussion and debate, that is why I posted it here in A&T: Because it questions the foundation our faith, and the nature of our relationship with God, I could think of no other place it belonged. But maybe this begs a deeper question; we all engage in what seems like endless debate, arguing over one interpretation of scripture or another. And we are happy to debate and participate in the most trivial of things. But why are we so afraid to join in a conversation over the deeper things of God? What seems to keep us from just reading the post and then offering a thoughtful opinion. All conversation does not need to be a debate. In hopes of actually sparking any kind of conversation, I am only posting scripture that gives witness to that which I wrote in my post.

What are your thoughts on what I have written? How do you see the Image of Christ?

Thanks for defining your topic and that it is here for discussion.
I'm still don't understand what you are getting at. If I did I wouldn't avoid talking about it unless it went somewhere let's just say....too odd.

 

[Gary]

Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man..

the topic is the Image of Christ, the image of his death, and the image of his resurrection. It begs the question if we have been taught to worship the image of a man?

I am only posting scripture that gives witness to that which I wrote in my post.

What are your thoughts on what I have written? How do you see the Image of Christ?

What is the witness you're trying to get others to see?

 

[ezrider]

Thanks for defining your topic and that it is here for discussion.
I'm still don't understand what you are getting at. If I did I wouldn't avoid talking about it unless it went somewhere let's just say....too odd.

Forgive me if I chuckled at a moment of irony, but I wonder how Jesus felt when he had to pull aside his disciples so he could explain it to them? So I will try a condensed version.

The church has led us to the death and crucifixion of Jesus. Our savior who died for our sins. But the church has caused us to commit idolatry. The church would have us worship the image of a man for a God, the church holds up the image of Jesus, a man after the flesh, and have made that image into their God. The church holds you in bondage by obedience to sin, while they promise you that Jesus will return for you, and so you await the second coming, but you are waiting for your God to appear in the image of a man. You are awaiting a false image. God is Spirit.

But we are not called to worship idols, we are called to walk in the image of the resurrection of Christ, a new living creature in the Spirit of Christ. What image of Christ do you hold in your heart?

 

[ezrider]

What is the witness you're trying to get others to see?

While I would desire an honest discussion in this thread, I also desire to waist no time playing games. It seems the witness was self evident to you, because you so easily connected the question about worshiping the image of a man to that of Romans 1:23.

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus is God the Son. He could not be our Savior if He was not God. If Jesus was not God then the Jews would have been correct to have Him crucified. So it is not idolatry to worship Jesus.

 

[Gary]

What is the witness you're trying to get others to see?

While I would desire an honest discussion in this thread, I also desire to waist no time playing games. It seems the witness was self evident to you, because you so easily connected the question about worshiping the image of a man to that of Romans 1:23.

If it was self evident, I wouldn't have asked. And just because one person gets it, doesn't mean everybody does.

 

[Chopper]

Hi there ezrider, you pose an interesting question/comment. You are right in that when we think of Jesus, whether in prayer, or worship, we visualize a human. It probably comes from our study of the Gospels, we see a God/man going about ministering and instructing mankind. I guess it's just natural that we visualize the man Jesus. Sometimes I visualize a Lamb.

So lets start here, because you have an important idea and I'd like to hear more about it....I do at time visualize the image of a man, and a lamb. How do I visualize something totally spiritual. I must confess that in reading Revelation, there are some pretty weird images of half human, half animal, and so on.

So please enlighten me.

 

[Deborah13]

Forgive me if I chuckled at a moment of irony, but I wonder how Jesus felt when he had to pull aside his disciples so he could explain it to them? So I will try a condensed version.

The church has led us to the death and crucifixion of Jesus. Our savior who died for our sins. But the church has caused us to commit idolatry. The church would have us worship the image of a man for a God, the church holds up the image of Jesus, a man after the flesh, and have made that image into their God. The church holds you in bondage by obedience to sin, while they promise you that Jesus will return for you, and so you await the second coming, but you are waiting for your God to appear in the image of a man. You are awaiting a false image. God is Spirit.

But we are not called to worship idols, we are called to walk in the image of the resurrection of Christ, a new living creature in the Spirit of Christ. What image of Christ do you hold in your heart?

I don't know what churches you have attended but I have never been to a church that teaches worshiping an image of a man. Jesus was God come in the flesh.
But frankly unless I am thinking about the crucifixion and resurrection, or receiving communion I don't focus on the man. Or when reading the Word I see what He did as a man and as God.
He is the risen Lord, sitting at the right hand of the Father but I don't focus on that either. When I am praying and worshiping I don't have any image before me at all. I don't visualize anything. I just worship God and I don't separate them Father and Son, in my worship. Should I be more grateful to the Father for sending His Son or the Son for obeying His Father?
I don't except Him to return in any certain way for sure. I like the idea of Him coming as a magnificent King on a white horse and an army of the saints but do I believe that He will? I don't know, so much of Revelation is prophetic imagery. But it would sure be magnificent to see. Like Elijah's chariot of fire.

 

[agua.]

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

ALL receive a mark, but not all receive the same mark, and like the parable of the wheat and tares, both marks look the same, so that you can not tell them apart, because both marks bear the image of the death of Christ. Only do the wheat bear in them also the image of the resurrection of Christ, and the wheat worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The wheat do not worship the image of a man.

Ah ok Ezirider now I get you. Can you tell me how you worship ?

 

[ezrider]

Hi there ezrider, you pose an interesting question/comment. You are right in that when we think of Jesus, whether in prayer, or worship, we visualize a human. It probably comes from our study of the Gospels, we see a God/man going about ministering and instructing mankind. I guess it's just natural that we visualize the man Jesus. Sometimes I visualize a Lamb.

So lets start here, because you have an important idea and I'd like to hear more about it....I do at time visualize the image of a man, and a lamb. How do I visualize something totally spiritual. I must confess that in reading Revelation, there are some pretty weird images of half human, half animal, and so on.

So please enlighten me.

Thanks Chopper. You my friend have asked the correct question: “How do I visualize something that is totally spiritual? And the answer is by other spiritual things by the gift of Faith.

As you will recall, I first proposed the question about worshipping the image of a man in your Bible study on the book of Deuteronomy. It might be good to remind everyone, that to understand where I am coming from, they really should start with my original post.

The book of Deuteronomy is a special book to me. The Bible made me aware of the man named Jesus, the gospels gave me the knowledge of the words that he spoke, and declared to me the works that he performed; and I believed. But it was through the book of Deuteronomy that the Lord revealed to me the man Jesus.

In that study, it stood significant to me the reason why the Lord appeared in a fire.

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire:ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:15-16 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female.

They heard only the voice of the words spoke, and saw no image that they should corrupt themselves. So I ask have we made Jesus a God after the manner of a man? And I contend that it is idolatry to worship the image of the man Jesus as God.

As I quoted above, it was through the book of Deuteronomy that the Lord revealed to me the man Jesus. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 was really quite profound. When I read the words spoken by Jesus, they are like unto the words spoken spoken out of the fire, for it was the Word of God, and it was the voice of a spirit, but the Word came in an image as Isaiah 53:1-2 says; when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

So that brings up a simple point that you make, that you often can not help but think of the man Jesus, and there is nothing wrong thinking about the image of the man Jesus, I think about the image of the man Jesus all the time, in fact the scripture teaches us that we are made in the image of Christ. The Word of God came through the man Jesus, but the image of that man was that of a humble servant, and a brother, lowly and meek, riding upon an ass. When I think of the man Jesus, the image that comes to my mind is that of the servant, not as a God. When I think on the words spoken by Jesus, I hear his voice, and it is spirit. And like the voice heard through the midst of the fire, the voice heard through Jesus bore only the similitude of a humble servant.

Chopper, I will leave it at this for now, and will continue to add onto it as time permits. I hope this helps clarify the foundation of the premiss. I look forward to your honest questions, may they shepherd my thoughts to offer any clarity.

I have often wondered in 1 Peter 2:1-12, how Christ was the stone the builders rejected, and that he was a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. In what ways could we consider Jesus to be a stone of stumbling for us. I think I understand now.