The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[TOG]

TOG this question is not about your last post that I quoted.

Is a born again Jewish person, saved by the blood of the Lamb, in Christ, are they a member in the new covenant or the old covenant?

I could probably do a whole Bible study on that question, but I'll try to keep my answer to a reasonable length.

Although it's never referred to as such, if you think about it logically, what we call the "Old Covenant" was once a new covenant. What does the Bible tell us about the relationship between the "Old Covenant" and the older covenants that came before it?

This is what I mean: the law [aka "Old Covenant"], which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. (Gal. 3:17 ESV)​

[Brackets by TOG]

The terms "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" are a bit misleading. They imply that there are only 2 covenants, when the fact is that there are many. According to what Paul told the Galatians, older covenants that God has made are not nullified when He makes new ones. The first covenant that is specifically mentioned as such (there is at least one implied earlier) is the covenant with Noah. That covenant was not nullified when God made a covenant with Abraham. We can still count on God's promise not to flood the entire earth again. And, as Paul specifically said, the covenant that was given at Mt. Sinai did not nullify either of the two that came before it. Each covenant did not replace those that came before, but added to them. It is the same with the New Covenant. It does not nullify the so-called "Old Covenant", but builds upon it and adds to it. The "Old Covenant" is still valid for all those with whom it was made, as are all the other covenants. The covenant with Abraham was made with him and all his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. The Sinai covenant was made with the people who were present and all their descendants. The "New Covenant" was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31). A Jew who is saved by faith in Yeshuah is a member of all three covenants, since he is a physical descendant both of Abraham and of those at Mt. Sinai and he is either of the house of Israel or Judah.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Wow, a lot of interesting views here.

Because I'm short on time, this will probably be my only post. So I hope somebody finds some sort of benifit from it.

Question: Are Christians under the Law of Moses.
Answer: No, the Law of Moses was part of the covenant at Mt. Sinia. The people were asked, and they all responded in one voice with a resounding YES. God does not force his laws on anyone.

Question: Will the world be judged upon the Law of Moses?
Answer: No. Only those who subjected themselves to that covenant. You can't bind somebody to an agreement they never made.

Question: How will the unbelievers be judged?
Answer: By the universal laws of God given to all the gentiles as affirmed by the sign of that covenant, which is the rainbow. Numerically there are 8 of them and are known in modern times as the Noahide laws.

Question: Can a Christian adhere to the Laws of Moses.
Answer: Yes, if he / she so chooses to. Either way, it has no bearing on his / her eternal salvation.

Question: Is there a diffidence between being a Christian and a disciple of Christ?
Answer: Yes. A Christian now days simply means you believe in Jesus and you go to Church on Sunday and maybe even on a Wednesday. However, a disciple learns to walk as Jesus walks which is to say they try to live as Jesus lived and learn from his teachings. Matthew 5-7 is an example of the teachings of Jesus and Jesus himself said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments".

Question: Are we Christians under a covenant?
Answer: Yes, we call it the new Covenant. Jer 31 speaks of this new covenant and Jesus establishes this covenant with the words, "This is my blood of the new covenant which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins".

Question: Who is part of this new covenant?
Answer: Those who are baptized into Christ.

Question: Are non-believers bound to this covenant?
Answer: No.

imo
This is the best and clearest post on this thread. Thank you

 

[Gary]

Is a born again Jewish person, saved by the blood of the Lamb, in Christ,...

1 Corinthians 1
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

...are they a member in the new covenant or the old covenant?

Hebrews 8
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

.

 

[Deborah13]

1 Corinthians 1
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.



Hebrews 8
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

.

And ...
KJv
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
NASB
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
NIV
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
AMP
18 So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness—
19 For the Law never made anything perfect—but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God.

 

[Deborah13]

I could probably do a whole Bible study on that question, but I'll try to keep my answer to a reasonable length.

Although it's never referred to as such, if you think about it logically, what we call the "Old Covenant" was once a new covenant. What does the Bible tell us about the relationship between the "Old Covenant" and the older covenants that came before it?

This is what I mean: the law [aka "Old Covenant"], which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. (Gal. 3:17 ESV)​

[Brackets by TOG]

The terms "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" are a bit misleading. They imply that there are only 2 covenants, when the fact is that there are many. According to what Paul told the Galatians, older covenants that God has made are not nullified when He makes new ones. The first covenant that is specifically mentioned as such (there is at least one implied earlier) is the covenant with Noah. That covenant was not nullified when God made a covenant with Abraham. We can still count on God's promise not to flood the entire earth again. And, as Paul specifically said, the covenant that was given at Mt. Sinai did not nullify either of the two that came before it. Each covenant did not replace those that came before, but added to them. It is the same with the New Covenant. It does not nullify the so-called "Old Covenant", but builds upon it and adds to it. The "Old Covenant" is still valid for all those with whom it was made, as are all the other covenants. The covenant with Abraham was made with him and all his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. The Sinai covenant was made with the people who were present and all their descendants. The "New Covenant" was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31). A Jew who is saved by faith in Yeshuah is a member of all three covenants, since he is a physical descendant both of Abraham and of those at Mt. Sinai and he is either of the house of Israel or Judah.

The TOG​

Galatians 3:17 ESV
17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

When we say the new covenant isn't this the covenant that was ratified in Genesis that the Law of Moses could not annul?
Genesis 22:18 ESV
18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

Wasn't the Law of Moses covenant given only for a certain period of time?
Galatians 3:19
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.




Hebrews 7 ESV
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

set aside -
Greek athetēsis art of setting aside, abolition, annulling, from athetos + -ēsis -esis

 

[Edward]

Praise the Father! Studying Torah as the foundation of all things will open up your eyes to the scriptures like you could never imagine. Overjoyed you have sought truth, and able to put away years of false indoctrination even when it may be difficult or unpopular. That being said, there are still far more many things that unite us within the body, then what divides us. I pray your path is blessed, peaceful and joyful all the years of your life.

Thank you brother. I think the OT is very vital for us to study and for our growth. Oh ho we have to resist thinking the OT does not apply to us and the urge to shrug it off. God does not change and i have found that a lot (if not all!) of the OT shows us a type of things to come and if one reads very carefully, Jesus is on every page, and instructions for our faith and behavior (as NT Christians) are there. The things that happened then are happening now and even more. I think the more one understands the OT, the easier it will be to understand the NT!

 

[Edward]

Interesting, so you believe we are to follow Moses Law?
Well, I'll help you along your way. Here is where you can buy a true Tallit for the wearing of the tzitizt everyday as commanded. There are others that are made with four fringes.
http://www.amazon.com/Perftzit-Size...d_sim_a_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AGKFPZKT0D6STSXJY5P

This is what the pious Orthodox Jews wear everyday to remind them not to 'spy' on their own mind and heart but to look to God. Some others wear one or two attached to their shirt but they are worn everyday.
It is commanded in the Law of Moses to wear it everyday.
This idea that the Tallit is a prayer shawl to be worn while praying is nonsense. And it is these types of rewriting of the Law of Moses that really gives the Jews ammunition against Messianic Jews. And corrupts the Christian into thinking they are following Moses Law.

That said I have no issue if someone wears a prayer shawl as long as they understand the truth. Each person would have their own reason for doing that and it is between them and the Messiah.

If I am incorrect in anything written here please inform me of what and why.

it's the spirit of the law sister and not the letter. Just like when Jesus healed on the Sabbath and told them who wouldn't lift their sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath? Or when King David and his men ate the shewbread, their hearts were with God but they were hungry. The heart must be involved here and not a bunch of technical reasoning, being led by the Spirit. This isn't about wearing a Tallit everyday to be able to follow Gods OT laws. You're throwing the letter of the law at me sister and that is what is incorrect in your post. Live for the Spirit. Within the spirit of the law there is no murder or adultery. We must strive to set aside the letter of the law, and to pick up the spirit of the law. That's why we need to study the OT and say that it is applicable to us, because in it we find a lot of instruction and spirit. Would you agree with that?

 

[Obadiah]

This is confusing. So it sounds like that "spirit of the law" leaves an awful lot of room for individual interpretation of what parts we will follow and what parts we won't follow. A Jew wears the Tallit every day by law, but Christians in following the Old Testament law are free to change it to not wearing it all the time? How many other parts of the law that we are to follow are we not really to follow except in our own way as we see fit?

 

[Edward]

Where is Moses Law does it say to love your enemy as yourself?
Where in Moses Law does it say that if a man takes another wife he is committing adultry?
If you can find even just those two teachings directly from Jesus in Moses Law, I will reconsidered my posititon.

There is a new covenant. With the arrival of Jesus upon the earth, there were modifications put in place and new standards to live by were set. For instance, it is written in the NT, that the law of Moses allowed for a man to put away his wife (divorce her) for infidelity...but also says that this was a concession for the people and that it was not always so. Do you remember this scripture sister?

Times change, culture changes, and new standards are set forth for us. The law was not done away with, it was fulfilled and Jesus set the new standard...a standard of love. No longer is it an eye for an eye, but...love your enemy, as Jesus loved those who crucified Him. Nowadays, (hopefully) we are able to grasp and understand that one should not put away his wife for infidelity, but to love her instead, she has lost her way, and needs to be brought back into the fold...to be loved, unconditionally and gently pointed back to the love of the Lord. Times are different now, and we are to live for the Spirit. Not everyone had the Holy Spirit back then, but we do now. Jesus had not been here when this law was given. He has now! Am I making sense?

 

[Edward]

This is confusing. So it sounds like that "spirit of the law" leaves an awful lot of room for individual interpretation of what parts we will follow and what parts we won't follow. A Jew wears the Tallit every day by law, but Christians in following the Old Testament law are free to change it to not wearing it all the time? How many other parts of the law that we are to follow are we not really to follow except in our own way as we see fit?

That's a darn good question brother. My answer would be...Being mindful of (Romans 14 anyone?!) NT scripture which instructs us to live for the Spirit (love) and not for the flesh (reasoning)...we should understand that many are in a different place in their walk, and are also a different part of the body than we are...so while one would be convicted to do a certain thing (wear a Tallit?), and others may not be, that both may be within the Spirit of the law, or seen as righteous in Gods eyes. As NT Christians, our greatest responsibility at this time is to seek God and to draw closer to Him, worshiping in Spirit and in truth, developing our personal relationship and walking in the Spirit, being led of the Spirit. Taking on the mind of Christ and becoming love. Just as Jesus was/is. We are the body...Jesus is the head...we are one. and we must have unity and function as one.

Why does there have to be individual interpretation? If the Spirit is leading us, then...how could there be more than one interpretation?

 

[Edward]

A Jew wears the Tallit every day by law

What is a Jew? Are they different than us? Are we not grafted into the vine? One new man? One body, one faith, one Spirit, One God. Many different members, different parts, different functions, operating as one in unison, being led by the Head. We let Him lead.

If we stick to the letter of the law, we go nowhere and no edification will happen. The law was not done away with, the Spirit of the law is alive.

 

[Obadiah]

That's a darn good question brother. My answer would be...Being mindful of (Romans 14 anyone?!) NT scripture which instructs us to live for the Spirit (love) and not for the flesh (reasoning)...we should understand that many are in a different place in their walk, and are also a different part of the body than we are...so while one would be convicted to do a certain thing (wear a Tallit?), and others may not be, that both may be within the Spirit of the law, or seen as righteous in Gods eyes. As NT Christians, our greatest responsibility at this time is to seek God and to draw closer to Him, worshiping in Spirit and in truth, developing our personal relationship and walking in the Spirit, being led of the Spirit. Taking on the mind of Christ and becoming love. Just as Jesus was/is. We are the body...Jesus is the head...we are one. and we must have unity and function as one.

Why does there have to be individual interpretation? If the Spirit is leading us, then...how could there be more than one interpretation?

Yep, good points. I have an old friend who even worked under me for a time when I ran youth groups. After several years of being a Christian he became involved with Messianic Judaism even to the point of eventually becoming a Rabbi. At first what he said made sense, like your post above. But as time went by he became very legalistic and condemning of everyone who didn't follow the letter of the law. Today he's become completely impossible to reason with as he constantly calls for things like changing laws to allow the stoning to death of women caught in adultery, mandatory forgiving of all loans made by financial institution on the year of jubilee, and such things as this. He's actually impossible to have any kind of fellowship with anymore. What you've said above seems a lot more reasonable and in line with the New Testament and Jesus' teaching.

 

[Edward]

Thank you brother, the Lord is being good to me and teaching me. I don't know anything except how dumb I am and to pray to the Lord ok, I don't know. I will set aside everything I thought I knew and open my heart and spirit to receive His teaching...and so He is. Praise the lord! We have to be able to receive it. We have to be teachable.

It's like tuning in a radio. It receives the way it receives. We can't stand there and say ok radio, i want you to work like this, on my terms...It just wont receive that way.

 

[stovebolts]

Yep, good points. I have an old friend who even worked under me for a time when I ran youth groups. After several years of being a Christian he became involved with Messianic Judaism even to the point of eventually becoming a Rabbi. At first what he said made sense, like your post above. But as time went by he became very legalistic and condemning of everyone who didn't follow the letter of the law. Today he's become completely impossible to reason with as he constantly calls for things like changing laws to allow the stoning to death of women caught in adultery, mandatory forgiving of all loans made by financial institution on the year of jubilee, and such things as this. He's actually impossible to have any kind of fellowship with anymore. What you've said above seems a lot more reasonable and in line with the New Testament and Jesus' teaching.

I've seen legalistic christians who wern't messianic do the same thing.. I call it a personality trait, not a religios trait because with those kinds of people, they simply find a means for their insides to come out.

 

[stovebolts]

When Jesus said, "But I tell you" I don't believe He was giving the correct interpretation of Moses Law. I believe He was teaching the complete picture of God's law. Moses Law was a shadow and incomplete. It does not need to be reinterpreted, it says what it says.

If you understood the law, you would understand that it teaches discernment because when you try to live by the law, you quickly learn that to uphold one law, you will inevitably be breaking another law. Thus, a learned student in Torah will learn an essence from the totality of scripture which paints a whole new view which over arches the totality of scripture. Thus, when Jesus says, "You have heard", he is speaking on the different teachings from a variety of rabbi's or schools of thought. "But I tell you" is a proper interpretation / discernment from the totality of scriptures.

The problem with us, if I can be honest... is we read the laws of Moses, but we read them as 613 individual laws and they are just words on a page for us. Try to live them for a year and you'll quickly realize the discernment required to navigate and live by them. Listen, can you live Matthew 5 through 7 perfectly? Of course you can't. Yet Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commandments". Did God set us up to fail? I don't think so. He set us up to rely and depend on HIM in a way that we realize without Him, we're nothing and without Him, we crumble.

 

[reba]

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

What is a Jew? Are they different than us? Are we not grafted into the vine? One new man? One body, one faith, one Spirit, One God. Many different members, different parts, different functions, operating as one in unison, being led by the Head. We let Him lead.
If we stick to the letter of the law, we go nowhere and no edification will happen. The law was not done away with, the Spirit of the law is alive.

I'll 'try' to keep the answers short and in order, but Yhwh knows it mite knot hapen !
What is a Jew? (unknown to most Jews and gentiles; for other thread- very important but too long for here)
..different than us? YES !
Are we not grafted into the vine? hmmmmmm......... no, mostly. (sorry, not the answer everyone wants to hear, but the truth.)
One new man? ................ not seen...................... very rare to find.
One body, one faith, one Spirit, One God. >>> yes, but again not seen. not here. we are in a grocery store, open to everyone.
....
Many .... operating as one in unison, being led by the Head. We let Him lead. >>> answer this one yourself, but first go to Ephesians, Colossians, Revelation, and Acts, (even Corinthians, et al) and see what happened, what they did, when they , the ekklesia, operated as one in unison, being led by the Head and letting Him lead. then look around. and cry.

 

[jasonc]

there was seven noahide laws, not 8.

 

[Deborah13]

I was commenting on loving enemies and how it was relevant to love all people in the Mosaic law ( even enemies ) because you seemed to suggest in the Mosaic law Israelite were only told to love people inside their "borders" . I have no comment on anything else atm.

You were correct. I did suggest that they were only told to love those within their borders. Then you suggested otherwise and found the Ex. and Prov. scriptures. I posted Deut. etc.
Then I posted the scriptures that seem to related only to the foreigner, gentile.
I don't think the Law of Moses ever suggests to 'hate' anyone. That was not what I was suggesting at all. Only that different people are treated differently.
I guess I can see why the Jews were confused. Yes, Jesus straightened out a lot of things just by the good Samaritan story, which I'm sure didn't please them either seeing that the Samaritans were despised.
So if neighbor means all people than what does that say about who can be charged interest on a loan and the discharging of a loan in the Jubiliee year? What does that say about the differences in the way a Hebrew slave and a foreign slave are treated differently?
When I read these things then I think that Jesus meant do not harm anyone, do protect all life and provide food, clothing and shelter for all people as they are essential to maintaining life, do not think you are better than someone else.
I think that there were things like Korbin that were added by the leaders. But I don't think all the confusion was just because of added rules.

 

[Deborah13]

This is confusing. So it sounds like that "spirit of the law" leaves an awful lot of room for individual interpretation of what parts we will follow and what parts we won't follow. A Jew wears the Tallit every day by law, but Christians in following the Old Testament law are free to change it to not wearing it all the time? How many other parts of the law that we are to follow are we not really to follow except in our own way as we see fit?

Exactly my point.