The Kingdom Of Heaven

[eddif]

Also, to add to this, we really just see the different words used by different people describing the same event - in context.

The Ox reference is used in different contexts - like an analogy. There is a significant difference between analogy and different words used.

Post #14 must have scared folks into remembering a website that almost died over the kingdom discussion.

If you really read 14 you can read the two can be:
1 tied together into one as ox=preacher
2 Separated creating two gospels that have one true and one that is false.
3 used to understand parable teaching springing from Isaiah 6

Do I think there is just one correct kingdom. Yes.

What is the harm in learning.

eddif

 

[Nathan]

Post #14 must have scared folks into remembering a website that almost died over the kingdom discussion.

If you really read 14 you can read the two can be:
1 tied together into one as ox=preacher
2 Separated creating two gospels that have one true and one that is false.
3 used to understand parable teaching springing from Isaiah 6

Do I think there is just one correct kingdom. Yes.

What is the harm in learning.

eddif

No harm in learning.

I think I may see how you are relating the ox and kingdom. Kind of.

Why not lay it out for us? I understand if you don't want to, if you have had a bad experience in doing so before?

Was there another website you used to visit that got torn in two because you expounded? I've found this website to be pretty good about hearing thoughts - even if things do get a little heated sometimes.

 

[Brock]

In some places in scripture, it speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven. In other places, it speaks of the Kingdom of God...

This strikes me as if it is talking about different things. I haven't studied it or anything, it just occurred to me so I thought I'd ask. Is it talking about different things?

When I read the bible today Paul was talking about heaven and he said that's where Jesus lives Jesus is God heaven is called the kingdom of heaven if Jesus lives in heaven then heaven is the kingdom of God so your answer is there is no difference. Have a nice day love you God bless

 

[dirtfarmer]

nothing...

teaching 2 Kingdoms is division .. a them and us type of theology.. O well the Scriptures speak for themselves... But some guy some place has a 'new key' to understanding so like silly women 2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

There is only one kingdom but there is the gospel of the kingdom and there is the gospel of the grace of God. Salvation has always been by faith. There was a time when there was no law and in that time sin was not imputed to man but man still died. Law came along and man was still saved by faith but because there was law, sin was imputed to man. Jesus Christ came in the flesh, fulfilled the law and made it obsolete, but man was still saved by faith.

In scripture there is a "them", Jews, and a "us", Gentiles. Since Christ was crucified there are 3 peoples, Jew, Gentile, and Saint. Jews are God's chosen people that are looking for an earthly kingdom, Gentile or heathen, unless salvation comes to them they will spend eternity in the lake of fire, and Saint(bride) the body of Christ that will be joint-heirs with him.

 

[eddif]

No harm in learning.

I think I may see how you are relating the ox and kingdom. Kind of.

Why not lay it out for us? I understand if you don't want to, if you have had a bad experience in doing so before?

Was there another website you used to visit that got torn in two because you expounded? I've found this website to be pretty good about hearing thoughts - even if things do get a little heated sometimes.

There may be a harm somewhere. Notice some are not quoting scripture at all but insisting there is no difference.

I will wait on permission to continue. The administration has entrenched on their stand. To allow me to continue is their call.

Personally I have never put things together till now (never done any thing on another website). I did finally do a search and found a war about the issue. If suddenly I have become the enemy I understand. I don't seek a following, and hope to stay right here in good status,

Reba has fought to understand my use of symbolism ( types, shadows, parables, differing covenants, one new man etc.).
As far as I know I have not gone over the edge. But I realize there is an edge, and a person may not realize when he gets there. I realize some start to scream (over the edge - over the edge.....). Administration has to make decisions. No plucking out the tares till the end. I will try and show tares by pointing at them. I will not be the one that stops / unsettled things before the harvest,

Oh well.

eddif

 

[Douglas Summers]

There is no difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of heaven is the Kingdom of God because its God's Kingdom, and the Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven because heaven is Gods Kingdom. It cannot be more simple.

God does not make anything complicated but man likes to complicate it.

If God did not want to complicate things, why did He use two different terms when one would have been sufficient? Because they have two different meanings....not two different doctrines. The arrogance and pride of some of your rebuttals is not of a born again believer.

Christ in us
Douglas Summers

 

[Rob Cuse]

Let love abound. Let us all love one another as Christ has. Differences and perspectives are what makes us unique. But never, never, ever let them be the chain that breaks our bond. We need each other. To God be the glory in everything. Thank you all for the intelligent discussion, as it shows the hunger and thirst for knowledge. May the Holy Spirit guide and continually teach us.

 

[reba]

I will wait on permission to continue. The administration has entrenched on their stand. To allow me to continue is their call.

when staff post in threads as a member would our posts are as subject to scrutiny as any other... Most of Staff will make note in some way if their post is one of moderating..
Example Back to topic .. mod hat on.... Do not reply to this post .. drop the snarks... . or we post in red etc..
Please feel free to express your self ... the guidelines are the ToS Your respect to CFnet is appreciated

 

[Nathan]

There may be a harm somewhere. Notice some are not quoting scripture at all but insisting there is no difference.

I will wait on permission to continue. The administration has entrenched on their stand. To allow me to continue is their call.

Personally I have never put things together till now (never done any thing on another website). I did finally do a search and found a war about the issue. If suddenly I have become the enemy I understand. I don't seek a following, and hope to stay right here in good status,

Reba has fought to understand my use of symbolism ( types, shadows, parables, differing covenants, one new man etc.).
As far as I know I have not gone over the edge. But I realize there is an edge, and a person may not realize when he gets there. I realize some start to scream (over the edge - over the edge.....). Administration has to make decisions. No plucking out the tares till the end. I will try and show tares by pointing at them. I will not be the one that stops / unsettled things before the harvest,

Oh well.

eddif

Honestly, this may sound very 'un-Christian', I am not sure we have to quote passages in the Bible to understand the issue. Not saying it's not good to, just saying a little reasoning can go a long ways also.

I guess I'm not understanding the admin thing. I'll stay out of that if there is something going on. But I don't know how it would be plucking out tares to go further in seeing the difference between two words for the kingdom?

Sometimes I find we think others are upset when they really are not. If personal conflict is left out of a topic, then generally discussions can flow.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the post of mine where the kingdom is mentioned, but not defined by 'of heaven' or 'of God'.

 

[Nathan]

I guess I should have said 'quote any more' passages.

 

[eddif]

Honestly, this may sound very 'un-Christian', I am not sure we have to quote passages in the Bible to understand the issue. Not saying it's not good to, just saying a little reasoning can go a long ways also.

I guess I'm not understanding the admin thing. I'll stay out of that if there is something going on. But I don't know how it would be plucking out tares to go further in seeing the difference between two words for the kingdom?

Sometimes I find we think others are upset when they really are not. If personal conflict is left out of a topic, then generally discussions can flow.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the post of mine where the kingdom is mentioned, but not defined by 'of heaven' or 'of God'.

Actually it is not just the words. There is much more than words difference in Matthew 5 and Luke 6.

I have about decided questions may work better at times for the kingdom issue.

Which scripture is the preacher ?
Which scripture is the ox?

How can you tell?

Ultimately it does not matter, but why so many references to:
Seeds, sheep, goats, kidneys, hearts, livers, birds, trees, etc?

Why not just tell it like it is?

eddif

 

[Nathan]

So let's back up and view this from the really big perspective. We know there are two different words used to describe "the kingdom". We know that often it's just called the kingdom. And at least once it's called the kingdom of the Son.

So, the original question, is if all these are different things. Edward did you mean to ask if they were different kingdoms, or different aspects of the same kingdom?

If these are different kingdoms, then would that not mean there would be different kings? Does a king have more than one kingdom?

It would make much more sense to look at it as different aspects. Which would be interesting to consider. Which means we could look into the thought process of the person recording the events, and words used, by Jesus.

There is a reason why things are written different.

 

[Free]

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

There is only one kingdom but there is the gospel of the kingdom and there is the gospel of the grace of God. Salvation has always been by faith. There was a time when there was no law and in that time sin was not imputed to man but man still died. Law came along and man was still saved by faith but because there was law, sin was imputed to man. Jesus Christ came in the flesh, fulfilled the law and made it obsolete, but man was still saved by faith.

In scripture there is a "them", Jews, and a "us", Gentiles. Since Christ was crucified there are 3 peoples, Jew, Gentile, and Saint. Jews are God's chosen people that are looking for an earthly kingdom, Gentile or heathen, unless salvation comes to them they will spend eternity in the lake of fire, and Saint(bride) the body of Christ that will be joint-heirs with him.

There is only one Gospel:

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

In Christ there is no "us" and "them":

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. (ESV)


It is worth noting that so far there has been no scriptural reason given for a difference between "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven," and a solid scriptural reason given as to them having the same meaning and referring to the same thing.

 

[Nathan]

Actually it is not just the words. There is much more than words difference in Matthew 5 and Luke 6.

I have about decided questions may work better at times for the kingdom issue.

Which scripture is the preacher ?
Which scripture is the ox?

How can you tell?

Ultimately it does not matter, but why so many references to:
Seeds, sheep, goats, kidneys, hearts, livers, birds, trees, etc?

Why not just tell it like it is?

eddif

If your speaking of Jesus, then there is a good reason why things were spoken metaphorically. You already alluded to it in Isaiah 6.

When it comes to the Apostles/disciples, it makes no sense because the time for veiling was over. No more need for the truth to be spoken in metaphors. Rather, the teaching turned to analogies to better help the reader to understand. The teachers of truth tried to make every possible way for young and old, rich and poor, learned and unlearned, all to understand the things of God. We should too.

Romans 16:25 (ESV) 25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

Romans 16:26 (ESV) 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--

Some might just pass over this passage and go with the age old thinking that Paul was just talking about the Gospel. However, Paul specifically calls out the Gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ. Two separate things, both reveled now, and also(big key to get) understood through the prophetic writings - the 'Old Testament'.

The whole reason for things being kept secret and hidden was simply for salvation to come to the Gentiles. Now that it has, there is no more mystery or hidden things kept from us by God about Himself. As in, if something was taught, then God wants us to know about it now. This is the Spirits job.

They only hidden and mystical things we see are those which we actually do not want to see or hear about. Sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not.

 

[dirtfarmer]

There is only one Gospel:

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

In Christ there is no "us" and "them":

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. (ESV)


It is worth noting that so far there has been no scriptural reason given for a difference between "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven," and a solid scriptural reason given as to them having the same meaning and referring to the same thing.

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Again I refer to Galatians 2:7," But contrariwise when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter." Can you explain the difference between "the gospel of the uncircumcision" and "the gospel of the circumcision"?

 

[Edward]

So let's back up and view this from the really big perspective. We know there are two different words used to describe "the kingdom". We know that often it's just called the kingdom. And at least once it's called the kingdom of the Son.

So, the original question, is if all these are different things. Edward did you mean to ask if they were different kingdoms, or different aspects of the same kingdom?

If these are different kingdoms, then would that not mean there would be different kings? Does a king have more than one kingdom?

It would make much more sense to look at it as different aspects. Which would be interesting to consider. Which means we could look into the thought process of the person recording the events, and words used, by Jesus.

There is a reason why things are written different.

But of course I was talking about different aspects of the same kingdom, Brother. There is only one kingdom. One Spirit, one faith, one body...One Jesus Christ.

And while the gospel is very simple, many aspects of the Kingdom of God are not so simple. The mysteries of God are indeed complex and many. The different terminology used in scripture are not always talking about the same things. I wondered if this was one of those cases.

 

[Free]

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Again I refer to Galatians 2:7," But contrariwise when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter." Can you explain the difference between "the gospel of the uncircumcision" and "the gospel of the circumcision"?

First, we know from the passage I posted in Gal. 1 that there is only one gospel. For Paul to now say that there are two would be contradictory. Second, here is how the verse is to be understood:

Gal 2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (ESV)

And that is then reaffirmed by the that follows it:

Gal 2:8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), (ESV)

It is about whom they are each teaching to, not about the content of what they teach.

 

[Nathan]

But of course I was talking about different aspects of the same kingdom, Brother. There is only one kingdom. One Spirit, one faith, one body...One Jesus Christ.

And while the gospel is very simple, many aspects of the Kingdom of God are not so simple. The mysteries of God are indeed complex and many. The different terminology used in scripture are not always talking about the same things. I wondered if this was one of those cases.

I think we suppose God has mysteries He is keeping from us, or making it difficult to understand. I don't find that to be the case. Especially in this case.

Maybe we should define "heaven". That might help us understand.

 

[Nathan]

First, we know from the passage I posted in Gal. 1 that there is only one gospel. For Paul to now say that there are two would be contradictory. Second, here is how the verse is to be understood:

Gal 2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (ESV)

And that is then reaffirmed by the that follows it:

Gal 2:8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), (ESV)

It is about whom they are each teaching to, not about the content of what they teach.

The problem with interpretation of this verse is translations. One says "of the" and the other "unto".

"Of the" does seem like content. But when we realize the translation used words of that time, then we understand that it does mean who the message is for.

 

[Douglas Summers]

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Again I refer to Galatians 2:7," But contrariwise when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter." Can you explain the difference between "the gospel of the uncircumcision" and "the gospel of the circumcision"?

Hi dirtfarmer, I think this would suffice for one Gospel to two different entities. (Romans 10:1-21; 11:1-36) (Acts 15:13-18) (Eph. 2:11-3:4) Sometimes we can't see the trees for the forest.