The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[godsquadgeek]

Using theology to define the terms is why there is so much error. This word is a perfect example. If you do a study of the Hebrew word "Olam" You'll find that it's definition is basically to the horizon. What can be seen to the horizon. It didn't mean eternity. When the Hebrew text was translated to Greek the scholars used the word aion in place of olam. This is the idea being conveyed. In Hebrew one could use olam twice to indicate a longer time. Basically, to the horizon and beyond. In the Greek text this was translated, αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, which in Eglish is ages of the ages.

Yes, context determines what words mean, not theology. While the concept of an age could possibly allow for an endless time, we can't define the word that way. If we say it means eternal, we have a problem where it clearly doesn't.

secondly, I think you may be wrong as to your definition that Aion only means an age of limited duration. Here is a lengthy five page or so essay of various quotes from different lexicons on supporting that this definition is wrong:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10FoQzw2ucJImYZE_bJ1tENjvHC88ZA-FYB5rC75em60

 

[for_his_glory]

No it doesn’t.

It calls The Dragon, The Beast AND The False Prophet demons doing signs:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

The three unclean spirits are spirits of demons that proceed out of the mouth of Satan who gives power and authority to his unholy trinity that is Satan, the beast out of the sea which is the Luciferian government system of economic, political and religious power worked through man and the false prophet, being the son of perdition, who speaks lies and teaches a twisted word of God that deceives the nations.

These three spirits of demons send out wondrous signs to the political leaders (kings) of the earth and throughout all the nations as the signs are that of the monumental greatness of this modern day tower of Babel with its seat in Jerusalem as they make a name for themselves setting themselves above all that is God's, Genesis 11:1-9; Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

 

[for_his_glory]

Unbelievable. Thirty-four pages debating what Jesus died to insure we'd never know.
Apples and oranges at this point isn't it? People who die in their sins burn for eternity, or they don't. People who die in their sins are destroyed as that soul consciousness that use to inhabit a body that had a name and a family, after suffering regret for not holding faith in Christ.
Or, people return to the dust of the ground from whence they came, and their soul returns to the one that gave it. As scripture says.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 and 12:7
One part of that eternal sovereign power is the abyss, where that soul will know nothing. The other is paradise. Because God is all things. He's in heaven and he's in Hell. Psalm 139.

Everything including Satan was created by God. There is no place we can go in this life or outside of it and escape God. That's in Psalm 139 also. But we who are redeemed in Christ aren't going to Hell. Why then are you all going to the extent of 34 pages to argue which one of you knows what they're talking about when they discuss a place they'll never see?

Why, To give warning to those who are not of Christ that come into forums like this as many are seeking, but not yet finding.

BTW, why are you here on page 34 if it's not for the fact of sharing in the conversations?

 

[for_his_glory]

And another horse— a fire-red one — went out. And to the one sitting on it, authority was given to him to take the peace from the earth, and that they will slay one another. And a great sword was given to him. And when He opened the third seal, I heard the third living-creature saying, “Come”. And I saw, and behold— there was a black horse, and the one sitting on it holding a balance-scale in his hand. And when He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living-creature saying, “Come”. And I saw, and behold— there was a pale-green horse, and the one sitting on it. Death was the name for him. And Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild-beasts of the earth.​

Revelation 6:4-5,7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 6:4-5,7-8&version=DLNT

Notice where it reads, one sitting on the horse, not two as Hades was following death who was sitting on the horse. Death has its purpose and Hades has its own purpose. Two different events.

 

[chessman]

Notice where it reads, one sitting on the horse, not two

Please notice the # of horse riders visioned by John in Rev 6.

 

[brujaq]

 

[chessman]

The three unclean spirits are spirits of demons that proceed out of the mouth of Satan

Why do you do this???

If you actually read the Text, three unclean spirits proceed out of The Dragon (a demon) AND out of the mouth of The Beast (a demon) AND out of the mouth of The False Prophet (a demon). Three mouths, not one mouth.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet.​

Revelation 16:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13&version=DLNT

Because “they” are demons (plural):

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNT

 

[for_his_glory]

Please notice the # of horse riders visioned by John in Rev 6.

Yes, there are only four horses and four riders. It states that Hades only followed after death, not that Hades was riding double on the same horse with death or even had its own horse. When death strikes and kills Hades is where the dead body is lowered into.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why do you do this???

If you actually read the Text, three unclean spirits proceed out of The Dragon (a demon) AND out of the mouth of The Beast (a demon) AND out of the mouth of The False Prophet (a demon). Three mouths, not one mouth.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet.​

Revelation 16:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13&version=DLNT

Because “they” are demons (plural):

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNT

Yes, they are the spirits of demons, but what you are not seeing is that these demon spirits work through or speak through the mouth of actual men. Satan always does the opposite of God so these lying signs and wonders will be performed through the men these demon spirits control. These men are not demon posses, but allow Satan to work through them as they are that of the Luciferian priesthood, which is a study within itself, but can't be brought to light here for the ToS will not allow it.

 

[godsquadgeek]

First, no body will be destroyed in hell. Our physical bodies deteriorate when we die. By the time the soul gets to the GWT judgment, only molecules of their bodies will be left. So the body never gets to hell.
.

how do the wicked stand before God to be judged if their feet were dissolved in their graves? I believe they will too be resurrected in the final resurrection of the wicked unto judgement (resurrection #2- the tares)

Revelation 20:12 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

sorry for the large caps. mistake. I agree with the rest of your post, good post.

 

[n2thelight]

that's just talking about the body, the flesh, which will have a glorified body. Nothing to do with the soul ( what we are talking about). Souls in hell right now by and large don't have bodies and will get them at the 2nd resurrection of the wicked for punishment. But souls are immaterial, and don't have mass. Time requires mass, so God starts our time, when he gives us mass, at conception. And we never stop having time at that point because our souls which are born at conception are outside of time and space. According to Einsteins theory of relativity that is.

At death,or at the return of Christ,which happens first,the flesh is gone,as Paul says we have two bodies

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

By placing the Word of God in your mind, it becomes the standard for all of your thought, and it directs the intents of your mind, which is you heart. Christ is the Living Word, and He can discern the intent of your mind, you can't fool Him. Within man's soul is his spirit, and the spirit is the intellect part of His thought process.

You have to be able to separate those things to understand the resurrection. Paul is now going to explain our flesh body to us, not the soul, the spirit, or our thought process, but our flesh and blood body.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only one those souls that have eternal life, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.

So the flesh body must be put aside before we put on our incorruptible body that will not age through the entire Millennium age. The Word "Mortal" again means "liable to die". The object of this verse is the body, and the corruptible flesh body must be changed into the body that doesn't grow old. All through this fifteenth chapter we have documented that Christ is a live, and that he lives, and it is for that reason that we are Christians. It would be senseless to be Christians if Christ did not come out of the tomb.

"This mortal must put on immortality," again means that the soul that is mortal must also put on immortality. Christ taught in Matthew 10:25-28.

You say souls don't have a body,scripture says we don't have a soul,we are a soul,we a body for the soul while in the flesh

The flesh will not rise,it returns to dust............

 

[n2thelight]

how do the wicked stand before God to be judged if their feet were dissolved in their graves? I believe they will too be resurrected in the final resurrection of the wicked unto judgement (resurrection #2- the tares)

Revelation 20:12 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

sorry for the large caps. mistake. I agree with the rest of your post, good post.

You not understanding the dead here being spoken of.....

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.

 

[Butch5]

So God is wrong when He says we have eternal life (aionion)? We must use the simplistic definition of "age" in all these verses? Is heaven only a finite period of time?...

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

and God is wrong when He says His glory is eternal (aion)?

VERSE LIST

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.

Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."

1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].

Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."

John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."

John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."

Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."

Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."

2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."

Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

So, your question is, is God wrong when He uses your definition of eternal life? God isn't wrong. What's right or wrong is our understanding of what aionios is. Do you not see the error in taking one's theology and then injecting that into the definition of Biblical words?

 

[Butch5]

secondly, I think you may be wrong as to your definition that Aion only means an age of limited duration. Here is a lengthy five page or so essay of various quotes from different lexicons on supporting that this definition is wrong:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10FoQzw2ucJImYZE_bJ1tENjvHC88ZA-FYB5rC75em60

Here's a supporting document suggesting that aion means an age.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)

Can you show me where these burning cities are located? Do you have video of them? According to Scripture, not "scholars" these cities are an example of aionios fire. These cities are not still burning. How do you explain an eternally burning fire that isn't there?

 

[brujaq]

Jude 1:6-7 pretty much sums it up .. Key words , suffering, vengeance, eternal fire ...

 

[chessman]

Notice where it reads, one sitting on the horse, not two as Hades was following death who was sitting on the horse. Death has its purpose and Hades has its own purpose. Two different events.

That’s My point. John named these two visionaries (Death and Hades) then visioned them both being cast into the Lake of Fire (another vision) then gave us that vision’s meaning for the lost (2nd death, destruction) in accordance with Jesus’ previous teaching on what He’s authority will show (He’s ability to destroy both the body and soul in Hell).

Simple really.

 

[chessman]

what you are not seeing is that these demon spirits work through or speak through the mouth of actual men.

Oh, I’ve been pointing this out since page 10. The heads (including it’s mouth) represents men, not The Beasts themselves (which are demons per the Scripture).

The seven heads represent seven kingdoms and the 10 horns represent complete world government. But my point is, these governments get their power from The Dragon (Satan), The Beast and The False Prophet.

 

[FreeGrace]

how do the wicked stand before God to be judged if their feet were dissolved in their graves? I believe they will too be resurrected in the final resurrection of the wicked unto judgement (resurrection #2- the tares)

Revelation 20:12 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

sorry for the large caps. mistake. I agree with the rest of your post, good post.

Certainly you're aware of the meaning of "anthropomorphism"? Words to describe anatomical parts to God, who is a Spirit, and doesn't have those parts. Why can't such words be used for souls after physical death? I see no reason.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Here's a supporting document suggesting that aion means an age.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)

Can you show me where these burning cities are located? Do you have video of them? According to Scripture, not "scholars" these cities are an example of aionios fire. These cities are not still burning. How do you explain an eternally burning fire that isn't there?

Sodom and Gomorrah inhabitants are now perpetually burning, so what's the point?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Certainly you're aware of the meaning of "anthropomorphism"? Words to describe anatomical parts to God, who is a Spirit, and doesn't have those parts. Why can't such words be used for souls after physical death? I see no reason.

but we are talking of humans who do literally have feet, so no need to allegorize unnecessarily.