The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[PeterJens]

I said:
"How in the world can anyone come to such a misunderstood conclusion from what Jesus said. If the truth is that if any recipient of eternal life can lose it, then what Jesus said is not only irrelevant, immaterial, but actually WRONG."
There is no dissonance. The mere charge needs to be backed up with evidence.
And you didn't answer my question. And because Jesus DID say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, so IF any recipient DID perish, then what Jesus said is irrelevant, immaterial and quite WRONG.

[edited] Those who believe have eternal life, will not perish( the 2nd death ).
But to have eternal life, life that does not end, you need to stay in belief.
Jesus will save, future tense, those who are found in faith.
We walk in faith and communion today, but we are still on earth, still awaiting the resurrection and
actual physical entry into the Kingdom. When this takes place, future tense, we will be fully receivers
of the promise, but until then it is by faith.
Now conditions and background are all relevant to God. It is why it took 2,000 years of revelation to
get somewhere with Israel. Some believe it is actually written on the back of a cigerate box, and is
very simple, except if they dislike you, it is impossible to understand, lol.

The point about cognative disonance, the jumping from one idea to another without the appropriate
gaps and logic, those who do it never see it, or else they would not be suffering from it.
This is also why the term charge, as if it is a crime to point out these leaps.

I met a guy who said because I believed x I was a liar about everything else and evil.
Again this is cognative disonance. One disconnected idea or belief does not then make someone
morally and intellectually bankcrupt. But in their world, it made sense, because it gave them an
excuse to ignore the obvious evidence they were wrong and to say it was just "satan" lying to them.

So my point is simple. Eternal life, is life without end. It only exists as you live it, and ends only
when you die. Another way of putting it, jumping off a tall building does not kill you, it is the impact
with the ground that does.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Since you replied to a post that was to someone else, I figured you were following the discussion. If you were then you'd know how the Scriptures were misused. You said,



By way of inference you assumed certain conclusions from those passages, the assumptions are wrong.

you are making the same mistake they are, you are making conclusions of aion, without evidence.

 

[Butch5]

you are making the same mistake they are, you are making conclusions of aion, without evidence.

No I'm not. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If it was eternity it wouldn't end.

 

[godsquadgeek]

No I'm not. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If it was eternity it wouldn't end.

it can be both, as I quoted in my first posts to you. It can mean age, or endless ages like it does about God's glory and about Hell.

 

[Butch5]

it can be both, as I quoted in my first posts to you. It can mean age, or endless ages like it does about God's glory and about Hell.

No, it can't A word cannot have opposing meanings. The word would be useless for communication.

 

[godsquadgeek]

No, it can't A word cannot have opposing meanings. The word would be useless for communication.

there are 164 homographs in the english language, they are words that have more than one meaning but are spelled the same. But Aion may or may not be a homograph, and it doesn't matter. Many times word contexts dictate the meaning of the word anyway.

 

[Butch5]

there are 164 homographs in the english language, they are words that have more than one meaning.

Sure. Words can have different meanings, just not opposing meanings. If you have word xyz and it means yes and no, how do you communicate?

Man 1-Did you go to the store?
Man 2- xyz

Man 1 still has no clue whether or not man 1 went to the store.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Sure. Words can have different meanings, just not opposing meanings. If you have word xyz and it means yes and no, how do you communicate?

Man 1-Did you go to the store?
Man 2- xyz

Man 1 still has no clue whether or not man 1 went to the store.

So your saying that every aion or age is of the exact same duration? ( because no age can be limitless?)How convenient for your argument, but simply not true. Unless you can present biblical proof? I await your response. I however provided a dozen of cases in the bible where aion is limitless, yet you refused to respond directly to it, but conveniently dodge it out of cognitive dissonance. So how are we to come to a conclusion when you're skirting around the issues?

 

[Butch5]

So your saying that every aion or age is of the exact same duration? ( because no age can be limitless?)How convenient for your argument, but simply not true. Unless you can present biblical proof? I await your response. I however provided a dozen of cases in the bible where aion is limitless, yet you refused to respond directly to it, but conveniently dodge.

Where did you see every aion was exactly the same? I didn't say that. An age, by definition is an undefined period of time. It could relatively short or extremely long. Just because the length of an age isn't defined doesn't mean it means eternal. The argument, aion is used of God and God is eternal therefore aion means eternal is doesn't follow. It's using one's theology to define the term.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Where did you see every aion was exactly the same? I didn't say that. An age, by definition is an undefined period of time. It could relatively short or extremely long. Just because the length of an age isn't defined doesn't mean it means eternal. The argument, aion is used of God and God is eternal therefore aion means eternal is doesn't follow. It's using one's theology to define the term.

Of course we use theology to define the term, context is key for any definition as I proved with homographs. If you don't define words by context than you define them by your own opinions which is an appeal to authority. If aion is an undefined period of time, then it's not out of context for it to have time that goes infinitely in one direction. Unless you wish to arbitrarily change your definitions and move the bars.

 

[n2thelight]

Just because a soul is destroyed does not mean it ceases to exist. Please prove this with scripture.

I did ,yet you seem to think (DESTROYED) dosn't mean what it says

And again I ask where in all of of scripture does it says the soul is immortal?
Look at the below verse

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Why would we have to put on,if we already were?

 

[brujaq]

Luke 16:28-31 ... Where is this rich mans soul now ?

 

[chessman]

Then who is the "man of lawlessness" of 2 Thess 2:3?

The man of lawlessness of 2 Thess 2.

Are you asking how this “man of lawlessness” is revealed within John’s vision? I’ve pointed it out several times already.

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings.​

Revelation 17:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9&version=DLNT

It's obvious from the rest of the context, since v.11-15 leads to all humans who don't have eternal life being cast into the SAME lake of fire.

V11 begins a separate vision. And Yes they are cast into the same Lake of Fire (by Jesus) which is their second death (which proves men aren’t like angels who cannot die). They go to destruction. There’s every reason to observe that this destruction will be shown to destroy both body and soul.

There's no reason to assume that the humans get off with ceasing to exist while the angels are tormented forever and ever.

There’s no reason to assume that men without Christ are doomed to anything other than eternal destruction of both the body and the soul. And there’s no reason to assume that destruction is not fearful or eternal or is ‘getting off’ with a lighter punishment than is due.

 

[FreeGrace]

[edited]

Those who believe have eternal life, will not perish( the 2nd death ).

Absolutely true. (See, I know the truth)

But to have eternal life, life that does not end, you need to stay in belief.

OK, this is where we depart. What verse says this? In fact, none do. Eternal life is possessed on the basis of faith in Christ. So says John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47,54, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13.

Combine that with what Jesus said in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish.

There are NO verses that speak of ANY requirement to "stay in belief". Yes, there are a number of verses encouraging/commanding believer to "continue in the faith" etc, but NONE about eternal life given only to those who stay in belief.

Think about it for a sec. If that were true, then eternal life could NOT be given until the end of one's life, after proving that they did stay in belief. Yet Jesus was a clear as could be about WHEN one POSSESSES eternal life in Jn 5:24. Those who believe HAVE eternal life.

Jesus will save, future tense, those who are found in faith.

Verse, please.

So my point is simple. Eternal life, is life without end.

We agree on this point.

It only exists as you live it, and ends only when you die.

Unfortunately, this make no sense. Eternal life doesn't "end only when you die". And again, where is the verse?

Another way of putting it, jumping off a tall building does not kill you, it is the impact
with the ground that does.

What does this have to do with the discussion of eternal life? It seems as though you're saying you have eternal life until you die. Which makes no sense.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I did ,yet you seem to think (DESTROYED) dosn't mean what it says

And again I ask where in all of of scripture does it says the soul is immortal?
Look at the below verse

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Why would we have to put on,if we already were?

that's just talking about the body, the flesh, which will have a glorified body. Nothing to do with the soul ( what we are talking about). Souls in hell right now by and large don't have bodies and will get them at the 2nd resurrection of the wicked for punishment. But souls are immaterial, and don't have mass. Time requires mass, so God starts our time, when he gives us mass, at conception. And we never stop having time at that point because our souls which are born at conception are outside of time and space. According to Einsteins theory of relativity that is.

 

[FreeGrace]

The man of lawlessness of 2 Thess 2.

Are you asking how this “man of lawlessness” is revealed within John’s vision? I’ve pointed it out several times already.

My point was that the Bible DOES describe the "anti-christ" or beast as a MAN when you claimed it didn't.

There’s no reason to assume that men without Christ are doomed to anything other than eternal destruction of both the body and the soul.

How long does this "eternal destruction" of the soul take before the soul ceases to exist, in your view?

And there’s no reason to assume that destruction is not fearful or eternal

My point exactly! By being eternal, it has to be experienced. Once the subject ceases to exist, there is no longer any relevant concept of time, including eternity.

Annihilation is rather similar to what atheists believe. They will cease to exist when they die physically. The only difference with your view is that there will be some kind of process of destruction that preceeds the moment one ceases to exist.

or is ‘getting off’ with a lighter punishment than is due.

How is only suffering for a period of time not a "lighter punishment" than suffering for eternity? I'd like an explanation of that.

 

[Butch5]

Of course we use theology to define the term, context is key for any definition as I proved with homographs. If you don't define words by context than you define them by your own opinions which is an appeal to authority. If aion is an undefined period of time, then it's not out of context for it to have time that goes infinitely in one direction. Unless you wish to arbitrarily change your definitions and move the bars.

Using theology to define the terms is why there is so much error. This word is a perfect example. If you do a study of the Hebrew word "Olam" You'll find that it's definition is basically to the horizon. What can be seen to the horizon. It didn't mean eternity. When the Hebrew text was translated to Greek the scholars used the word aion in place of olam. This is the idea being conveyed. In Hebrew one could use olam twice to indicate a longer time. Basically, to the horizon and beyond. In the Greek text this was translated, αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, which in Eglish is ages of the ages.

Yes, context determines what words mean, not theology. While the concept of an age could possibly allow for an endless time, we can't define the word that way. If we say it means eternal, we have a problem where it clearly doesn't.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, I’m saying two horse riders are seen by John in a vision thrown into a lake of fire. John says these horse riders’ names are Hades and Death.


Correct.
The interpretation of this vision is the second death of the lost. The destruction Jesus says fear while not fearing the first death. Because the first is merely the killing of the body but not the soul. The second, however, will be shown to be destruction of both the body and soul.

Rev 6: 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Reread this again. There are not two horse riders, but only one rider who is called Death. Following Death is Hell (Hades) which means one that is laid in a grave after they have physically died, (Strong’s Exhausted Concordance Hebrew #7585 – Greek # 86). Death is not a final destination, but a state of being until Christ returns and all, saint and sinner, will hear the voice of Christ to raise from their graves as some will be raised to eternal life and some to eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29.

The purpose of the four horses and their riders is in correlation to all the devastating events during the seven trumpets sounding that will cause many to become desperate as they bow down to the son of perdition being a false Christ and will take its mark, Rev13. This goes back to an extensive study of the four chariots of Zechariah 6:1-8 ending in Rev 6:1-8. Notice both chapter and verses are the same between Zechariah and Rev.

Death being all who have died from the beginning of time are still in their graves and in Rev 20:14 after all are called out of their graves, John 5:28,29, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as there will be no more need of them.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Using theology to define the terms is why there is so much error. This word is a perfect example. If you do a study of the Hebrew word "Olam" You'll find that it's definition is basically to the horizon. What can be seen to the horizon. It didn't mean eternity. When the Hebrew text was translated to Greek the scholars used the word aion in place of olam. This is the idea being conveyed. In Hebrew one could use olam twice to indicate a longer time. Basically, to the horizon and beyond. In the Greek text this was translated, αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, which in Eglish is ages of the ages.

Yes, context determines what words mean, not theology. While the concept of an age could possibly allow for an endless time, we can't define the word that way. If we say it means eternal, we have a problem where it clearly doesn't.

So God is wrong when He says we have eternal life (aionion)? We must use the simplistic definition of "age" in all these verses? Is heaven only a finite period of time?...

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

and God is wrong when He says His glory is eternal (aion)?

VERSE LIST

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.

Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."

1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].

Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."

John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."

John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."

Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."

Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."

2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."

Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

 

[chessman]

Reread this again. There are not two horse riders, but only one rider who is called Death. Following Death is Hell (Hades) which means one that is laid in a grave after they have physically died,

And another horse— a fire-red one — went out. And to the one sitting on it, authority was given to him to take the peace from the earth, and that they will slay one another. And a great sword was given to him. And when He opened the third seal, I heard the third living-creature saying, “Come”. And I saw, and behold— there was a black horse, and the one sitting on it holding a balance-scale in his hand. And when He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living-creature saying, “Come”. And I saw, and behold— there was a pale-green horse, and the one sitting on it. Death was the name for him. And Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild-beasts of the earth.​

Revelation 6:4-5,7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 6:4-5,7-8&version=DLNT