The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[chessman]

From scripture, a demon needs a home to operate from. And that is a willing human being.

Oh, okay thanks. I wasn’t sure if you meant their original Heavenly home, home in the Earth, home in the Abyss, home in the Legion pigs, or their final home (Hell).

 

[gr8grace3]

Oh, okay thanks. I wasn’t sure if you meant their original Heavenly home, home in the Earth, home in the Abyss, home in the Legion pigs, or their final home (Hell).

The key though Chessman, is we are discussing in human history and human time. And when demons deal with us, in time, they need a home.And it is a willing human participant.

And we do not see the beast separated from this human when the beast is cast into the LoF.......Hence SON of perdition/destruction for the MAN of lawlessness.

 

[chessman]

Now, explain how an angel can be wounded, and how this wound heals in angels.

It’s a sign of deception.

Hm. "its fatal wound HAD BEEN HEALED". OK. Explain how that is applicable to angels.

These three demons deceive people, into thinking a normally fatal wound to the head with a sword is healed by performing these great signs, that’s how.

And I saw one of his heads as- if having been slain to death. And his wound of death was cured. And the whole earth was caused-to-marvel [while following] after the beast.​

Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=DLNT

And they gave-worship to the dragon, because he gave the authority to the beast. And they gave worship to the beast saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage-war against him?” And he deceives the ones dwelling upon the earth because-of the signs which it was given him to do in the presence of the beast— telling the ones dwelling upon the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and lived.​

Revelation 13:4,14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:4,14&version=DLNT

I don't have to. I've never said a human grants another human the ability to cut off anyone's head.

Yet on your view that’s what would need to happen. Somehow a mere human let’s another human cut off his head so it can be healed and ‘live’.

So it simply makes no sense to think they can be wounded at all.

It’s called great signs of deception for a reason.

 

[chessman]

And we do not see the beast separated from this human when the beast is cast into the LoF.

You’re sure? 100% sure from the Text that we are not in fact told that the Beast is separated from ‘this human’ before The Beast is sent to the Lake of Fire?

 

[gr8grace3]

It’s called great signs of deception for a reason.

Would it not be a great sign to witness a persons decapitation and later see them alive? I would consider that one of the best signs and proofs around.

The Irony or divine humor of it all?.........

New American Standard Bible
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

 

[gr8grace3]

You’re sure? 100% sure from the Text that we are not in fact told that the Beast is separated from ‘this human’ before The Beast is sent to the Lake of Fire?

Not that I am aware of Brother. Enlighten me?

 

[chessman]

Not that I am aware of Brother. Enlighten me?

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings. The five fell, the one is, the other did not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short time.​

Revelation 17:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9-10&version=DLNT

At the time John was shown this vision five kings (five of the seven heads) had already been separated from the Beast (they died and their kindoms with them). One was still attached yet fell after John’s death (Rome). And one is appearing now (guess who) but will remain only a short time. Then the Beast is finally thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[gr8grace3]

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings. The five fell, the one is, the other did not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short time.​

Revelation 17:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9-10&version=DLNT

At the time John was shown this vision five kings (five of the seven heads) had already been separated from the Beast (they died and their kindoms with them). One was still attached yet fell after John’s death (Rome). And one is appearing now (guess who) but will remain only a short time. Then the Beast is finally thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I am not following you perfectly.

The (guess who) is the beast. And I really don't see how he is separated from his human home from this scripture?

 

[chessman]

I am not following you perfectly.

It’s what the Scripture, one of the seven angels in this case, (not me) says. So let’s take it one step at a time and see where the breakdown in understanding is (yours or mine):

Step 1:

And the angel said to me [John], “For what reason do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman [The Great Prostitute], and of the beast carrying her— the one having the seven heads and the ten horns [The 1st Beast he saw in Rev 13:1-10, 16:10-11, etc.].​

Revelation 17:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:7&version=DLNT

Conclusion 1: Would you agree that the angel in v 17:7 is about to tell John in the following verses what the visions of The Women and The Beast mean? That is, their interpretation. The solution to the “mystery”, so-to-speak, of his visions.

I’m gonna skip a step or two (for brevity) and address your point about The Beast’s ‘human home’ and simply assume you agree with step 1 above. If not, please ask for clarification or point out my mistakes in interpretation of this verse and v 9.

The (guess who) is the beast.

That’s incorrect. And more importantly, here’s why:

The heads/horns of John’s vision of The Beast represents (are interpreted by the angel, not me) various human kings/kingdoms (what you are referring to as The Beast’s ‘human home’, so-to-speak). Which is what I’ve said about the ‘human home’ and supported with Scripture (and can present more Scripture if needed though I don’t see why it should be necessary). Anyway, here’s step 2:

Step 2:

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings.​

Revelation 17:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9&version=DLNT

Conclusion 2: Would you agree that the seven heads of The Beast represents (is interpreted as) seven human kings?

We can go on from here to further steps if you agree with my steps 1 and 2 conclusions above. If not, please ask for clarification or present Biblical evidence as to why my points are not valid.

 

[chessman]

all I know it is a place of torment and eternal separation from God as none of us whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will never know what it would actually look like and I for one do not want to know.

since it will be a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to the ones afflicting you and to give you, the ones being afflicted, rest along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire, giving punishment to the ones not knowing God and the ones not obeying the good-news of our Lord Jesus— who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-9&version=DLNT

If you don’t also know ‘it’ (their punishment) is also a DEATH penalty and DESTRUCTION (in addition to fire and torment), then frankly, I don’t see how you are doing Theology on Hell.

Destruction and misery are in their ways.​

Romans 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 3:16&version=DLNT

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Romans 6:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:23&version=DLNT

But I agree, it ain’t applicable to those of us who’s names ARE written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. What a gift we have!

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only-born Son, in order that everyone believing in Him may not perish, but may have eternal life.​

John 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:16&version=DLNT

Still, we are told about ‘it’ so we can know about ‘it’.

“Enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the gate and broad is the road leading-away to destruction— and many are the ones entering through it.​

Matthew 7:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:13&version=DLNT

When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given to Me. And I guarded them, and none of them perished— except the son of destruction, in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to You. And I am speaking these things in the world so that they may have My joy made-full in themselves.​

John 17:12-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:12-13&version=DLNT

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Now, explain how an angel can be wounded, and how this wound heals in angels."

It’s a sign of deception.

Well, that's convenient. But the Bible doesn't describe the healing as "appears as a healing". It plainly says the wound had been healed. Not appeared to have been healed. Words are important.

Yet on your view that’s what would need to happen. Somehow a mere human let’s another human cut off his head so it can be healed and ‘live’.

Did you see the photo of about 20 Arab Christians kneel on sand while ISIS murderers cut off their heads? Of course mere humans let other mere humans cut off their heads.

It’s called great signs of deception for a reason.

The deception is in what people believe. As an example, the number of people on earth who believe that a one world government is the best way to go. Now, that's deception. Straight from satan.

 

[chessman]

It plainly says the wound had been healed. Not appeared to have been healed. Words are important.

Are these words important?

And one of its heads appeared as though slaughtered to death, ... ​

Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=LEB

The Scripture is clear when read as a whole. One of the Beast’s heads (a king) APPEARED as though slaughtered to death! It appears as though you are not going to yield to this point. I’m not pointing it out to you again.

Did you see the photo of about 20 Arab Christians kneel on sand while ISIS murderers cut off their heads? Of course mere humans let other mere humans cut off their heads.

Again, a snip from what I said without regard for the whole sentence:

I said: “Somehow a mere human let’s another human cut off his head so it can be healed and ‘live’.”
Yes, I’ve seen that video and more (lots more). If one of those victims on the beach had his head wound healed, wouldn’t you think he was some kind of special ‘man’?

The deception is in what people believe.

Correct. Which the deception is that a king get’s his head mortality wounded by a sword, then healed. When in reality it’s not a death at all. It “appears” to be.

 

[chessman]

Would it not be a great sign to witness a persons decapitation and later see them alive? I would consider that one of the best signs and proofs around.

Bingo!

 

[for_his_glory]

since it will be a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to the ones afflicting you and to give you, the ones being afflicted, rest along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire, giving punishment to the ones not knowing God and the ones not obeying the good-news of our Lord Jesus— who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-9&version=DLNT

If you don’t also know ‘it’ (their punishment) is also a DEATH penalty and DESTRUCTION (in addition to fire and torment), then frankly, I don’t see how you are doing Theology on Hell.

Destruction and misery are in their ways.​

Romans 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 3:16&version=DLNT

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Romans 6:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:23&version=DLNT

But I agree, it ain’t applicable to those of us who’s names ARE written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. What a gift we have!

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only-born Son, in order that everyone believing in Him may not perish, but may have eternal life.​

John 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:16&version=DLNT

Still, we are told about ‘it’ so we can know about ‘it’.

“Enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the gate and broad is the road leading-away to destruction— and many are the ones entering through it.​

Matthew 7:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:13&version=DLNT

When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given to Me. And I guarded them, and none of them perished— except the son of destruction, in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to You. And I am speaking these things in the world so that they may have My joy made-full in themselves.​

John 17:12-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:12-13&version=DLNT

The Apostle John says that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day and night; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). Jesus said that the lake of fire is a furnace of fire in Matthew 13:41, 42 and outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.

The fact that the lake of fire is eternal is plain from the following verses where it is described as:

1. Everlasting fire.......................Matthew 25:41
2. Everlasting punishment...........Matthew 25:46
3. Eternal damnation..................Mark 3:29
4. Everlasting destruction.......... II Thessalonians 1:9
5. Everlasting contempt..............Daniel 12:2
6. Torment forever and ever.......Revelation 14:9-11
7. Blackness of darkness forever.....Jude 13
8. Vengeance of eternal life............Jude 7
9. Lake of fire--forever and ever......Revelation 20:10
10. Second death--forever..............Revelation 20:14
11. Elements melt, earth and works are burned up.......2 Peter Chapter 3

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are these words important?

And one of its heads appeared as though slaughtered to death, ... ​

Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=LEB

The Scripture is clear when read as a whole. One of the Beast’s heads (a king) APPEARED as though slaughtered to death! It appears as though you are not going to yield to this point. I’m not pointing it out to you again.

All the words in the Bible are important. What is clear is that this beast suffered a wound, that had been healed. Whether it led to an actual death, or was serious enough for death isn't the point nor important.

What is important is that the beast suffered a wound that had healed.

Correct. Which the deception is that a king get’s his head mortality wounded by a sword, then healed. When in reality it’s not a death at all. It “appears” to be.

Still doesn't support the idea that a demon was wounded and the wound healed.

I researched the ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) on its view of the antichrist/beast. Seems the ISBE believes the beasts represents a government, not an individual.

So, whether the beast is an individual human, a demon, or a government, there is no theology involved. It's just a detail. So not that important.

Kinda like the Rapture. Whether pre-trib or post-trib. Doesn't change any theology.

 

[chessman]

The Apostle John says that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever;

Yes, the smoke from their 1st death (the burning with fire of their bodies) goes up forever. And if someone didn’t actually read the context, they might think your mention of Rev 14:11 and Rev 19:3 was actually talking about (describing) the lost’s punishment in Hell (their 2nd death). When in fact, it’s talking about the bodily death of all the remaining Beast worshippers at Christ’s return and their pre-Judgment 1st death. Performed in the presence of the Lamb Himself, not in Hell.

And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,​

Revelation 14:1,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1,6&version=LEB

And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name. Here is the patient endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.​

Revelation 14:9-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:9-12&version=LEB

The fact that the lake of fire is eternal is plain from the following verses

None of which describes the lost’s final, post-Judgment punishment as eternal torture.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment

Do you think S&G’s destruction was a metaphor?

 

[chessman]

I researched the ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) on its view of the antichrist/beast. Seems the ISBE believes the beasts represents a government, not an individual.

It doesn’t require researching anything other than the verses I have posted numerous times already:

The 7 heads/10 horns of the Beast represents kings/kingdoms (governments and their leaders). Five of which had already fallen in John’s day. One was still active (Rome). And one is rising as we speak.

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings. The five fell, the one is, the other did not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short time. And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who did not-yet receive a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.​

Revelation 17:9-10,12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9-10,12&version=DLNT

The Beast itself is a demon, performing great signs to deceive.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

Kinda like the Rapture. Whether pre-trib or post-trib. Doesn't change any theology.

Well, it all works out in accordance with God’s purpose in the End.

For God gave it into their hearts to do His purpose, and to do one purpose, and to give their kingdom to the beast— until the words of God will be finished.​

Revelation 17:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:17&version=DLNT

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, the smoke from their 1st death (the burning with fire of their bodies) goes up forever. And if someone didn’t actually read the context, they might think your mention of Rev 14:11 and Rev 19:3 was actually talking about (describing) the lost’s punishment in Hell (their 2nd death). When in fact, it’s talking about the bodily death of all the remaining Beast worshippers at Christ’s return and their pre-Judgment 1st death. Performed in the presence of the Lamb Himself, not in Hell.

And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,​

Revelation 14:1,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1,6&version=LEB

And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name. Here is the patient endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.​

Revelation 14:9-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:9-12&version=LEB


None of which describes the lost’s final, post-Judgment punishment as eternal torture.


Do you think S&G’s destruction was a metaphor?

The verses in Rev 14:9-11 are speaking of those who take the mark of the beast and their punishment of Gods judgement against them will be being cast into the lake of fire for taking the mark of the beast as they will have sealed their fate.

Read all of Rev 19 as it explains the rejoicing in heaven as Mystery Babylon, which I can not say who that is for the ToS rules, is destroyed as at that time Christ returns and cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire.

No, it's not a post judgement punishment as it is a judgement for their act of taking the mark of the beast and then follows with various descriptions of the lake of fire given in various scriptures.

No, Sodom and Gomorrah was literal, but also used in description in other verses of what the lake of fire will be like.

 

[for_his_glory]

All the words in the Bible are important. What is clear is that this beast suffered a wound, that had been healed. Whether it led to an actual death, or was serious enough for death isn't the point nor important.

What is important is that the beast suffered a wound that had healed.


Still doesn't support the idea that a demon was wounded and the wound healed.

I researched the ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) on its view of the antichrist/beast. Seems the ISBE believes the beasts represents a government, not an individual.

So, whether the beast is an individual human, a demon, or a government, there is no theology involved. It's just a detail. So not that important.

Kinda like the Rapture. Whether pre-trib or post-trib. Doesn't change any theology.

Rev 13 The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian economic, political and religious power that gives it's power to the beast out of the earth who is the son of perdition who takes his seat on the Temple mount showing great lying signs and wonders that will deceive many into taking its mark as many will bow down to this beast unaware what they are making allegiance to.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, it all works out in accordance with God’s purpose in the End.

For God gave it into their hearts to do His purpose, and to do one purpose, and to give their kingdom to the beast— until the words of God will be finished.​

Revelation 17:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:17&version=DLNT

Amen!