The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[chessman]

no one could ever fathom what it will be like in all reality.

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Just look at Sodom now. That’s what it will be like.

 

[Jim Parker]

I know it's the second death according to Rev 20:11-15. Scripture gives a metaphorical description. but yet no one could ever fathom what it will be like in all reality.

I think that's accurate.
I don't want to find out what it's really like!

 

[1Genesis]

That is a false understanding based on the Platonic/ neo-Platonic notion of dualism in the the opposition of spirit and matterwith sth spirit being good and matter being evil.

That's a really bad slur to put on Paul's 1 Corinthian epistle.

 

[Jim Parker]

That's a really bad slur to put on Paul's 1 Corinthian epistle.

How so?

 

[ezrider]

I think that's accurate.
I don't want to find out what it's really like!

Paul described it like this.....

Hebrews 12:18-21
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

 

[for_his_glory]

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Just look at Sodom now. That’s what it will be like.

That's only second guessing as it is impossible to know the exact. It's like the New Jerusalem as no one will know what it will actually look like until they go there, but described as a beautiful place as the lake of fire is described as a place of torment.

 

[chessman]

That's only second guessing

If Jude and Peter were serious, the destruction of the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah have been exhibited as an example of what will be the final punishment of the wicked when they are cast into Hell.

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

And in greediness they will exploit you with false words, whose condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. ... and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,​

2 Peter 2:3,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:3,6&version=LEB

If Jesus was serious the destruction of the wicked’s body and soul is their punishment.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

“And I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after these things do not have anything more to do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:4-5&version=LEB

Doesn’t sound like a ‘second guess’ to understand these authors meant that their “second death” or being cast into Hell, is a punishment precisely consisting of the destruction of their bodies and souls. Forever, this time.

 

[for_his_glory]

If Jude and Peter were serious, the destruction of the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah have been exhibited as an example of what will be the final punishment of the wicked when they are cast into Hell.

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

And in greediness they will exploit you with false words, whose condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. ... and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly,​

2 Peter 2:3,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:3,6&version=LEB

If Jesus was serious the destruction of the wicked’s body and soul is their punishment.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

“And I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after these things do not have anything more to do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:4-5&version=LEB

Doesn’t sound like a ‘second guess’ to understand these authors meant that their “second death” or being cast into Hell, is a punishment precisely consisting of the destruction of their bodies and souls. Forever, this time.

Everywhere in scripture that remotely speaks of the lake of fire gives an example, but yet never the literal as no one could ever know. All we know is that it is a place (not literal location) of eternal torment and devastation. A place that separates one from God forever to be remembered no more by God.

 

[chessman]

Everywhere in scripture that remotely speaks of the lake of fire gives an example, but yet never the literal as no one could ever know.

I’m not following the evidence (whether Biblical or reasoned) for your specific claim on this particular point. Can you clarify, please, why you think no one could ever know (I mean literally know) what their punishment will be: Just for an example of how inaccurate this statement is, do you mean we will NEVER know (as in literally never, post-judgment) or that Jesus doesn’t literally know what their punishment will be?

Do you think the city of Sodom (for example) was not literally destroyed as an example of their punishment we should know? [I think it’s a perfectly literal and reasonable example, which is why Peter and Jude used it.]

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Do you think there are not people who can (and have done so) literally kill the body? [I think there are literal murderes that kill the body but not the soul, which is why Jesus gives us this perfectly understandable, and literal example.]

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

Where (and more importantly why) does Jesus’ statement above turn from being a very literal example (murder of the body only) to being non literal on your understanding of the punishment (Hell)? Seems to me it’s all literal. Very literal.

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=LEB

Why do you not believe “their share in the Lake of fire” or as Jesus said other places “cast into Hell”, is not literally their “second death” consisting quite literally of the destruction of their body and soul in Hell?

I understand there are metaphors and symbolism throughout Revelation (to include the vision of a “Lake of Fire”). And they can be deep and tricky to literalize at times when the authors don’t do so. BUT at times, Jesus (and His prophets in other Texts) tells the literal meaning of these visions/metaphors. Rev 21:8 is just such a time. Daniel is literally told what dreams mean, etc.

 

[for_his_glory]

I’m not following the evidence (whether Biblical or reasoned) for your specific claim on this particular point. Can you clarify, please, why you think no one could ever know (I mean literally know) what their punishment will be: Just for an example of how inaccurate this statement is, do you mean we will NEVER know (as in literally never, post-judgment) or that Jesus doesn’t literally know what their punishment will be?

Do you think the city of Sodom (for example) was not literally destroyed as an example of their punishment we should know? [I think it’s a perfectly literal and reasonable example, which is why Peter and Jude used it.]

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Do you think there are not people who can (and have done so) literally kill the body? [I think there are literal murderes that kill the body but not the soul, which is why Jesus gives us this perfectly understandable, and literal example.]

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

Where (and more importantly why) does Jesus’ statement above turn from being a very literal example (murder of the body only) to being non literal on your understanding of the punishment (Hell)? Seems to me it’s all literal. Very literal.

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=LEB

Why do you not believe “their share in the Lake of fire” or as Jesus said other places “cast into Hell”, is not literally their “second death” consisting quite literally of the destruction of their body and soul in Hell?

I understand there are metaphors and symbolism throughout Revelation (to include the vision of a “Lake of Fire”). And they can be deep and tricky to literalize at times when the authors don’t do so. BUT at times, Jesus (and His prophets in other Texts) tells the literal meaning of these visions/metaphors. Rev 21:8 is just such a time. Daniel is literally told what dreams mean, etc.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Even within all these descriptions no one person could ever know the reality, but to only know it is a place of judgement against those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will be cast into the lake of fire where the beast, false prophet and Satan will be cast into and then they will know its reality.

 

[Free]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness.

Actually, "hell" is most likely the lake of fire. What Jesus had to say (all ESV):

Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Mat 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

"Hell" here is the Greek word gehenna. Every strong warning that Jesus gives of punishment in "hell" is a translation of gehenna. Notice that in these passages it is clear that gehenna is the final place of the unrighteous.

Contrast that with the Greek word Hades, which is what the NT writers used in place of the OT Hebrew word Sheol:

Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Jesus uses Hades only two other times, none of which are in regard to the final place of the unrighteous. Looking at the rest of the NT, Hades is used only six more times:

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. (Note that this is a quote of Psalms 16:10, For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.) Sheol is simply the grave, the place the dead go to await the resurrection.

Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

And most importantly:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Hades, the grave, is thrown into the lake of fire. And since Jesus said that gehenna, a place of fire, was the final place of the unrighteous, and Revelations says that the lake of fire is the final place of the unrighteous, we can logically conclude that gehenna is the lake of fire, and gehenna is actually Hell proper. Translating hades, gehenna, and tartaroo all as "hell" is a mistake started, as far as I know, by the KJV and perpetuated by a few translations. This is the translation that Strong's is based off of, so it too perpetuates the problem. Really we should just do away with the word "hell," but if one is going to use it, they had best understand that it most likely refers to the lake of fire, the final destination of unbelievers.

 

[chessman]

Hell is not the lake of fire

The Bible uses both for the description of the final fate, the post-judgment condemnation of the wicked. The phrase “lake of fire” is called so because of John’s visionary revelation of Christ’s Judgment of the wicked. Which corresponds to Jesus’ teaching on His Judgment of the wicked in other Texts:

And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. ​

...

And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:12,15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:12,15&version=LEB

But I say to you that everyone who is angry at his brother will be subject to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Stupid fool!’ will be subject to the council, and whoever says, ‘Obstinate fool!’ will be subject to fiery hell.​

Matthew 5:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:22&version=LEB

[Rev -Lake of Fire, Jesus-fiery Hell, same thing]

those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will be cast into the lake of fire

Correct, which Jesus (not me) also calls being thrown into “fiery Hell”. Sorry, but your comment (Hell is not the Lake of Fire) lacks any support.

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it from you! It is better for you to enter into life one-eyed than, having two eyes, to be thrown into fiery hell!​

Matthew 18:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 18:9&version=LEB

Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How will you escape from the condemnation to hell?​

Matthew 23:33 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 23:33&version=LEB

For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.
...
as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:4,7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:4,7&version=LEB

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=LEB

Jude says the condemed wicked’s punishment is “eternal fire”, John sees it in his vision as the lake that burns with fire and sulphur.

The reality is a second death - Hell.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

 

[for_his_glory]

The Bible uses both for the description of the final fate, the post-judgment condemnation of the wicked. The phrase “lake of fire” is called so because of John’s visionary revelation of Christ’s Judgment of the wicked. Which corresponds to Jesus’ teaching on His Judgment of the wicked in other Texts:

And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. ​

...

And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:12,15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:12,15&version=LEB

But I say to you that everyone who is angry at his brother will be subject to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Stupid fool!’ will be subject to the council, and whoever says, ‘Obstinate fool!’ will be subject to fiery hell.​

Matthew 5:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:22&version=LEB

[Rev -Lake of Fire, Jesus-fiery Hell, same thing]


Correct, which Jesus (not me) also calls being thrown into “fiery Hell”. Sorry, but your comment (Hell is not the Lake of Fire) lacks any support.

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it from you! It is better for you to enter into life one-eyed than, having two eyes, to be thrown into fiery hell!​

Matthew 18:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 18:9&version=LEB

Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How will you escape from the condemnation to hell?​

Matthew 23:33 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 23:33&version=LEB

For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.
...
as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

Jude 1:4,7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:4,7&version=LEB

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​

Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=LEB

Jude says the condemed wicked’s punishment is “eternal fire”, John sees it in his vision as the lake that burns with fire and sulphur.

The reality is a second death - Hell.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

Hell fire in the sense it is given in Matthew 5:22 is the equivalent of Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48. Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell or fires of hell meaning the grave/pit where many were burned to death there as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.
We do agree that it is the second death.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually, "hell" is most likely the lake of fire. What Jesus had to say (all ESV):

Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Mat 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

"Hell" here is the Greek word gehenna. Every strong warning that Jesus gives of punishment in "hell" is a translation of gehenna. Notice that in these passages it is clear that gehenna is the final place of the unrighteous.

Contrast that with the Greek word Hades, which is what the NT writers used in place of the OT Hebrew word Sheol:

Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Jesus uses Hades only two other times, none of which are in regard to the final place of the unrighteous. Looking at the rest of the NT, Hades is used only six more times:

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. (Note that this is a quote of Psalms 16:10, For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.) Sheol is simply the grave, the place the dead go to await the resurrection.

Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

And most importantly:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Hades, the grave, is thrown into the lake of fire. And since Jesus said that gehenna, a place of fire, was the final place of the unrighteous, and Revelations says that the lake of fire is the final place of the unrighteous, we can logically conclude that gehenna is the lake of fire, and gehenna is actually Hell proper. Translating hades, gehenna, and tartaroo all as "hell" is a mistake started, as far as I know, by the KJV and perpetuated by a few translations. This is the translation that Strong's is based off of, so it too perpetuates the problem. Really we should just do away with the word "hell," but if one is going to use it, they had best understand that it most likely refers to the lake of fire, the final destination of unbelievers.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is that of death and hell alone cast into the lake of fire. In this verse death and hell means just that as there will be no more death or the need of hell (grave) as all will have been judged and those not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Free]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is that of death and hell alone cast into the lake of fire. In this verse death and hell means just that as there will be no more death or the need of hell (grave) as all will have been judged and those not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Your post only proves my point that the KJV has erroneously translated three different Greek words as "hell," and that any talk of hell is

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

Nearly every translation but the KJV says "Death and Hades." As I stated, the translation of hades by the KJV as "hell" is an error on the part of the translators. The grave, hades, is not hell; it is just the grave. If we want to use the word "hell," then we should use it as it is largely understood--a place of punishment/torment, the final destination of the unrighteous. That is the place Jesus called gehenna, the description of which quite easily fits the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

Your post only proves my point that the KJV has erroneously translated three different Greek words as "hell," and that any talk of hell is

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

Nearly every translation but the KJV says "Death and Hades." As I stated, the translation of hades by the KJV as "hell" is an error on the part of the translators. The grave, hades, is not hell; it is just the grave. If we want to use the word "hell," then we should use it as it is largely understood--a place of punishment/torment, the final destination of the unrighteous. That is the place Jesus called gehenna, the description of which quite easily fits the lake of fire.

It's only largely understood as how it has been taught to us by others who interpret its meaning. I believe Sheol, Hades and Hell to be the same as the pit/grave for from there will all who have physically died be resurrected from when Christ returns as some will rise to be with Jesus while others will rise to be cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

The lake of fire is the second death as death and hell have been cast into it meaning there is at that time no more death or need of hades/hell/pit/grave or whatever one wants to call it.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have often wondered about the lake of fire and what it represents.
In church history it has been eternal torture, burning those who are sinners for their sin.

Such people do not understand or have read Rev 20:11-15.

I have come to think this is not supported in scripture.

Right. It isn't supported in Scripture.

Torture is only mentioned in two places the rich man and lazerus Luke 16:23 and the beast who is tortured forever. Rev 20:10

Where was the beast cast into? The lake of fire. The same lake of fire that Rev 20:15 speaks of regarding which humans will be cast there, and WHY. The ONLY REASON one will be cast into the lake of fire is for failing to receive the gift of eternal life.

Mortal man lives a short time, yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal
suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth.

First, it isn't people who feel justified to condemn anyone. In fact, no human has any right or power to condemn anyone to anything in eternity. That belongs to our sovereign Lord Himself.

Second, it isn't failure to "grasp life" while on earth, but failure to simply receive the gift of eternal life, which is available to everyone.

Jesus says this
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

The Greek word for "destroy" includes the meaning of "to perish or lose", either figuratively or literally. So one cannot insist that it means that one is completely annihilated.

Is the lake of fire in the end the ultimate resolution for sinners who refuse to be healed?

It's the only place of existence for those who don't have God's life, which is eternal life. A gift that is received by faith in Christ.

The premise is man born separate from God, is a mess of motivations, focus, morals,
desires, which are all under their control. [/QUOTE]
The Bible teaches that all men are sinners, which separates them from God.

Through life a slow battle emerges of the soul striving to prove it has value and can succeed.

This is human viewpoint, a deception from satan. The soul cannot "succeed" (whatever that may mean) by itself.

All the while sin is distorting and eating away at the very fabric of the life they lead, to finally leave a husk which is no value
to anyone but be burnt up in the lake of fire.

Nothing burns up in the lake of fire. Or the Bible would have said that. Instead, Rev 20:10 indicates that existence in the lake of fire is "forever and ever".

To be born again, is to gain real life, eternal life, a beginning of something eternal that
brings everything together in the love Christ puts within us.

OK.

So sin though destructive, causing harm, is self destructive and indicates the futility of life without the Lord, and how the desires of the flesh are just illusions, passions of the moment, cynical grasping at rays of the sun, while denying its source.

So to torture people for eternity for this does not make sense.

Just understand that there are only 2 places of existence for the soul in eternity:
with God, or
apart from God.

Now in truth the Lord will do what the Lord will do, but we are given the word to discern what is right and just and
to know His will for fallen man.

Which is why we know that all unbelievers will spend an eternity apart from God, in the lake of fire.

Now those who have been hurt, who cannot forgive, who are bitter and twisted will want revenge, to see those who caused them pain suffer terribly.

This is irrelevant to what God's Word says.

But this is not Gods heart, or anything He expresses, rather the opposite.

I've shown the verses that tell us that unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

He shows up the foolishness of mans mind and brings in His wisdom of the cross, love sacrificing itself that people might see what love is and gain life, abandoning the struggle of significance to gain the ultimate significance in the Lord.

I therefore see more substance to the lake of fire being what we know fire to be, the destruction
of the thing that is thrown into it.

Where do you see this "substance" in Scripture?

I am seeking to grow and discern more clearly, and would not want to dishonour my King, so value any insights you might wish to bring

Did.

 

[FreeGrace]

The word for "hell" as we understand is not in the N.T...

It actually would be an interesting study.
I believe that no one can really know what lies beyond this life.

Except that we could go to be WITH God, or WITHOUT God.

Except the Bible is much more clear than that. ;)

 

[GodsGrace]

Except the Bible is much more clear than that. ;)

What are you sure of exactly?

 

[FreeGrace]

What are you sure of exactly?

You said: "I believe that no one can really know what lies beyond this life.

Except that we could go to be WITH God, or WITHOUT God."

My comment was in regard to that. "Except the Bible is much more clear than that. ;)"

Are you aware of Rev 20:11-15? That tells us more than your comment.

And your comment doesn't apply to believers. They will never be without God. Because Jesus promised: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—