The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[GodsGrace]

You said: "I believe that no one can really know what lies beyond this life.

Except that we could go to be WITH God, or WITHOUT God."

My comment was in regard to that. "Except the Bible is much more clear than that. ;)"

Are you aware of Rev 20:11-15? That tells us more than your comment.

And your comment doesn't apply to believers. They will never be without God. Because Jesus promised: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Of course believers will be with God.
But in heaven or waiting in Hades in Abraham's bossom till the end?

I believe we go to heaven but many believe we will wait till the end of time.
You said the Bible is very clear.
How?

 

[chessman]

The Greek word for "destroy" includes the meaning of "to perish or lose", either figuratively or literally. So one cannot insist that it means that one is completely annihilated.

And beware of people. For they will hand you over to councils and whip you in their synagogues. And you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake— for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But whenever they hand you over, do not be anxious- about how or what you should speak. For what you should speak will be given to you in that hour.
...​

[A figurative meaning doesn’t seem reasonable given the context or ]

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul.​

[A figurative meaning doesn’t seem reasonable given the context or
...

But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:17-19,28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:17-19,28&version=DLNT

Nothing burns up in the lake of fire. Or the Bible would have said that.

It is written:

For indeed our God is a consuming fire.​

Hebrews 12:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 12:29&version=DLNT

and He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, having reduced- them -to-ashes by an overthrow, having made them an example of things coming to ungodly ones;​

2 Peter 2:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:6&version=DLNT

the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up.

 

[Kidron]

I have often wondered about the lake of fire and what it represents.

-
Jesus said to unbelievers.....specifically to the Pharisees, but contextually AND literally, its to all who are Christ rejectors.
He said...."YOU are of YOUR > FATHER the DEVIL, and the LUSTS of your Father you will Do".
So, we understand that Satan - Lucifer - The Devil, has a nature that is exactly the opposite of holiness.
Jesus is the Holy Lamb, and Satan is the unholy devil.
The 'Adamic" nature, is the "fallen" nature, that needs to be redeemed and resurrected. = The Cross.
This is the "state" everyone finds themselves in, after they are born. = "fallen nature" = "adamic nature".
So, the "fallen one", that is Lucifer, who "fell", ....he fell not only from heaven, but from his sinless standing of holiness.
He BECAME Satan, the Devil, by this "fallen" process, and so his NATURE became depraved and sinful and unholy.
THIS, is the nature that all of us have, that is referred to as the ADAMIC nature, or the "fallen" nature.
Satan was the first to have this nature, and Adam was the first Man, who became it.
"fallen nature" is a spiritual state...... or the condition of being "lost".
And because a man "fell" (sinned) and thus created the adamic - sinful nature situation for us all, so then it is that another Man, the 2nd Adam, came to redeem Mankind by supplying us with HIS Nature, = "the gift of righteousness".
THIS, is salvation.
Salvation, is God literally reinventing our fallen spirituality by redemption, = by converting us into the literal righteousness of Christ.
THIS, is salvation.
"The Power to become the Son's of God", is the Atonement.
Its a gift that Jesus died to offer "all who would come".
"To as many as RECEIVED HIM (Jesus)...., God gave THEM (Believers)..... the POWER (atonement) to BECOME (born again).. the Sons of God".
This is Salvation.
This is "Grace".
This is "Redemption".

So, where does hell come in?
Where does it fit within this process?
Well, the NT says that the lake of fire is provided for the Devil and his angels.
To be more specific, its supplied and waiting for each and all who have not been redeemed from their fallen nature by the Blood of the Lamb, and thus DIE with the Devils (adamic) fallen nature, and end up where He ends up, because that is where the unholy family go.
This is why Jesus said "Your FATHER the devil", and that is very specific...and it explains completely why born again Christians go to where their Father is, after they die, or (rapture) and The Devil's children (unborn again) (Christ rejectors) go where their DADDY ends up.
Heaven is a place for one "type" of spiritual family, and Hell is the place for another "type" of spiritual family.
Dont be that one.
Go with God.
You take Christ, God takes you.
= Salvation.
Simple, Free, Eternal.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course believers will be with God.
But in heaven or waiting in Hades in Abraham's bossom till the end?

\
Didn't you know that after His death, Jesus descended and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Pet 3:19) and when He ascended He led captive a host of captives and gave gifts to men (Eph 4:8)? That means He emptied hades of the souls of all believers and took them to heaven, where ALL believers who die after His ascension go after death, waiting for the rapture.

So, there are no souls in Abraham's bosom at this time. Only those unbelieving souls who are sent to 'torments' until the Great White Throne judgment, where they will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.

I believe we go to heaven but many believe we will wait till the end of time.

You are correct, and many are incorrect.

You said the Bible is very clear.
How?

In what I've just said.

Why do you claim to believe that we go to heaven? Just a guess? Or did the Bible inform your view?

 

[FreeGrace]

And beware of people. For they will hand you over to councils and whip you in their synagogues. And you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake— for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But whenever they hand you over, do not be anxious- about how or what you should speak. For what you should speak will be given to you in that hour.
...​

[A figurative meaning doesn’t seem reasonable given the context or ]

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul.​

[A figurative meaning doesn’t seem reasonable given the context or
...

But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:17-19,28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:17-19,28&version=DLNT

It is written:

For indeed our God is a consuming fire.​

Hebrews 12:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 12:29&version=DLNT

and He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, having reduced- them -to-ashes by an overthrow, having made them an example of things coming to ungodly ones;​

2 Peter 2:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:6&version=DLNT

the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up.

Do you believe in annihilation of the soul?

 

[chessman]

Do you believe in annihilation of the soul?

If by annihilation you mean the total destruction of both the body and the soul of the lost after the lost are raised, finally judged, then suffering the full wrath of God and cast into Hell, then yes.

If you by annihilation mean they just simply cease to exist, then no. The disciples didn’t figuratively die, they literally died.

Thus, it’s always better just to use the language that the Bible uses to avoid any confusion. And yes, that language can be figurative at times. I just don’t see how Matt 10:28 is one of those times.

I’ve changed my mind from their punishment being a life of eternal conscious torment to that of a 2nd death consisting of eternal destruction of both body and soul (this time) and never to be raised again. Before I’d read the Bible cover-to-cover a few times and spent time studying Hell, I kind-of went with the flow thinking that there must be ECT teachings somewhere in the Bible or people wouldn’t teach it. In reality, it ain’t there.

It is true as you pointed out that the word apóllymi is translated
as “ruin” in certain contexts and when speaking about objects, not persons. However, destruction really is the primary meaning (and exclusive use when dealing with people).

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely(note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction,
http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm​

I believe the disciples understood Jesus saying quite literally, not figuratively.

It has been noted that Matt 10:28 says “able to” not ‘will’ destroy both the body and soul, which is also true. However, if you notice: 1) He was talking to His disciples “His friends” not to the lost.
2) the parallel in Luke’s account does say He “will show” them this authority. Which is why I believe He will show it, not just say He’s able to.

“And I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after these things do not have anything more to do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:4-5&version=LEB

 

[FreeGrace]

If by annihilation you mean the total destruction of both the body and the soul of the lost after the lost are raised, finally judged, then suffering the full wrath of God and cast into Hell, then yes.

If you by annihilation mean they just simply cease to exist, then no. The disciples didn’t figuratively die, they literally died.

I'm not seeing any difference between "total destruction of body and soul after the lost are raised" and "simply ceasing to exist". Could you please explain. Because "total destruction of body and soul" does mean "simply ceasing to exist", does it not?

I’ve changed my mind from their punishment being a life of eternal conscious torment to that of a 2nd death consisting of eternal destruction of both body and soul (this time) and never to be raised again.

Now you've changed some words. First it was "total destruction of body and soul", and now it's "eternal destruction of body and soul".

So, what is "eternal destruction"? How long does that last? If one is literal here, it would mean lasting for eternity, which is what the Bible teaches about those in the lake of fire.

Before I’d read the Bible cover-to-cover a few times and spent time studying Hell, I kind-of went with the flow thinking that there must be ECT teachings somewhere in the Bible or people wouldn’t teach it. In reality, it ain’t there.

I see it clearly in Rev 20:10-15.

Satan and the beast and false prophet will be tormented forever and ever, in the lake of fire. The immediate context moves on to the Great White Throne judgment, where those without the gift of eternal life are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[chessman]

Could you please explain. Because "total destruction of body and soul" does mean "simply ceasing to exist", does it not?

No. Think of the example Peter and Jude give for us to use of the cites Sodom and Gomorrah. These cities did not ‘simply cease to exist’ one night. They were totally destroyed by fire.

Now you've changed some words. First it was "total destruction of body and soul", and now it's "eternal destruction of body and soul".

Total destruction of the body and soul for all eternity.

So, what is "eternal destruction"? How long does that last?

Forever. Versus the 1st death which last a finite number of hours/days/months/years/centuries depending on the time between when a lost person dies and their resurrection. The 2nd death lasts forever.

I see it clearly in Rev 20:10-15.

Satan and the beast and false prophet will be tormented forever and ever, in the lake of fire. The immediate context moves on to the Great White Throne judgment, where those without the gift of eternal life are cast into the lake of fire.

Correct. Satan and his demons remain tormented forever in the Lake of Fire within John’s vision. Whereas he sees the lost raised bodily to face judgment and their punishment (said to be their 2nd death). This death, however, is of their raised body and soul. And this time it’s forever (total destruction of their body and souls in Hell as Jesus says in Matt 10:28) versus a finite time of only the body.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

Why should one do that?
Those languages are foreign to most of us.

How so when the new testament was written in Greek?

 

[billybalke]

No. Think of the example Peter and Jude give for us to use of the cites Sodom and Gomorrah. These cities did not ‘simply cease to exist’ one night. They were totally destroyed by fire.


Total destruction of the body and soul for all eternity.


Forever. Versus the 1st death which last a finite number of hours/days/months/years/centuries depending on the time between when a lost person dies and their resurrection. The 2nd death lasts forever.


Correct. Satan and his demons remain tormented forever in the Lake of Fire within John’s vision. Whereas he sees the lost raised bodily to face judgment and their punishment (said to be their 2nd death). This death, however, is of their raised body and soul. And this time it’s forever (total destruction of their body and souls in Hell as Jesus says in Matt 10:28) versus a finite time of only the body.

I don't think so!

 

[whatgoeshere?]

Audio The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching

There is a sound track on the youtube site that claims to have been a recording made by miners in someplace like Serbia or something. They were excavating and heard this awful sound from under the earth. They recorded it because it was so eerie and now it is said to be the screams of the damned suffering Hell. Something about Hell being in the center of the earth according to Bible passages?
I'll see if I can find it. It has been awhile so it may not be there anymore.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

It starts at about 3:03

 

[FreeGrace]

No. Think of the example Peter and Jude give for us to use of the cites Sodom and Gomorrah. These cities did not ‘simply cease to exist’ one night. They were totally destroyed by fire.

But again, total destruction means to cease to exist.

Total destruction of the body and soul for all eternity.

Once total destruction occurs, eternity has no meaning. Total destruction means to cease to exist.

Forever. Versus the 1st death which last a finite number of hours/days/months/years/centuries depending on the time between when a lost person dies and their resurrection. The 2nd death lasts forever.

We know that spiritual death is not loss of existence, but separation from God. While conscious.

Correct. Satan and his demons remain tormented forever in the Lake of Fire within John’s vision. Whereas he sees the lost raised bodily to face judgment and their punishment (said to be their 2nd death). This death, however, is of their raised body and soul. And this time it’s forever (total destruction of their body and souls in Hell as Jesus says in Matt 10:28) versus a finite time of only the body.

I'm still not seeing any difference between "total destruction" of soul and ceasing to exist.

If something hs been totally destroyed, does it still exist? My understanding is no, but it seems yours is yes.

 

[WIP]

But again, total destruction means to cease to exist.


Once total destruction occurs, eternity has no meaning. Total destruction means to cease to exist.


We know that spiritual death is not loss of existence, but separation from God. While conscious.


I'm still not seeing any difference between "total destruction" of soul and ceasing to exist.

If something hs been totally destroyed, does it still exist? My understanding is no, but it seems yours is yes.

Is it possible that maybe with total destruction the components are still there but no longer recognizable as before. For example, if I totally destroy a car such that all the parts are in a heap, the car still remains although it is no longer a functioning car but just a heap of parts. Just trying to reason an answer to your question...not trying to enter the debate.

 

[chessman]

I'm still not seeing any difference between "total destruction" of soul and ceasing to exist.

You might start by not changing some of the words from what I said. We were discussing the difference between “just simply ceasing to exist” versus what occurred to Sodom and Gomorrah. Then move on to what actually occurred in this example we are told is what awaits the lost:

Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the Lord; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace. Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.​

Genesis 19:24-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:24-29&version=NASB

If something hs been totally destroyed, does it still exist?

No. As exampled by the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah no longer existing.

However, if something has been totally destroyed by fire and brimstone (all the cites, the inhabitants, even what grew on the ground) did it JUST SIMPLY cease to exist? Or was there more to their destruction than just one day here, next day no longer here. I say more than “just simply ceasing to exist”.

 

[chessman]

For example, if I totally destroy a car such that all the parts are in a heap, the car still remains although it is no longer a functioning car but just a heap of parts.

Only if you change the definition of a car:

Definition of car. 1 :a vehicle moving on wheels:

a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people.​

I believe the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced more than simply making it into a heap of disassembled parts.

 

[chessman]

For example, if I totally destroy a car such that all the parts are in a heap, the car still remains although it is no longer a functioning car but just a heap of parts.

Definition of car. 1 :a vehicle moving on wheels:

a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people.​

The cites of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced more destruction than simply making it a heap of no longer functioning parts. And that’s the example of the destruction specifically called out by Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Is it possible that maybe with total destruction the components are still there but no longer recognizable as before. For example, if I totally destroy a car such that all the parts are in a heap, the car still remains although it is no longer a functioning car but just a heap of parts. Just trying to reason an answer to your question...not trying to enter the debate.

How would that work for the immaterial soul?

 

[FreeGrace]

You might start by not changing some of the words from what I said. We were discussing the difference between “just simply ceasing to exist” versus what occurred to Sodom and Gomorrah. Then move on to what actually occurred in this example we are told is what awaits the lost:

Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the Lord; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace. Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.​

Genesis 19:24-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:24-29&version=NASB

I wasn't changing anything. I'm trying to understand the difference between ceasing to exist, and being totally destroyed. I'm not interested in the mechanism that causes either one, but just the final end product.

I then asked:
"If something hs been totally destroyed, does it still exist?"

No. As exampled by the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah no longer existing.

Then that would lead to the idea of annihilation, would it not?

However, if something has been totally destroyed by fire and brimstone (all the cites, the inhabitants, even what grew on the ground) did it JUST SIMPLY cease to exist?

Again, I'm not interested in the mechanism, but the outcome. So after S & G were totally destroyed, they certainly ceased to exist, right?

Or was there more to their destruction than just one day here, next day no longer here. I say more than “just simply ceasing to exist”.

This is putting emphasis on the mechanism that led to ceasing to exist.

I still don't see any difference between the final end product between being totally destroyed and God simply speaking something out of existence (no longer existing). The end result is the very same thing.

 

[WIP]

Only if you change the definition of a car:

Definition of car. 1 :a vehicle moving on wheels:

a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people.​

I believe the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced more than simply making it into a heap of disassembled parts.

What I was trying to illustrate, maybe with a poor example, even though the car parts by themselves do not a car make, they have not ceased to exist and so in that sense, the car still exists, although not in whole.