The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[chessman]

That's a lot of everlasting ... for an OP about whether their punishment is torture or destruction. Nobody thinks their final punishment (destruction) is temporary.

1. Everlasting fire.......................Matthew 25:41

Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 33:14&version=LEB​

And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:46&version=LEB​

It's a life vs death (from His consuming fire) alternative, not a temporary vs eternal alternative.

2. Everlasting punishment...........Matthew 25:46

And this punishment is ...???

3. Eternal damnation..................Mark 3:29

Yep. No forgiveness of that sin, just their just wages (death, not torture).

For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:23&version=LEB​

4. Everlasting destruction.......... II

See??? Their final punishment is destruction (everlasting, this second time of their body and soul). Just like Daniel, Isaiah and Jesus prophecied:

5. Everlasting contempt..............Daniel 12:2

And many from those sleeping in the dusty ground will awake, some to everlasting life and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Daniel 12:2&version=LEB​

Yahweh's contempt for the wicked will not end. Thus, their destruction remains forever:

Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will become like the stench, and their blossom will go up like the dust. For they have rejected the instruction of Yahweh of hosts, and they have treated the word of the holy one of Israel with contempt. Therefore Yahweh’s wrath was kindled against his people, and he stretched out his hand against them and struck them, and the mountains quaked, and their corpses were like refuse in the middle of the streets. In all of this his anger has not turned back, and still his hand is stretched out.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 5:24-25&version=LEB

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

6. Torment forever and ever.......Revelation 14:9-11

Misquote! The smoke (ashes)of their torment ascends forever (never to be resurrected), not their torment which (BTW) they receive in the presence of the Lamb:

And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:9-10&version=LEB

Do you think the Lamb is present in Hell?

7. Blackness of darkness forever.....Jude 13

Just like Sodom and Gomorrah destruction:

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Now there's an example of God's full wrath, His consuming and destructive fire.

9. Lake of fire--forever and ever......Revelation 20:10

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever .​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=LEB

The Devil and his demons are not humans.

10. Second death--forever..............Revelation 20:14

John's vision was of a lake of fire. The reality/interpretation is a second death, destruction of both the body and soul of the wicked.

 

[chessman]

Why resurrect people from a state of having been reduces to nothing but bones only to reduce them to nothing again?

First, Their souls have not been destroyed yet, only their bodies killed. That's not nothing.
Second, they "hear" the judgment call and rise. They're not 'nothing' yet.
Third, they face final judgment standing before the Judge as humans in the form in which they rejected God.

Why go through the effort?Thar makes no sense.

Why chastising another's 'logic' (giving reasons for why one believe the way they do, while making up your own 'Logic'???

Man's "logic" has a habit of leading him into all kinds of heresy and foolishness.

He has flesh and we will enter into eternal life with our flesh and blood.

Who told you glorified bodies have blood?

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50&version=LEB

What is said of those who are cast into the lake of fire is "the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night...," Rev 14:11
That is not "destruction." That is eternal torment.

Rev 14:11 is vision of Beast worshippers pre-judgment death using language clearly understood as God's consming fire:

For wickedness burned like fire; it consumed brier and thorn. And it kindled the thickets of the forest, and they swirled upward in a column of smoke.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 9:18&version=LEB
​

He has flesh and is completely human as we are

He has a glorified body as we WILL have, not as we are now.

Christ paid the price. Is He suffering now?

 

[for_his_glory]

That's a lot of everlasting ... for an OP about whether their punishment is torture or destruction. Nobody thinks their final punishment (destruction) is temporary.

Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 33:14&version=LEB​

And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:46&version=LEB​

It's a life vs death (from His consuming fire) alternative, not a temporary vs eternal alternative.


And this punishment is ...???


Yep. No forgiveness of that sin, just their just wages (death, not torture).

For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:23&version=LEB​

See??? Their final punishment is destruction (everlasting, this second time of their body and soul). Just like Daniel, Isaiah and Jesus prophecied:

And many from those sleeping in the dusty ground will awake, some to everlasting life and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Daniel 12:2&version=LEB​

Yahweh's contempt for the wicked will not end. Thus, their destruction remains forever:

Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will become like the stench, and their blossom will go up like the dust. For they have rejected the instruction of Yahweh of hosts, and they have treated the word of the holy one of Israel with contempt. Therefore Yahweh’s wrath was kindled against his people, and he stretched out his hand against them and struck them, and the mountains quaked, and their corpses were like refuse in the middle of the streets. In all of this his anger has not turned back, and still his hand is stretched out.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 5:24-25&version=LEB

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB


Misquote! The smoke (ashes)of their torment ascends forever (never to be resurrected), not their torment which (BTW) they receive in the presence of the Lamb:

And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:9-10&version=LEB

Do you think the Lamb is present in Hell?



Just like Sodom and Gomorrah destruction:

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Now there's an example of God's full wrath, His consuming and destructive fire.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever .​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=LEB

The Devil and his demons are not humans.



John's vision was of a lake of fire. The reality/interpretation is a second death, destruction of both the body and soul of the wicked.

Where did everlasting turn into temporary in what I posted? All is eternal whether in the New Jerusalem or the lake of fire.

There are two forms of torture and destruction as one is physical and the other mental as all is final being cast into the lake of fire.

Since scripture is only descriptive about the lake of fire none of us being a child of God could ever know it's reality other than it is an eternal place.

Scripture gives us a metaphor picture of the lake of fire within the descriptions given and says it is eternal punishment for those who rejected the gospel message.

 

[Jim Parker]

Scripture gives us a metaphor picture of the lake of fire within the descriptions given and says it is eternal punishment for those who rejected the gospel message.

Yes. It is important to understand that some statements of Scripture are metaphors. We forget (some reject the fact) that the Bible is literature and the writers use every literary device that any skilled writer would use.
I understand eternal life as an eternal, physical, existence filled with the Holy Spirit and united to God in Christ.
And I understand hell as an eternal, physical, existence separated from God and Christ and the Holy Spirit.
How would you like to live in Detroit forever?

iakov the fool

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes. It is important to understand that some statements of Scripture are metaphors. We forget (some reject the fact) that the Bible is literature and the writers use every literary device that any skilled writer would use.
I understand eternal life as an eternal, physical, existence filled with the Holy Spirit and united to God in Christ.
And I understand hell as an eternal, physical, existence separated from God and Christ and the Holy Spirit.
How would you like to live in Detroit forever?

iakov the fool

I think there are those things in the Spiritual realm of God that we will never understand until this mortal puts on that of the immortal when those who are in Christ and He in them will be caught up to Him when He returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, then all things will be revealed to us. Many things in scripture are likened to that of what we can perceive with the physical mind, but not yet knowing the Spiritual realm of God.

In the Spiritual realm of God we have no true reality of what things look like, but know there are choices we can make. One is to be with Christ in all His glory eternally in the New Jerusalem by that of accepting Him as Lord and Savior and the other is rejecting Him being cast into the lake of fire for eternity even though the lake of fire is not an actual location, but again knowing it is in outer darkness away from the glory of the Lord.

There is no physical existence in the Kingdom of God or in the New Jerusalem as flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50, and no one knows what we will look like other than we will be like Christ, 1 John 3:2. There is no physical description of those in the lake of fire as what is given is metaphorically in its description of a place of burning sulfur, devastation and torment for eternity and that they have chosen their own destruction as death meaning Spiritual death (separation from God) and hell meaning the actual grave where they are at when the physical body dies are cast into the lake of fire being the second death as their names were not found in the Lambs book of life, Rev 20:11-15.

 

[Jim Parker]

There is no physical existence in the Kingdom of God or in the New Jerusalem as flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50,

That is a false understanding based on the Platonic/ neo-Platonic notion of dualism in the the opposition of spirit and matterwith sth spirit being good and matter being evil. It is part of the Plato's teaching that the soul is the "real" person which is trapped in a material body and that salvation is the escape of the soul from the body. These ideas erroneously inserted into western theology by Augustine of Hippo and further developed by the scholastics (like Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury) who were enamored with Plato and Aristotle and contaminated the teaching of scripture with pagan concepts.
To the Jew, of whom Paul is our example,man is both body AND soul.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is very definitely physical existence in the Kingdom of God. Jesus has physical existence and He is in heaven.
Luk 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Act 1:9-11
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
If there is not physical existence in the kingdom of God then there was no need for the resurrection.
Jesus saves the entire man, both body and soul, because man is made up of body and soul.
At the resurrection we will be raised a "spiritual body."
1Co 15:42-54 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The resurrected body is like Christ's body. (1Jo 3:2)


iakov the fool

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Jim,
I do dislike the phrase, you almost got it, like the other party is not that intelligent.
When you use words like the 2nd death, death is the ending of life, fire destroys and the word is eternal destruction.
Now the argument that all are raised, is fine, because how else can you judge the difference between the righteous
and the sinners. But to then say, because one has been brought back to face judgement that means you are now
eternal is just one interpretation, which does not fit the language, in my view.

If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. Rev 14:9-11

Now let us work this through. If all sinners are to suffer the above fate, why single it out here
as if this is special for those who worship the beast and its image. For this they will have no
end to judgement. But this implies that there is an end for normal sinners.

So rather than proving your case rev 14:11 shows your case does not hold water.
God is just, and John understood destruction is destruction, while torment is very
different. If you claim all sinners are worshippers of the beast that is adding to scripture
I would suggest. God bless

 

[PeterJens]

Chessman

Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?”
15 Those who walk righteously
and speak what is right,
who reject gain from extortion
and keep their hands from accepting bribes,
Isaiah 33:14-15

The burning here appears to be Gods presence because the question is who can
stand in Gods presence which is like a consuming fire, everlasting burning.

So this verse does not apply to hell at all.
And quoting everlasting punishment, damnation is just there is no repreive, ie after a
period you will not be brought back, it does not mean you actually have not died or
been destroyed.

In fact the term everlasting destruction wins my point. Destruction is the taking of
something apart so it is no more. Everlasting torment, is the keeping of life but with
pain and trouble all the time. God has no problem saying some will have torment while
others are destroyed.. The clue is in the difference, quite simple really.

 

[chessman]

So this verse does not apply to hell at all.

The Biblical application of Is 33:14-15 is that the application of everlasting fire = an application of consuming fire to the unrighteous. The saved are clothed in righteousness. The unsaved are not. Simple really.

And quoting everlasting punishment, damnation is just there is no repreive, ie after a
period you will not be brought back, it does not mean you actually have not died or
been destroyed.

The killing of the body is distinct from the destruction of the soul in Hell.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

In fact the term everlasting destruction wins my point. Destruction is the taking of
something apart so it is no more.

Yes. The Biblical evidence for the destruction (versus the torture) of the lost in Hell stands unopposed by any Biblical teachings. Including the one and only verse that even mentions "torture" of the lost.

And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ... Here is the patient endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:9-10,12&version=LEB

The passage above is obviously a vision of the pre-judgment (versus post-judgment) reaping of the Earth prior to their judgment.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud, “Send out your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe!” And the one seated on the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:15-16&version=LEB

God has no problem saying some will have torment while
others are destroyed.

True. The Devil's and his demons' fate is clear:

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=LEB

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=LEB

 

[chessman]

In my own minds eye I see the lake of fire as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory.

Exactly how could the destroyed lost (both body and soul), Matt 10:28, "see" anything?

 

[for_his_glory]

Exactly how could the destroyed lost (both body and soul), Matt 10:28, "see" anything?

What I posted there was just my own thoughts as no one can truly know the exact of the lake of fire, but only a description of it being devastating place where ever it is and a place of eternal torment as those cast into it are forgotten by God forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is a false understanding based on the Platonic/ neo-Platonic notion of dualism in the the opposition of spirit and matterwith sth spirit being good and matter being evil. It is part of the Plato's teaching that the soul is the "real" person which is trapped in a material body and that salvation is the escape of the soul from the body. These ideas erroneously inserted into western theology by Augustine of Hippo and further developed by the scholastics (like Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury) who were enamored with Plato and Aristotle and contaminated the teaching of scripture with pagan concepts.
To the Jew, of whom Paul is our example,man is both body AND soul.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is very definitely physical existence in the Kingdom of God. Jesus has physical existence and He is in heaven.
Luk 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Act 1:9-11
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
If there is not physical existence in the kingdom of God then there was no need for the resurrection.
Jesus saves the entire man, both body and soul, because man is made up of body and soul.
At the resurrection we will be raised a "spiritual body."
1Co 15:42-54 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The resurrected body is like Christ's body. (1Jo 3:2)


iakov the fool

The natural body goes back to the dust of the ground from where it came and the breath/Spirit goes back to God, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. Those who are of God will be changed as we are raised with an incorruptible and immortal body, 1 Corinthians 15:52, but yet we do not know what we will look like other than we will look like Jesus when He appears as we will finally see Him as He is, 1 John 3:2. It will be a physical body, but nothing like what we have now in this flesh and blood body that is corrupt and can not inherit the Kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 15:50.

 

[Jim Parker]

When you use words like the 2nd death, death is the ending of life,

No. It is separation from God.
Dead people are currently walking around, working at jobs and raising families.
Those are the ones of whom Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead." (Mat 8:22; Luk 9:60)
Those who do not believe are "dead in trespasses and sin." (Eph 2:1)
God alone has life by His essence. (Jhn 1:4 In Him was life,)

But to then say, because one has been brought back to face judgement that means you are now eternal....

I didn't say that.
Scripture says that all will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52-53)
There is no argument after that.

The annihilation of the condemned is the heretical teaching of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. (The JWs are a spinoff from the SDAs)
Are you a member of either of those two organizations?

 

[Jim Parker]

It will be a physical body, but nothing like what we have now in this flesh and blood body that is corrupt and can not inherit the Kingdom of God

We will have a body that is exactly like Jesus' body.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

What we will NOT be is a disembodied soul that has been set free from its imprisonment in a material body as Plato et. al. taught.

 

[jasonc]

That is a false understanding based on the Platonic/ neo-Platonic notion of dualism in the the opposition of spirit and matterwith sth spirit being good and matter being evil. It is part of the Plato's teaching that the soul is the "real" person which is trapped in a material body and that salvation is the escape of the soul from the body. These ideas erroneously inserted into western theology by Augustine of Hippo and further developed by the scholastics (like Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury) who were enamored with Plato and Aristotle and contaminated the teaching of scripture with pagan concepts.
To the Jew, of whom Paul is our example,man is both body AND soul.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is very definitely physical existence in the Kingdom of God. Jesus has physical existence and He is in heaven.
Luk 24:39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Act 1:9-11
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
If there is not physical existence in the kingdom of God then there was no need for the resurrection.
Jesus saves the entire man, both body and soul, because man is made up of body and soul.
At the resurrection we will be raised a "spiritual body."
1Co 15:42-54 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The resurrected body is like Christ's body. (1Jo 3:2)


iakov the fool

It should be noted In jewry that the idea of a soul is including the flesh. It's clothing to that which isn't seen.

 

[Jim Parker]

It should be noted In jewry that the idea of a soul is including the flesh. It's clothing to that which isn't seen.

That is very different from the Greek philosophical idea of the soul being immortal, being the "real" person and being imprisoned in a (ugh!) material body. This is why the Athenians called Paul a "babbler"; he was teaching that the body would be raised immortal. They considered that a disaster.
Act 17:18 "Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” ..."

The church fathers for tat least he first 200 years are in agreement with the Jewish view. A human being is comprised of a soul and a body. Neither is a complete "real person" without the other.

Unfortunately, the biggest names in western theology (Augustine and Aquinas) incorporated the views of the Greek philosophers into their interpretation of Paul's letters thus sending the Roman church and, after them, the Protestant churches, on an entirely different trajectory resulting in totally different views of "original" sin, of the origin of death and evil, of the atonement. of salvation, and of how God interacts with creation.

Most Protestants are not aware of the extent to which Greek philosophy has influenced western (Rome/Protestant) Christianity. (I wasn't!)

iakov the fool

 

[PeterJens]

No. It is separation from God.
Dead people are currently walking around, working at jobs and raising families.
Those are the ones of whom Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead." (Mat 8:22; Luk 9:60)
Those who do not believe are "dead in trespasses and sin." (Eph 2:1)
God alone has life by His essence. (Jhn 1:4 In Him was life,)

I didn't say that.
Scripture says that all will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:52-53)
There is no argument after that.

The annihilation of the condemned is the heretical teaching of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. (The JWs are a spinoff from the SDAs)
Are you a member of either of those two organizations?

This is a matter of interpretation. Paul is saying to encourage believers, the dead will be raised incorruptable
and those still alive transformed. A sinner by definition is corrupted and impure, lost and without hope.
So they are very much corrupted. This is why if you say everyone is raised in perfection, this is my problem.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20:12

Looking at this verse the dead are still dead, they have not been given incorruptible bodies.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1 Cor 9:25

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Peter 1:4

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:23

Incorruptible here is associated only with the Kingdom of God, and not the dead and lost.
So claiming everyone is raised incorruptible cannot be true.

For me this gives definition to Pauls statement about the dead ( dead believers ) are raised incorruptible.
One could take a different view but I do not.

 

[Jim Parker]

This is why if you say everyone is raised in perfection, this is my problem.

I did not say that.
You are misreading what I write and inserting your own ideas.
Paul did not say we will be raised "perfect."
He said we all be raised immortal and incorruptible.
The only "perfect" being is God.

Rev 20:12
Looking at this verse the dead are still dead, they have not been given incorruptible bodies.

That verse does not address the teaching of being raised incorruptible.
You are arguing from silence; you are drawing a conclusion based on what the writer had nothing to say.
Again, you are inserting your ideas into what you read.

So claiming everyone is raised incorruptible cannot be true.

Then shall I conclude that you know more about the subject than Paul?
And are you also more knowledgeable also than the apostolic and early church fathers?
Pardon me if I am skeptical.

For me this gives definition to Pauls statement about the dead ( dead believers ) are raised incorruptible.
One could take a different view but I do not.

Your views are not definitive for Christian doctrine and praxis.
They are like the opinions and noses which all people have at least one.
2Ti 1:10... our Savior Jesus Christ, ... has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Co 15:54-55 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
By His resurrection, Christ has had victory over death and the grave. NO ONE stays dead.
At the 2nd coming of the LORD, "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." (1Co 15:26)

So, please answer my question: Are you a JW or SDA?

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

no one can truly know the exact of the lake of fire,

We can truly know that the Lake of Fire is the second death.

... This is the second death—the lake of fire.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:14&version=LEB

We can truly know that this second death is to be feared and why:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

“And I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after these things do not have anything more to do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:4-5&version=LEB

We can truly know that Paul was telling us "brothers" in Christ that "we" (not all corrupt mankind, the lost) will be raised imperishable.

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-52&version=LEB

We can truly know that the destruction of the lost (body and soul) in Hell is not a new church doctrine but one that goes back to the original disciples of Jesus and their immediate pupils;

"the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html


​

 

[for_his_glory]

We can truly know that the Lake of Fire is the second death.

... This is the second death—the lake of fire.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:14&version=LEB

We can truly know that this second death is to be feared and why:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

“And I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after these things do not have anything more to do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:4-5&version=LEB

We can truly know that Paul was telling us "brothers" in Christ that "we" (not all corrupt mankind, the lost) will be raised imperishable.

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-52&version=LEB

We can truly know that the destruction of the lost (body and soul) in Hell is not a new church doctrine but one that goes back to the original disciples of Jesus and their immediate pupils;

"the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html


​

I know it's the second death according to Rev 20:11-15. Scripture gives a metaphorical description. but yet no one could ever fathom what it will be like in all reality.