Bible Study The Law and Christ

[Malachi]

So excuse me, if I don't agree with your beliefs. Wish you would respect mine.

When a statement is made which has no support in Scripture, it needs to be challenged, otherwise someone who is not well-versed could be misled. This is not a matter of "respect" or "disrespect" but one of truth vs error.

Here is what you stated: "Satan was a tree in the garden of Eden, also known as the serpent." By no stretch of the imagination can the serpent be equated to a tree. A serpent can coil around a tree, but could never be mistaken for a tree. And since this serpent actually communicated with Eve and had a dialogue, that makes it even more unlikely that the serpent was a tree.

I'm not sure what your point was in making this bizarre analogy, but the Bible does not call Satan "a tree" at any point. He is certainly called "the great dragon" which takes his serpent nature to the ultimate level. Dragons and serpents have been worshipped by pagans ever since idolatry came into existence.

 

[dianegcook]

When a statement is made which has no support in Scripture, it needs to be challenged, otherwise someone who is not well-versed could be misled. This is not a matter of "respect" or "disrespect" but one of truth vs error.

Here is what you stated: "Satan was a tree in the garden of Eden, also known as the serpent." By no stretch of the imagination can the serpent be equated to a tree. A serpent can coil around a tree, but could never be mistaken for a tree. And since this serpent actually communicated with Eve and had a dialogue, that makes it even more unlikely that the serpent was a tree.

I'm not sure what your point was in making this bizarre analogy, but the Bible does not call Satan "a tree" at any point. He is certainly called "the great dragon" which takes his serpent nature to the ultimate level. Dragons and serpents have been worshipped by pagans ever since idolatry came into existence.

Again,
Ezek.31:8-10
The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him, the fir trees were not like his boughs, the chestnuts trees, nor any tree in the garden of God was like him in his beauty , heart is lifted up....
A him, a tree with a prideful heart...
Ezek.28:12,13
Full of wisdom and beauty
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God.....
15, thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee.
17, THINE HEART WAS LIFTED UP BECAUSE OF THY BEAUTY....

Christ was also THE TREE OF LIFE...
Satan , TREE OF DEATH...

Satan has many roles...
A few,
Serpent, the Assyrian, king of Tyre, Dragon, devil, Lucifer, Appollyon...

I think if one thinks the tree was the law of Moses is bizarre.....

 

[Malachi]

I think if one thinks the tree was the law of Moses is bizarre..

Correct, but just as bizarre as making the serpent into a tree. No one who enters an orchard automatically becomes a tree.

 

[dianegcook]

Correct, but just as bizarre as making the serpent into a tree. No one who enters an orchard automatically becomes a tree.

The serpent in the tree:yes

Peace!

 

[Malachi]

The serpent in the tree:yes

I'm sure you meant the serpent ON the tree.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The garden represents the source of man's life--his heart. Not physical life, but emotional and spiritual life:

"23 Watch over your heart with all diligence,
For from it flow the springs of life."
(Proverbs 4:23 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

What that means is we find our joy, our delight, our pleasure, our satisfaction, our life from what's in the heart. It's the garden from which we feed and live. The danger is there is a particular tree of desire that grows in the 'garden' of man's heart that appeals to man's desire for life that God says we should not eat from, and that if we do we will die, not live and be satisfied as we think. The command to not eat of that forbidden tree represents the law.

The forbidden tree, with it's alluring promise of 'life', represents sin and how it will not result in life but will result in death. Adam and Eve being naked and unclothed represents their lack of the covering of righteousness, therefore, they are open to the deceits of the serpent, the devil, to eat of the tree that God said will result in death, not the life they think it will give. It's called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because by eating of it they will have knowledge of the evil they have not known and will be able to clearly see the difference between that and the good they enjoyed from eating from the other trees (sources of life) in the garden. And see clearly how unclothed and unprotected they are against the allurement of the forbidden tree and the deceits of the enemy to eat of it.

 

[smaller]

John the Apostle spent some contemplation Holy Spirit inspired time writing about what happened in the Garden, though it may not be readily apparent on the surface. Paul similarly.

What happened therein was prompted by the law not to eat. Yes, that Word was of Christ, as The Word of God, the Spirit of Christ speaking in the Garden.

The law itself contains a bit of a conundrum. "You may eat freely BUT-" followed by the must not eat segment. Freely was limited by the "do not" portion of the law. The freely part had no limitations. The do not, an exact opposite. This is a conundrum or a paradox if you please.

Paul shows us in Romans 7:7-13 what happens INSIDE his mind where the law against coveting reacts to sin dwelling in the flesh. It caused an adverse resisting action inside via LUSTS that Paul described as 'every manner of concupiscence.'

John describes this adverse reaction similarly here:

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

These things are described by John as both "in" the world and "of" the world and NOT of the Father. We WILL find, if we look that these things were already "in" the world in the Garden and "of" the world, in the Garden, if we look. IN this way both John and Paul speak identically, as these mannerisms of SIN were already "in" and "of" the world, not of the Father, in the Garden:

Genesis 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

What John writes is a direct hit on all 3 counts when we observe Eve above. It's also the identical reaction that Paul writes of in Romans 7:7-13. This also shows that sin was already dwelling IN the flesh of Eve. The discourses of sin is first by thought, then by word, then by deed-the consummation of the cycle.

IF we go to the Garden with Jesus' parable facts of the sower/seed from the Gospels, a more extensive study, we'll find all the same things as above:

Matt. 13:19 DID happen in the Garden. Eve didn't understand the command as it was stated and instead stated it wrong.
Mark 4:15 did happen in the Garden. The deceiver, the tempter DID enter their hearts as Jesus said and stole Gods Words from their hearts.
and Luke 8:12 did happen to Adam in the Garden, as neither of them believed the LAW.

They were both in UNBELIEF of Gods Words. And were so because of the FACTS of Acts 26:18 and 2 Cor. 4:4.

It's a tidy and tight package in the consistency of scriptures.

 

[smaller]

The serpent in the tree:yes

Peace!

I would say IN the tree as well, and that because I observe scriptural matters of these things through allegory. There was no visible deceiver just as there is not today. Trees in the discourses of scripture are also allegorical to people.

When we see Mark 4:15 we can see the Serpent IN the Tree(s.) I don't doubt there was a literal tree to fixate on in the external, but that really wasn't where the real problem was, in the external.

The problems were internal from the start of the discourses.

 

[ezrider]

2 Ezdras (1611 KJV)

{4:22}Then answered I and said, I beseech thee, O Lord,
let me have understanding:
{4:23} For it was not my mind to be curious of the high
things, but of such as pass by us daily, namely, wherefore
Israel is given up as a reproach to the heathen, and for what
cause the people whom thou hast loved is given over unto
ungodly nations, and why the law of our forefathers is brought
to nought, and the written covenants come to none effect,
{4:24} And we pass away out of the world as
grasshoppers, and our life is astonishment and fear, and we
are not worthy to obtain mercy.
{4:25} What will he then do unto his name whereby we
are called? of these things have I asked.
{4:26} Then answered he me, and said, The more
thou searchest, the more thou shalt marvel; for the world hasteth
fast to pass away,
{4:27} And cannot comprehend the things that are
promised to the righteous in time to come: for this world is
full of unrighteousness and infirmities.
{4:28} But as concerning the things whereof thou askest
me, I will tell thee; for the evil is sown, but the destruction
thereof is not yet come.
{4:29} If therefore that which is sown be not turned
upside down, and if the place where the evil is sown pass
not away, then cannot it come that is sown with good.
{4:30} For the grain of evil seed hath been sown in the
heart of Adam from the beginning, and how much
ungodliness hath it brought up unto this time? and how
much shall it yet bring forth until the time of threshing come?
{4:31} Ponder now by thyself, how great fruit of
wickedness the grain of evil seed hath brought forth.
{4:32} And when the ears shall be cut down, which are
without number, how great a floor shall they fill?

http://www.scriptural-truth.com/PDF_Apocrypha/APOCRYPHA 2nd ESDRAS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE 1611.pdf



.

 

[ezrider]

2 Ezdras

{3:17} And it came to pass, that when thou leadest his
seed out of Egypt, thou broughtest them up to the mount
Sinai.
{3:18} And bowing the heavens, thou didst set fast the
earth, movedst the whole world, and madest the depths to
tremble, and troubledst the men of that age.
{3:19} And thy glory went through four gates, of fire, and
of earthquake, and of wind, and of cold; that thou mightest
give the law unto the seed of Jacob, and diligence unto the
generation of Israel.
{3:20} And yet tookest thou not away from them a
wicked heart, that thy law might bring forth fruit in them.
{3:21} For the first Adam bearing a wicked heart
transgressed, and was overcome; and so be all they that are
born of him.
{3:22} Thus infirmity was made permanent; and the law
(also) in the heart of the people with the malignity of the
root; so that the good departed away, and the evil abode still.

http://www.scriptural-truth.com/PDF_Apocrypha/APOCRYPHA 2nd ESDRAS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE 1611.pdf

 

[smaller]

2 Ezdras (1611 KJV)

{4:22}Then answered I and said, I beseech thee, O Lord,
let me have understanding:
{4:23} For it was not my mind to be curious of the high
things, but of such as pass by us daily, namely, wherefore
Israel is given up as a reproach to the heathen, and for what
cause the people whom thou hast loved is given over unto
ungodly nations, and why the law of our forefathers is brought
to nought, and the written covenants come to none effect,
{4:24} And we pass away out of the world as
grasshoppers, and our life is astonishment and fear, and we
are not worthy to obtain mercy.
{4:25} What will he then do unto his name whereby we
are called? of these things have I asked.
{4:26} Then answered he me, and said, The more
thou searchest, the more thou shalt marvel; for the world hasteth
fast to pass away,
{4:27} And cannot comprehend the things that are
promised to the righteous in time to come: for this world is
full of unrighteousness and infirmities.
{4:28} But as concerning the things whereof thou askest
me, I will tell thee; for the evil is sown, but the destruction
thereof is not yet come.
{4:29} If therefore that which is sown be not turned
upside down, and if the place where the evil is sown pass
not away, then cannot it come that is sown with good.
{4:30} For the grain of evil seed hath been sown in the
heart of Adam from the beginning, and how much
ungodliness hath it brought up unto this time? and how
much shall it yet bring forth until the time of threshing come?
{4:31} Ponder now by thyself, how great fruit of
wickedness the grain of evil seed hath brought forth.
{4:32} And when the ears shall be cut down, which are
without number, how great a floor shall they fill?

http://www.scriptural-truth.com/PDF_Apocrypha/APOCRYPHA 2nd ESDRAS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE 1611.pdf
.

The above depiction in blue being directly in line with Paul's statements of facts about Adam and "all" natural men in 1 Cor. 15:41-49, that being Adam/the natural man is planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor. Paul also shows us that the natural/carnal man has these conditions worsen via the law, making it beyond dispute that man has "evil present" within. Also directly in accord with Jesus' statements in Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23.

It becomes progressively interesting with all matters of LAW when we understand that the devil and his messengers are PROVOKED to rise and resist the LAW in the flesh. This is what I might term an inverse principle or inverse form of power that the scriptures present, ala all the seed parables in the vein of Mark 4:15, correlated to 1 Tim. 1:9, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-25, Romans 9:18-24, all of Galatians, particularly chapter 4's allegorizing of the Law, culminating in the conclusion of Gal. 5:17, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, etc.

It's quite a beautiful and vivdly presently real document, the WORD, the scriptures, THE LAW, when a believer can see with their own eyes the reality of these principles played out in the world. And the Ultimate Victory to follow, in Christ.

 

[Malachi]

{4:30} For the grain of evil seed hath been sown in the heart of Adam from the beginning, and how much ungodliness hath it brought up unto this time? and how much shall it yet bring forth until the time of threshing come?

The Apocrypha is not Divinely inspired and cannot really be used as a foundation for sound Bible doctrine. The above quotation from the Apocrypha is a good example. It implies that Adam was created as an evil being, but the Bible says that God looked upon all of His creation and pronounced it "very good". How could He then create an evil being to begin with, and on top of that give him dominion over the earth and all its creatures?

So the above statement is false doctrine, and the Apocrypha has many false teachings, since it is simply the writings of men -- not the Word of God. And we know that the Enemy is behind all false teachings.

 

[smaller]

The Apocrypha is not Divinely inspired and cannot really be used as a foundation for sound Bible doctrine. The above quotation from the Apocrypha is a good example. It implies that Adam was created as an evil being, but the Bible says that God looked upon all of His creation and pronounced it "very good". How could He then create an evil being to begin with, and on top of that give him dominion over the earth and all its creatures?

So the above statement is false doctrine, and the Apocrypha has many false teachings, since it is simply the writings of men -- not the Word of God. And we know that the Enemy is behind all false teachings.

Not going to debate outside texts BUT it really doesn't say what you presume it implies. God never had any intentions for the natural/dust/clay man to last for an eternity to start with. Sin was always made to kill the natural man, from the beginning. Just as the account of Adam and Eve shows us.

The wicked seed is the deceiver, the tempter operating in the flesh. And this eventually, sooner or later, this is the basis of death for all natural mankind.

It's not overly complicated. One of many problems is that our flesh, or more precisely, the evil present with us just won't accept that conclusion.

God DID set evil before us all. And placed it in our dust body precisely to kill.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Freewill postures don't deal well with this aspect of Gods Sovereignty. Even though it's plain to see, the will of the flesh, WITH evil present within, can not accept Gods uses of evil or His Superiority OVER it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not going to debate outside texts BUT it really doesn't say what you presume it implies. God never had any intentions for the natural/dust/clay man to last for an eternity to start with. Sin was always made to kill the natural man, from the beginning. Just as the account of Adam and Eve shows us.

The wicked seed is the deceiver, the tempter operating in the flesh. And this eventually, sooner or later, this is the basis of death for all natural mankind.

It's not overly complicated. One of many problems is that our flesh, or more precisely, the evil present with us just won't accept that conclusion.

God DID set evil before us all. And placed it in our dust body precisely to kill.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Freewill postures don't deal well with this aspect of Gods Sovereignty. Even though it's plain to see, the will of the flesh, WITH evil present within, can not accept Gods uses of evil or His Superiority OVER it.

More railing against these imaginary people who think they have no sin.

 

[smaller]

More railing against these imaginary people who think they have no sin.

I withdrew my membership in the "my obedient sin dwelling in my flesh and evil present with me fan club" because the cost to belong, lying, became too expensive.

 

[ezrider]

The Apocrypha is not Divinely inspired and cannot really be used as a foundation for sound Bible doctrine.

I'm sorry, but the same Bible that sits on my bookshelf that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine also contains the same words that you reject as not being inspired of God. And by no means have I quoted these passages as a foundation for doctrine, but rather a supplement to things that are evident in the rest of the scripture that has been discussed in this forum, and we are free to take it with a grain of salt.

But what stands the rather more curious to me, is how you can declare with certainty that the books of Ezra were not divinely inspired, even though they are part of the 1611 King James and even though none of the passages that I posted are contrary to any teaching from the Bible? By whose authority do you declare these writings to be false? Or by what knowledge? These things were given unto the Scribes to care for and yet you present yourself to me now as a Scribe preserving the authenticity of the scriptures? But just the other day you, well..........

Anyone who would see himself as a scribe of Pharisee could not claim to be a genuine Christian. So if you are asking Christians whether they see themselves as scribes and Pharisees, perhaps you are addressing the wrong crowd.

Or maybe you shouldn't so readily dismiss the word of God as it was meant for you to hear: as the Scribe and Pharisee.

The above quotation from the Apocrypha is a good example. It implies that Adam was created as an evil being, but the Bible says that God looked upon all of His creation and pronounced it "very good". How could He then create an evil being to begin with, and on top of that give him dominion over the earth and all its creatures?

No, you have added the implications that those text simply do not convey. It did not say Adam was created as an evil being. All it says is that a grain of evil seed was sown in the heart of Adam. Really no different than Jesus describing the good seed and the bad seed in the parable of the sower and the parable of the wheat and the tares. Paul also touches on it in 1 Cor 15:35-45.

Maybe the wiser course of action would be to consider for yourself what the grain of evil seed that has been sown into the hearts of all mankind desires most. What desire did it bring forth in Adam that caused him to sin?

 

[ezrider]

So the above statement is false doctrine, and the Apocrypha has many false teachings, since it is simply the writings of men -- not the Word of God. And we know that the Enemy is behind all false teachings.

There is a curious and yet interesting phenomenon that occurs when one has been eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge of the Law: They deny the fruit of any other tree. But from the beginning this was not so. It was given to Adam that he could eat freely of the fruit of any tree in the garden, only he was NOT to eat of the tree of Knowledge. Yet when those of Adam's nature come to the knowledge of the Law, there is a propensity to declare that the fruit of the tree of knowledge is the one true fruit and only to be trusted, while the fruit of all the other trees are harmful to us and should be avoided.

It is written in the scripture that God said if you wanted to believe a lie, then He would send you strong delusion so that you would believe the lie. If I should happen to believe a lie and be in the midst of strong delusion, should I then say that God is my Enemy? Heaven forbid. The Lord is not my enemy, He is my teacher.

 

[OzSpen]

Was Adam a sinner before Adam sinned? Of course!

Paul, in 1 Tim. 1:9 spells this out, clearly.

1 Timothy 1:
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

God Spoke the first law to Adam: Do NOT eat

There was no need for God to Speak this LAW if Adam was NOT already a sinner.

There could be no sin until Adam and Eve sinned. Gen 3:6 (ESV) says Eve and Adam did it (Eve first and then Adam):

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

That's when sin began. There was no sin before this. That's Bible!

 

[Malachi]

But what stands the rather more curious to me, is how you can declare with certainty that the books of Ezra were not divinely inspired, even though they are part of the 1611 King James and even though none of the passages that I posted are contrary to any teaching from the Bible?

As far as the Jews were concerned, and as far as Jesus and the apostles were concerned, Ezra-Nehemiah in the Tanakh was the Word of God. As far as the translators of the KJV were concerned, they included the Apocrypha in the original KJV but made it clear in their preface that it was not divinely inspired. So yes, we take those writings with a grain of salt.

All it says is that a grain of evil seed was sown in the heart of Adam.

And that is precisely my point. The Bible itself NEVER makes this statement about Adam. Adam was created to have fellowship with God, but he also had the capacity to make free moral choices. He chose to disobey even though he was given a commandment to obey. So it was not "a grain of evil seed" sown in the heart of Adam, but a choice which was made contrary to the commandment of God. Big difference.

 

[JohnDB]

Exodus 32:28.
...and about 3000 died that day
Acts.....and about 3000 believed and were baptized that day.

So later Paul writes, " the Law brings death but the Spirit brings life".

Nice pictures eh?