The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[jasonc]

My understanding is that 2 Peter 2:4 IS Tartarus.
??

The idea of both predates the Lord.
Remember that gehinnom is a burn pit .it's also a rabbinical teaching.

 

[GodsGrace]

The idea of both predates the Lord.
Remember that gehinnom is a burn pit .it's also a rabbinical teaching.

By gehinnom you must mean gehenna.
So, gehenna is Tartarus
Tartarus is hell.

But 2 Peter 2:4 says it's for the angels.
I'm not saying I don't believe in hell, I'm just saying that maybe the N.T. wasn't translated really well in THIS regard...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus strikes me as being a person who was very blunt, speaking truths as they exist.
A lake of fire in any meaningful way destroys that which is thrown into it.
The word destroy means to make into nothing, to pull apart, make as if it was not there.
And Jesus probably did mean cutting off hands and plucking out eyes, to prove a point.

Listen to how easily people compromise their faith. Oh that is just a small lie, that affair I
had was just my flesh running away with itself, that show of anger was totally justified.

We talk as if morals are a moving feast and there are no consequences. A King is condemned
to die, but showing mercy, how can that be a bad thing? Because God commanded death.

Revelation 14:9-11;
"9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

How do you interpret this?

 

[GodsGrace]

After having discussions with people who say, Christ does everything I just have to believe,
makes me think these are people who turn up to the feast without proper preparation.

It made me think yes we know we are going to the wedding feast of the King, but are we really
part of the Kingdom. So many claim, I am in with God because .... but actually have no respect
for the King at all. So I see this as a warning to say, one might recognise the realities of Jesus,
but if you do nothing about it, it will mean nothing in the end, just window dressing.

PJ
I think that many say they believe in Jesus, but the problem is that they don't believe in what He said.

In Mathew 4:17 Jesus said to REPENT for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Did He mean that everybody was about to die?
No.
The Kingdom of God is right here on earth and Jesus was going to show us WHERE it is and how to be a part of it.

1. We need to understand what repent means. As we all know, it doesn't mean to feel sorry for. It means to change our direction and go the other way...from the road toward the enemy, we turn around and take the road toward God.

This means WE ARE WALKING and not standing still. Yes. You're right. Some would have us believe that Jesus will do all the walking for us, but Jesus is at the end of the road, waiting for us. We are helped along by the Holy Spirit - God has not abandoned us, as He promised.
Mathew 28:20

2. Jesus left us with very specific instructions. All one has to do is read the gospel of Mathew...It's all there.

So then we're told we're not UNDER THE LAW.
Right.
We're NOT under the law, we're under GRACE.
This does not mean the Law is abolished.
Mathew 5:17
This only means that we are now under the New Covenant of grace and HOW we keep the Law has been changed.
Before it was not possible, now it is.

If the two above conditions exist, we ARE members of the Kingdom of God.

Here. Which will be continued into the next world.

 

[JohnDB]

When coming out of this world (by death) and meeting God "face to face" one has to be in the same realm as God. This means stepping outside the boundaries of time itself. As a result every time Hell or the unpleasant end awaiting those who never submitted themselves to God is mentioned it is heavily encased in metaphor.
The only reason I can fathom for this is that as good as the rewards are going to be for us an equally bad reward awaits those who didn't submit.
And where we can't really understand what Heaven is going to be like neither can we really understand how bad Hell will be either.

So in the end I can without hesitation say, "I know that I do not know"

 

[GodsGrace]

When coming out of this world (by death) and meeting God "face to face" one has to be in the same realm as God. This means stepping outside the boundaries of time itself. As a result every time Hell or the unpleasant end awaiting those who never submitted themselves to God is mentioned it is heavily encased in metaphor.
The only reason I can fathom for this is that as good as the rewards are going to be for us an equally bad reward awaits those who didn't submit.
And where we can't really understand what Heaven is going to be like neither can we really understand how bad Hell will be either.

So in the end I can without hesitation say, "I know that I do not know"

 

[jasonc]

By gehinnom you must mean gehenna.
So, gehenna is Tartarus
Tartarus is hell.

But 2 Peter 2:4 says it's for the angels.
I'm not saying I don't believe in hell, I'm just saying that maybe the N.T. wasn't translated really well in THIS regard...

Hades is often what Jesus spoke of but both are cast into the lake of fire,gehenna.

 

[WIP]

Just a reminder that this is the Theology forum and the rules need to be followed. Points and counterpoints need to be supported by Scripture to avoid just sharing opinions.

 

[Jim Parker]

So to torture people for eternity for this does not make sense.

People raising from the dead doesn't make sense either.
A virgin conceiving and giving birth doesn't make sense.
And I don't care. It's what scripture says is true.

Scripture also says that all of mankind will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52-53ff)
Scripture also says that those who are condemned will be sent to hell. (Mat 25:41)
So those immortal and incorruptible (indestructible) condemned will be sent to eternal fire.

However, there are a variety of views as to exactly what that experience will be.
Consider this one from comments about hell from "The River of Fire" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS

Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it"
-----
In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," ** saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.

** "'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds. Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgment, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. This fire will be kindled within a man; seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.

"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears: 'Come unto Me, ye blessed.' And conversely: the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!"

iakov the fool

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Jim,
You seem to be taking a universalist interpretation of the resurrection.
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 1 cor 15:50
The argument is only the children of God will experience this transformation into the eternal.
You made a jump of Pauls words and took it to mean that everyone will is now eternal.
But Pauls discussion about the sting of death is now silenced only applies to believers.
His point is faith extinguishes this sting, which obviously does not apply to non-believers.

It is this leap of logic I do not follow. Logically if Paul is saying non-believers are not immortal,
then they are to be destroyed in the lake of fire.
:

 

[chessman]

Scripture also says that all of mankind will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52-53ff)

No it doesn't. Paul says "WE" (the church of God) will be raised imperishable, not 'all mankind'. Paul was talking to the saved, not 'the condemned'.

to the church of God sanctified in Christ Jesus that is in Corinth, called to be saints, together with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 1:2&version=LEB​

...

Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:51-52&version=LEB​

Scripture also says that those who are condemned will be sent to hell. (Mat 25:41)

Those on the left, but not the blessed on the right.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world!
...
Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:34,41&version=LEB​

 

[chessman]

The resurrection of the dead occurs for "all" but only the righteous have eternal life according to the Way:

“Do not be astonished at this, because an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear his voice and they will come out—those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, but those who have practiced evil things to a resurrection of judgment.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 5:28-29&version=LEB

But I do confess this to you, that according to the Way (which they call a sect), so I worship the God of our fathers, believing all things that are in accordance with the law and that are written in the prophets, having a hope in God which these men also themselves await: that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 24:14-15&version=LEB
​

 

[for_his_glory]

The lake of fire may be a real place or a metaphor as scripture gives no literal location, but is very descriptive as a place of outer darkness and torment and being eternal as all those people including Satan, the beast and the false prophet that are cast into it will be remembered no more.

The duration of punishment for the one cast into the lake of fire is everlasting. Isaiah speaks of the everlasting burning of the fire that shall never be quenched and of the worm which shall never die (Isaiah 33:14; 66:24). David said that some would awake unto eternal life and others unto shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of the unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12; Mark 9:43). Paul the Apostle speaks of how the lost will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (II Thessalonians 1:9).

The Apostle John says that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day and night; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). Jesus said that the lake of fire is a furnace of fire in Matthew 13:41, 42 and outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.

The fact that the lake of fire is eternal is plain from the following verses where it is described as:
1. Everlasting fire.......................Matthew 25:41
2. Everlasting punishment...........Matthew 25:46
3. Eternal damnation..................Mark 3:29
4. Everlasting destruction.......... II Thessalonians 1:9
5. Everlasting contempt..............Daniel 12:2
6. Torment forever and ever.......Revelation 14:9-11
7. Blackness of darkness forever.....Jude 13
8. Vengeance of eternal life............Jude 7
9. Lake of fire--forever and ever......Revelation 20:10
10. Second death--forever..............Revelation 20:14
11. Elements melt, earth and works are burned up.......2Peter Chapter 3

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

In my own minds eye I see the lake of fire as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory. No more tears, no more hurts, pain sickness, etc, etc. Those in the lake of fire are outside the realm of God continuing in all their sin, sickness, hurts, pain tears, etc. etc., but can see those who are in the glory of the Lord like looking through a window and wanting what others have, but will never have it and this is their torment for eternity as they are constantly consumed with the fire that burns in their souls for what they have rejected and now to late to receive.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Jim,
You seem to be taking a universalist interpretation of the resurrection.
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 1 cor 15:50
The argument is only the children of God will experience this transformation into the eternal.
You made a jump of Pauls words and took it to mean that everyone will is now eternal.
But Pauls discussion about the sting of death is now silenced only applies to believers.
His point is faith extinguishes this sting, which obviously does not apply to non-believers.

It is this leap of logic I do not follow. Logically if Paul is saying non-believers are not immortal,
then they are to be destroyed in the lake of fire.
:

We often encounter the vile, the vulgar and in this world, about 7% of us have encountered the despicably horrible that eats at your own humanity but the truth is that scripture is protected by the Omnipotent God of Creation where there is nothing cannot do. We must learn to turn these things over to God and leave them with him.

In 1John 4:18 we find relief for the horrible that does not let you sleep in peace. If we cannot imagine we must turn over to God.

Now, about the mortality of the lost man, We must cease to jump ahead of and thereby quench the Spirit. So many, today belong to the Other Gospels taught by the New Generation of deceivers. But the truth is the Bible is the Bible Jesus taught from and there were no God ordained Life Application Commentaries until the New Testament was written a it was not written until God inspired it to be.

All of that being understood, we must never forget the basics of the Faith that saves us. it is thus that we must read the first three chapters of the first book to learn a few things, basics. In this case we find in the first two chapters that we were Perfect when God Created them ad we messed everything up. But in Gen, 1:26 of the passage found of 26 - 28 we discover that God, before the Son of God walked with us, said He was creating us in His Image. But we come in different colors and our bodies and shapes, He did not mean the outside.

No, God mens there is a element in our bodies that looks like Him. We are Eternal as He is eternal. te body dies but the sirit of every man and woman is eternal, eternally in Heaven or in that other place.

 

[for_his_glory]

th1b.taylor , I agree with what you said as people do not have the concept of the world eternal as being either with Christ or the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

duplicate

 

[th1b.taylor]

th1b.taylor , I agree with what you said as people do not have the concept of the world eternal as being either with Christ or the lake of fire.

Agree, I didn't either until I dug into the scriptres for a few years. It is impossible to see, I bellieve.

 

[PeterJens]

No, God mens there is a element in our bodies that looks like Him. We are Eternal as He is eternal. te body dies but the sirit of every man and woman is eternal, eternally in Heaven or in that other place.

Interesting idea. But I would contend that Gods eternity is the not the important point about Him,
but His love is. It defines who He is and how He walks. And I agree He created us like Him with
love in our hearts, but we betrayed this love and chose death with knowledge over life with trust.
So unfortunately settling for eternal being the key issue and not love, I would suggest is a mistake.
If Jesus said we will be destroyed in the lake of fire, why is this not literally true. What is the point
of eternal torment, when we never had eternal knowledge but just a shadow in this world.

 

[ezrider]

The lake of fire is not some garbage dump. It is a description of the Glory of the Lord. Everlasting torment? I'm sure that's what the children of Israel thought when they refused to go up the mountain when the Lord descended upon it in a cloud of fire, and chose to follow the Law instead. But some possessed the Faith to go up the mountain that day: Moses, Joshua, and Caleb among others. They did not fear the consuming fire as the others had. The children of Israel feared for their death, but those who were of the faith, death had no power over them. Blessed are those who are part of the first resurrection, for on such the second death hath no power. The lake of fire; the Glory of the Lord.

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim,
You seem to be taking a universalist interpretation of the resurrection.

Jhn 5:28-28
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Not "some", "all" will be resurrected.
Why resurrect people from a state of having been reduces to nothing but bones only to reduce them to nothing again? Why go through the effort? Thar makes no sense.
Mat 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Why is the fire eternal if people are annihilated (reduced to ashes) as the JWs and 7th Day Adventist teach? Get a big enough fire; burn everyone up in a few hours and be done with it. But that's not what the scripture says.
Because God became man, died and raised again indestructible (eternal), all of mankind will be raised to an indestructible, eternal existence. The righteous to eternal life and the unrighteous to eternal separation from God.
Eternal life is effected by being indwelt with the Spirit of God who gives life.
Jhn 6:63a It is the spirit that gives life,
Eternal death is the condition of existence without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Jas 2:26 the body apart from the spirit is dead,

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 1 cor 15:50
The argument is only the children of God will experience this transformation into the eternal.

You almost got it.
Only the children of God will make the transformation into eternal LIFE.
The condemned will be raised to eternal death; the 2nd death which is the lake of fire.
And Jesus, who has gone before us into heaven, has flesh and blood. He is as completely human as every one of us are.
1Co 15:52-53 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
Paul did not say the children of God will be raised imperishable.
He said "the dead will be raised imperishable" and "perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality."
NOWHERE in that does he suggest that it is only the righteous who are made imperishable and immortal.

You made a jump of Pauls words and took it to mean that everyone will is now eternal.
But Pauls discussion about the sting of death is now silenced only applies to believers.
His point is faith extinguishes this sting, which obviously does not apply to non-believers.

There is nothing in Paul's statement to support that notion.
Man was made in the image of God. Gen 1:26
Jesus is the perfect image of God Col 1:15
He has flesh and is completely human as we are and, when we see Him, we shall be like Him. This flesh and blood of ours cannot inherit the kingdom by our own efforts because our flesh is infected by sin and, therefore dead. but: "...when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1Jo 3:2) He is able to make us perfect.
Eph 5:25-27 Christ ... loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
He has flesh and we will enter into eternal life with our flesh and blood.

It is this leap of logic I do not follow. Logically if Paul is saying non-believers are not immortal, then they are to be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Scripture please.
Man's "logic" has a habit of leading him into all kinds of heresy and foolishness.
We don't understand the scriptures by what we think is logical but by what they actually say.
NOWHERE does Paul say that anyone is "destroyed" in the lake of fire.
What is said of those who are cast into the lake of fire is "the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night...," Rev 14:11
That is not "destruction." That is eternal torment.