The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[Deborah13]

Jesus says, "You have heard, but I tell you". Jesus himself said he didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. This is to say that he came to give a proper interpretation of the Law. Thus, "But I tell you" is the proper intent of a particular portion of Torah. I actually have the verses your referencing (both OT and NT) written down at home.

I suspect that you think I am referring to the divorce laws? Which Jesus straightened out the argument between the two different schools of thought. "because of the hardness of your hearts". I am not referring to that.
I intentions in my post is not about the law being abolished, etc. that is a different issue.
imo
When Jesus said, "But I tell you" I don't believe He was giving the correct interpretation of Moses Law. I believe He was teaching the complete picture of God's law. Moses Law was a shadow and incomplete. It does not need to be reinterpreted, it says what it says.
God has made concessions at times for the weaknesses of man. One example would be the cities of sanctuary. Now we are excepted to control our desire for vengeance by the power of the Holy Spirit but then He made previsions to help men through that time so they wouldn't be so tempted.
Did King David break Moses Law by having more than one wife? No
Did Solomon break Moses Law by having more than one wife? No
Did Solomon break Moses Law by taking pagan wives? Yes

People thinking that they are living Moses Law is a problem both for Christians and for Jews. It is a bad witness. People pick and choose what they are going to do and how they are going to do it. Well that is fine, Paul says all things are lawful. But they need to be honest about it. They cannot say that they are living by Moses Law, aside from ceremonial sacrifices because most of them are not. Most Jews don't even live by Moses Law, they live by the rabbical laws in the Talmud. If they were they would live more like the pious Orthodox Jew. There would not be divisions such as liberal Jews, etc.

 

[Deborah13]

Exodus 23 touches on this but the principle is seen in other laws about the treatment of an enemy.

Exo 23:4-5 KJV If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. (5) If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Those are good ones now let's look at who this enemy (the guy that doesn't like you is).

Deu 22:1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.
Deu 22:2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.
Deu 22:3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.
Deu 22:4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

not nigh unto thee = the guy that doesn't like you
But notice he is your brother, he is an Israelite not a pagan

[qoute]Solomon also shows the correct treatment of enemies and I guess it must have been implied by the Mosaic law. imo

Pro 25:21-22 KJV If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: (22) For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Pro 24:17-18 KJV Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: (18) Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.[/quote]

I don't remember seeing anything like this in Moses Law, they may be, but we have to look and see.
The first one made me chuckle, this is the one my unsaved mother used to tell me. She said it this way, "If someone is mean to you, kill them with kindness". I don't think she was thinking quite what the Lord intended by not that far off either. It's a good way to turn aside wrath and bring it back on them.

The next once again I believe this is talking about your brother even if he hates you they/we should never be glad when someone falls into sin. The Lord would/could be every upset with us if we are glad someone sins.

 

[agua.]

I don't get what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the Mosaic law only had implications on how Israelite treated each other ?

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

The commandments of God are not burdensome (they're not hard).

There not hard?

No one has ever kept them except Jesus.

No one.

JLB

 

[DRS81]

I have a question. When we say, 'The Law of God' are we referring to the 10 Commandments?
Also, when we say, 'We are no longer (under the law), rather we are under grace'..what are we saying here.
I'm always confused with what the Bible refers to as the Law, and I really wanna learn. - DRS81

 

[Deborah13]

I don't get what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the Mosaic law only had implications on how Israelite treated each other ?

Who is your brother?
What pagans where within their gates? Well they had pagan slaves. They were to treat those slaves well. But they were not treated the same way as a Hebrew indentured slave. They did not have the same rights. If I remember correctly, they were not released in the Jubilee year as Hebrew indentured slaves were. But I will have to get back with you on that.
If a slave married while they were in slavery and had children and he was released by his master he could leave but he could not take his family with him because they belonged to his master. That is in Moses Law. But I will have to go back and look at whether this was the Hebrew slave as well as the captured slave.


I am certainly open to a better understanding if someone can provide that scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

I have a question. When we say, 'The Law of God' are we referring to the 10 Commandments?
Also, when we say, 'We are no longer (under the law), rather we are under grace'..what are we saying here.
I'm always confused with what the Bible refers to as the Law, and I really wanna learn. - DRS81

Just hang in and keep reading the posts. If we can keep this civil we can all learn. I hoping some more knowledgeable people than me will help us out here.

 

[agua.]

Ok I'll ask again a bit differently. Do you believe an Israelite was permitted by the Mosaic law to hate a non Israelite.

Mat 5:43 KJV Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Do you suggest Jesus was saying here that Israelite were permitted to hate a non Israelite enemy ?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

oh, they're hard for the transgressor, but not for >>>>> 'these' >>>>>

For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."Matthew 23:4

"If you love me, keep my commands.John 14:21

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."John 14:23

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-3.htm >>>>

◄ 1 John 5:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

New Living Translation
Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome.

English Standard Version
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

New American Standard Bible
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

King James Bible
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

International Standard Version
For this demonstrates our love for God: We keep his commandments, and his commandments are not difficult,

NET Bible
For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments do not weigh us down,

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Ok I'll ask again a bit differently. Do you believe an Israelite was permitted by the Mosaic law to hate a non Israelite.
Mat 5:43 KJV Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Do you suggest Jesus was saying here that Israelite were permitted to hate a non Israelite enemy ?

remember God doesn't do things the way people do. people can't even understand how God does things.

was King David an Israelite ?

 

[Deborah13]

Ok I'll ask again a bit differently. Do you believe an Israelite was permitted by the Mosaic law to hate a non Israelite.

Mat 5:43 KJV Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Do you suggest Jesus was saying here that Israelite were permitted to hate a non Israelite enemy ?

I don't really know what to think.
I'm just looking at Moses Law and saying I don't see where it says to "love" thy enemy.
I'm not judging the nation of Israel. I'm just looking at Moses Law, that is all.

 

[agua.]

I don't really know what to think.
I'm just looking at Moses Law and saying I don't see where it says to "love" thy enemy.
I'm not judging the nation of Israel. I'm just looking at Moses Law, that is all.

Ok sure. Jesus told some Jewish religious leaders and scholars that they didn't understand their own laws. Do you think loving your neighbour also implies not hating an enemy ? Maybe a read of Luke 10 is relevant.

Luk 10:25-29 KJV And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (29) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Read the rest and make your own decision.

 

[JLB]

oh, they're hard for the transgressor, but not for >>>>> 'these' >>>>>

For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."Matthew 23:4

"If you love me, keep my commands.John 14:21

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."John 14:23

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-3.htm >>>>

◄ 1 John 5:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

New Living Translation
Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome.

English Standard Version
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

New American Standard Bible
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

King James Bible
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

International Standard Version
For this demonstrates our love for God: We keep his commandments, and his commandments are not difficult,

NET Bible
For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments do not weigh us down,

Key phrase - My Commands, not Moses commands.


This is the way Abraham obeyed His Commandments.

Not a list of rules, but a living relationship, whereby he walked with God in His Presense.

Which is the same command we have today, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Walking with God where you hear His Voice, and obey what He says is a world of difference than trying to keep a set of rules etched in Stone, without a relationship with Him.

For the Law is not of faith!

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

If you don't obey His Command to walk before Him, then you can't expect to be blameless!

as it is written -

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

It's funny, but I don't ever hear the Torah keepers ever talk about this verse.


or this one -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19


JLB

 

[TOG]

There not hard?

No one has ever kept them except Jesus.

No one.

JLB

King David came pretty close.

because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. (I Kings 15:5 ESV)​

And there's the rich young ruler...

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, "No you haven't; nobody has except me". (Matt. 19:16-21)​

Wait... something doesn't sound right... Let me check again...

The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Matt. 19:20-21 ESV)
​

Yes... That sounds right. Have you ever noticed that when self righteous people came to Jesus, he didn't hesitate to point out their sins, but in this case he didn't dispute the man's claim that he had kept all the commandments? (And as a side note, did you notice that when he was asked "What must I do to have eternal life?", he didn't say "Pray and invite me into your heart as your personal Lord and savior", but rather "Keep the commandments"?)

And what about these...

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14 ESV)

She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” (John 8:11 ESV)
​

Is Jesus telling us to do the impossible?

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Ok I'll ask again a bit differently. Do you believe an Israelite was permitted by the Mosaic law to hate a non Israelite.

Mat 5:43 KJV Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Do you suggest Jesus was saying here that Israelite were permitted to hate a non Israelite enemy ?

So this is in Moses Law......I think this one goes well with your Prov.
Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt
Exo 22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deu 15:1 At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release.
Deu 15:2 And this is the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD'S release.
Deu 15:3 Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;

Deu 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury: [usury = interest]
Deu 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Treatment of Gentiles http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

1. To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19) (CCA61). See Love and Brotherhood.
2. Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20) (CCN49).
3. Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20) (CCN50).
4. Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3) (CCN19). See Interfaith Marriages.
5. To exact the debt of an alien (Deut. 15:3) (affirmative).
6. To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative).

 

[Deborah13]

King David came pretty close.

because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. (I Kings 15:5 ESV)​

And there's the rich young ruler...

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, "No you haven't; nobody has except me". (Matt. 19:16-21)​

Wait... something doesn't sound right... Let me check again...

The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Matt. 19:20-21 ESV)
​

Yes... That sounds right. Have you ever noticed that when self righteous people came to Jesus, he didn't hesitate to point out their sins, but in this case he didn't dispute the man's claim that he had kept all the commandments? (And as a side note, did you notice that when he was asked "What must I do to have eternal life?", he didn't say "Pray and invite me into your heart as your personal Lord and savior", but rather "Keep the commandments"?)

And what about these...

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14 ESV)

She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” (John 8:11 ESV)
​

Is Jesus telling us to do the impossible?

The TOG​

TOG this question is not about your last post that I quoted.

Is a born again Jewish person, saved by the blood of the Lamb, in Christ, are they a member in the new covenant or the old covenant?

 

[TOG]

Ok I'll ask again a bit differently. Do you believe an Israelite was permitted by the Mosaic law to hate a non Israelite.

Mat 5:43 KJV Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Do you suggest Jesus was saying here that Israelite were permitted to hate a non Israelite enemy ?

Look again at the first part of what Jesus said... "it hath been said", not "it is written", like he said in the previous chapter when confronting Satan. Neither the Torah nor any other part of the Hebrew Scriptures allow us to hate our enemies.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Ok sure. Jesus told some Jewish religious leaders and scholars that they didn't understand their own laws. Do you think loving your neighbour also implies not hating an enemy ? Maybe a read of Luke 10 is relevant.

Luk 10:25-29 KJV And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (29) But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Read the rest and make your own decision.

I know what this says..Jesus was telling them that when they read Moses Law they were incorrect in thinking that their neighbor was just their neighbor as in just another Jew.

This is about looking at all of Moses Law and saying is this what a Christian is suppose to do today.
Take on some of the tough ones. Like under Moses Law was it against the Law to have more than one wife?
I was addressing another poster when she said that other than the ceremonial laws we are suppose to obey Moses Law. Is that so?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

(And as a side note, did you notice that when he was asked "What must I do to have eternal life?", he didn't say "Pray and invite me into your heart as your personal Lord and savior", but rather "Keep the commandments"?)

​

Is Jesus telling us to do the impossible?

The TOG​

YES! very good start there ! (notice all the crowds who can't do the impossible and who don't want to obey, keep saying that Jesus never told them to ? )

 

[agua.]

I know what this says..Jesus was telling them that when they read Moses Law they were incorrect in thinking that their neighbor was just their neighbor as in just another Jew.

This is about looking at all of Moses Law and saying is this what a Christian is suppose to do today.
Take on some of the tough ones. Like under Moses Law was it against the Law to have more than one wife?
I was addressing another poster when she said that other than the ceremonial laws we are suppose to obey Moses Law. Is that so?

I was commenting on loving enemies and how it was relevant to love all people in the Mosaic law ( even enemies ) because you seemed to suggest in the Mosaic law Israelite were only told to love people inside their "borders" . I have no comment on anything else atm.