The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[Deborah13]

If you understood the law, you would understand that it teaches discernment because when you try to live by the law, you quickly learn that to uphold one law, you will inevitably be breaking another law. Thus, a learned student in Torah will learn an essence from the totality of scripture which paints a whole new view which over arches the totality of scripture. Thus, when Jesus says, "You have heard", he is speaking on the different teachings from a variety of rabbi's or schools of thought. "But I tell you" is a proper interpretation / discernment from the totality of scriptures.

The problem with us, if I can be honest... is we read the laws of Moses, but we read them as 613 individual laws and they are just words on a page for us. Try to live them for a year and you'll quickly realize the discernment required to navigate and live by them. Listen, can you live Matthew 5 through 7 perfectly? Of course you can't. Yet Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commandments". Did God set us up to fail? I don't think so. He set us up to rely and depend on HIM in a way that we realize without Him, we're nothing and without Him, we crumble.

The Law of Moses is a unit, if you miss in one point you have missed them all. One cannot say they are obeying the Law of Moses when they obey in one point and not in all points. Which says, it cannot be obeyed perfectly by any of us. Jesus was the only one who could and did do this because He really understood what it was saying.

 

[Deborah13]

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Like.

 

[Deborah13]

I'll 'try' to keep the answers short and in order, but Yhwh knows it mite knot hapen !
What is a Jew? (unknown to most Jews and gentiles; for other thread- very important but too long for here)
..different than us? YES !
Are we not grafted into the vine? hmmmmmm......... no, mostly. (sorry, not the answer everyone wants to hear, but the truth.)
One new man? ................ not seen...................... very rare to find.
One body, one faith, one Spirit, One God. >>> yes, but again not seen. not here. we are in a grocery store, open to everyone.
....
Many .... operating as one in unison, being led by the Head. We let Him lead. >>> answer this one yourself, but first go to Ephesians, Colossians, Revelation, and Acts, (even Corinthians, et al) and see what happened, what they did, when they , the ekklesia, operated as one in unison, being led by the Head and letting Him lead. then look around. and cry.

I don't think the point of this thread is to judge individual people or to criticize the body of Christ.
If that is what you are doing, please stop it.

 

[Gary]

I don't think the point of this thread is to judge individual people or to criticize the body of Christ.
If that is what you are doing, please stop it.

Like.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I don't think the point of this thread is to judge individual people or to criticize the body of Christ.
If that is what you are doing, please stop it.

No one can be made to 'like', 'love', or accept the truth. Scripture is full of examples and testimonies of what happens when God's people did what He said, and what happens when they didn't do what He said.
If you have a particular, specific question, or even a general one,if I can answer it I will.
Meantime, the world is fallen and under a death sentence, as plainly stated all through God's Word.
He doesn't want anyone to die, but that won't stop people from dying.
He doesn't want anyone to sin, but that won't stop people from sinning.
HE DOES PROVIDE a way to be ALIVE ! --- that is the overall purpose I think, and the most important one.

 

[TOG]

Where did I say that? I said that the first Christians kept offering sacrifices while the temple still stood in Jerusalem. Since 70 AD there has been no place where sacrifices may be offered.

The TOG

Christians?

Please share the scripture that shows this.


JLB

Sorry I haven't answered this earlier. I had to take some time to find the verses for you. If you're looking for a verse that states "...and Paul sacrificed a goat", then you won't find one, but there are a number of places where it is implied that Christians made sacrifices.

And sailing from there we came the following day opposite Chios; the next day we touched at Samos; and the day after that we went to Miletus. For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 20:15-16 ESV)​

Pentecost is called the Feast of Weeks in the Old Testament. It was one of the 3 annual pilgrimage festivals, when all males were required to go up to Jerusalem. Unlike the other two (Passover and Tabernacles), ordinary Israelites didn't offer sacrifices on the Feast of Weeks, but the priests did offer special sacrifices in the Temple that day. Celebrating a festival implies agreement with what that festival stands for, so we may assume that Paul was not against the sacrifices that were being offered that day.

Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (I Cor. 5:8 ESV)​

The festival being referred to is Passover. The Passover sacrifice was as much a part of celebrating Passover as the Christmas tree is part of Christmas or Turkey is part of Thanksgiving.

After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow. (Acts 18:18 ESV)
​

Paul had taken the vow of a Nazirite. The Torah says that when someone completes a Nazirite vow, he is to cut his hair and offer a sacrifice of a male lamb, a ewe lamb, a ram, a basket of unleavened bread and wafers, oil, a grain offering, a drink offering and some of the hair he shaved off his head (Num. 6:13-18). Acts doesn't mention the sacrifices specifically, but when you consider how many there were, it should be obvious that "cut his hair" was a euphemism for the entire ritual. Later in Acts we read the story of 4 other Christians who had taken a Nazirite vow. In that instance, Paul pays for their sacrifices and purified himself along with them (Acts 21:17-24)

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

yes, that is true but would YOU offer for an atonement of your sins when you merely worshipped at the temple? was an offering for each sin. have you watched a lamb,goat die? I have by beheading. it doesn't say how the priest was to kill the offering. just that he did to offer it.

i aslo do wonder if said Christians also atoned like that. there were listing of sins that had to be repented of that if one did. so even then the believer had to cherry pic what part of the torah to follow. if you doubt, see Hebrews for that. the blood of lambs and goats couldn't atone.

 

[TOG]

Christians did not then, nor do they now need to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals. But, like I said earlier, not all sacrifices were atonement for sin. We are still free to offer other sacrifices voluntarily, or at least we would be if there were a temple and priesthood that we had access to. I don't know what your opinion is, but there is one interesting thing I've often noticed regarding the sacrificial system. Many Christians say that the entire sacrificial system, including both sacrifices for sin and other sacrifices, has been completely done away with, but they still expect people to tithe and do so themselves, without realizing that the tithe was part of the sacrificial system. If, as many Christians say, we Gentiles are required to tithe, then it is only logical that we are also required to offer the other sacrifices as well. If we are free to tithe, but not required to, then the same would apply to other voluntary sacrifices. But if the entire sacrificial system has been done away with and nobody is to offer any kind of sacrifice today, then the tithe has been done away with as well.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

Christians did not then, nor do they now need to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals. But, like I said earlier, not all sacrifices were atonement for sin. We are still free to offer other sacrifices voluntarily, or at least we would be if there were a temple and priesthood that we had access to. I don't know what your opinion is, but there is one interesting thing I've often noticed regarding the sacrificial system. Many Christians say that the entire sacrificial system, including both sacrifices for sin and other sacrifices, has been completely done away with, but they still expect people to tithe and do so themselves, without realizing that the tithe was part of the sacrificial system. If, as many Christians say, we Gentiles are required to tithe, then it is only logical that we are also required to offer the other sacrifices as well. If we are free to tithe, but not required to, then the same would apply to other voluntary sacrifices. But if the entire sacrificial system has been done away with and nobody is to offer any kind of sacrifice today, then the tithe has been done away with as well.

uhm so how would i do the nazarite vow?when it has a part for sin atonement?

6 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,

2 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, and thou hast said unto them, When a man or woman doeth singularly, by vowing a vow of a Nazarite, to be separate to Jehovah;

3 from wine and strong drink he doth keep separate; vinegar of wine, and vinegar of strong drink he doth not drink, and any juice of grapes he doth not drink, and grapes moist or dry he doth not eat;

4 all days of his separation, of anything which is made of the wine-vine, from kernels even unto husk, he doth not eat.

5 `All days of the vow of his separation a razor doth not pass over his head; till the fulness of the days which he doth separate to Jehovah he is holy; grown up hath the upper part of the hair of his head.

6 `All days of his keeping separate to Jehovah, near a dead person he doth not go;

7 for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister -- he is not unclean for them at their death, for the separation of his God [is] on his head;

8 all days of his separation he [is] holy to Jehovah.

9 `And when the dead dieth beside him in an instant, suddenly, and he hath defiled the head of his separation, then he hath shaved his head in the day of his cleansing; on the seventh day he doth shave it,

10 and on the eighth day he bringeth in two turtle-doves or two young pigeons unto the priest, unto the opening of the tent of meeting,

11 and the priest hath prepared one for a sin-offering, and one for a burnt-offering, and hath made atonement for him, because of that which he hath sinned by the body, and he hath hallowed his head on that day;

12 and he hath separated to Jehovah the days of his separation, and he hath brought in a lamb, a son of a year, for a guilt-offering, and the former days are fallen, for his separation hath been defiled.

13 `And this [is] the law of the Nazarite; in the day of the fulness of the days of his separation doth [one] bring him in unto the opening of the tent of meeting,

14 and he hath brought near his offering to Jehovah, one he-lamb, a son of a year, a perfect one, for a burnt-offering, and one she-lamb, a daughter of a year, a perfect one, for a sin-offering, and one ram, a perfect one, for peace-offerings,

15 and a basket of unleavened things of flour, cakes mixed with oil, and thin cakes of unleavened things anointed with oil, and their present, and their libations.

16 `And the priest hath brought [them] near before Jehovah, and hath made his sin-offering and his burnt-offering;

17 and the ram he maketh a sacrifice of peace-offerings to Jehovah, besides the basket of unleavened things; and the priest hath made its present and its libation.

18 `And the Nazarite hath shaved (at the opening of the tent of meeting) the head of his separation, and hath taken the hair of the head of his separation, and hath put [it] on the fire which [is] under the sacrifice of the peace-offerings.

19 `And the priest hath taken the boiled shoulder from the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one thin unleavened cake, and hath put on the palms of the Nazarite after his shaving his separation;

20 and the priest hath waved them, a wave-offering before Jehovah; it [is] holy to the priest, besides the breast of the wave-offering, and besides the leg of the heave-offering; and afterwards doth the Nazarite drink wine.

21 `This [is] the law of the Nazarite, who voweth his offering to Jehovah for his separation, apart from that which his hand attaineth; according to his vow which he voweth so he doth by the law of his separation.'

22 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,

23 `Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, saying, Thus ye do bless the sons of Israel, saying to them,

24 `Jehovah bless thee and keep thee;

25 `Jehovah cause His face to shine upon thee, and favour thee;

26 `Jehovah lift up His countenance upon thee, and appoint for thee -- peace.

27 `And they have put My name upon the sons of Israel, and I -- I do bless them.

there is clearly a part for sin offerings in there.

11 and the priest hath prepared one for a sin-offering, and one for a burnt-offering, and hath made atonement for him, because of that which he hath sinned by the body, and he hath hallowed his head on that day;

either one is a jew or not.

that's just one mentioning of the sin offering for breaking it, and it also say if one is faithful.

13 `And this [is] the law of the Nazarite; in the day of the fulness of the days of his separation doth [one] bring him in unto the opening of the tent of meeting,

14 and he hath brought near his offering to Jehovah, one he-lamb, a son of a year, a perfect one, for a burnt-offering, and one she-lamb, a daughter of a year, a perfect one, for a sin-offering, and one ram, a perfect one, for peace-offerings,

if they did do and it says they did, then we have a contradiction, which is resolvable in that the law and grace unto ad 70 were side by side, a period of transition.

when did the vow and ended that had to be done. or they did in part. today we cant do that. its clear that if the temple was to be that the way we would have to atone in that manner to do that way.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

The Law of Moses is a unit, if you miss in one point you have missed them all. One cannot say they are obeying the Law of Moses when they obey in one point and not in all points. Which says, it cannot be obeyed perfectly by any of us. Jesus was the only one who could and did do this because He really understood what it was saying.

so close , give a pink bubblegum cigar !

clarification: when people sin, it is because they disobey, not because they don't understand. they choose to disobey, whether they understand or not is immaterial. when God murdered 10,000 more or less Israelites for having idols, He didn't ever ask if they understood what they were doing. When God murdered ananias and saphira for lying to God, He didn't ask why they did it nor if they understood it.
God in all of His judgments did not ask the sinner(s) for justification of their sin. He never accepted any excuse from them.


humanism seeks to know why things happen, and to choose for themselves what to do from their own information.

God says "obey" . and His children, born of Him, JOYFULLY REJOICE AND OBEY in all things (even imaginations, dreams, thoughts, deeds , actions, EVERYTHING! subject to the LORD(Master) JESUS CHRIST.

 

[agua.]

You were correct. I did suggest that they were only told to love those within their borders. Then you suggested otherwise and found the Ex. and Prov. scriptures. I posted Deut. etc.
Then I posted the scriptures that seem to related only to the foreigner, gentile.
I don't think the Law of Moses ever suggests to 'hate' anyone. That was not what I was suggesting at all. Only that different people are treated differently.
I guess I can see why the Jews were confused. Yes, Jesus straightened out a lot of things just by the good Samaritan story, which I'm sure didn't please them either seeing that the Samaritans were despised.
So if neighbor means all people than what does that say about who can be charged interest on a loan and the discharging of a loan in the Jubiliee year? What does that say about the differences in the way a Hebrew slave and a foreign slave are treated differently?
When I read these things then I think that Jesus meant do not harm anyone, do protect all life and provide food, clothing and shelter for all people as they are essential to maintaining life, do not think you are better than someone else.
I think that there were things like Korbin that were added by the leaders. But I don't think all the confusion was just because of added rules.

I suggest it was only the heard hearted Jews who didn't understand the spirit of the laws. There has always been a remnant/number of them who did/do. A bit like Christians. At that time they were specifically instructed how to treat their Brethren and they needed to discern how this applied to foreigners/enemies. Jesus expected them to understand.

I'm not sure how civil Jewish laws can reflect on loving enemies. Do you think National civil laws/liberties that exclude foreigners means not loving them ?

 

[JLB]

Christians did not then, nor do they now need to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals. But, like I said earlier, not all sacrifices were atonement for sin. We are still free to offer other sacrifices voluntarily, or at least we would be if there were a temple and priesthood that we had access to. I don't know what your opinion is, but there is one interesting thing I've often noticed regarding the sacrificial system. Many Christians say that the entire sacrificial system, including both sacrifices for sin and other sacrifices, has been completely done away with, but they still expect people to tithe and do so themselves, without realizing that the tithe was part of the sacrificial system. If, as many Christians say, we Gentiles are required to tithe, then it is only logical that we are also required to offer the other sacrifices as well. If we are free to tithe, but not required to, then the same would apply to other voluntary sacrifices. But if the entire sacrificial system has been done away with and nobody is to offer any kind of sacrifice today, then the tithe has been done away with as well.

The TOG​

The Tithe like the rest of the righteous requirements that were seen in the law of Moses were obeyed by Abraham 430 years before the law was added because of transgression.

If there were transgressions before the law was added, then there were lawful commandments before the law was added.

The laws we are under today, now that Messiah has come are the laws of the Kingdom of God, not the law of Moses.

For the law was added until... The Seed should come.

For the law and prophets were until... John, since then the kingdom of God is proclaimed.

Not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass away until...the things in the law are fulfilled.

Jesus fulfilled the law, therefore it has passed away.

The Seed has come, therefore what was added has vanished away.

Now that the law has passed away, there is neither Jew nor Gentile for we are one in Christ Jesus.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Christians did not then, nor do they now need to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals. But, like I said earlier, not all sacrifices were atonement for sin. We are still free to offer other sacrifices voluntarily, or at least we would be if there were a temple and priesthood that we had access to. I don't know what your opinion is, but there is one interesting thing I've often noticed regarding the sacrificial system. Many Christians say that the entire sacrificial system, including both sacrifices for sin and other sacrifices, has been completely done away with, but they still expect people to tithe and do so themselves, without realizing that the tithe was part of the sacrificial system. If, as many Christians say, we Gentiles are required to tithe, then it is only logical that we are also required to offer the other sacrifices as well. If we are free to tithe, but not required to, then the same would apply to other voluntary sacrifices. But if the entire sacrificial system has been done away with and nobody is to offer any kind of sacrifice today, then the tithe has been done away with as well.

The TOG​

The tithe of the OT is not required. Paul explains giving from the heart and that there is a blessing in doing so.
I've never studied what all the different sacrifices were for. But I believe they were all fulfilled in Messiah.

 

[TOG]

uhm so how would i do the nazarite vow?

You can still make the vow, but it would have to be for the rest of your life, since you can't finish it without the temple and the sacrifices.

when it has a part for sin atonement?

Notice what the "sin" is in that context. Is it really sinful to have someone else die in the same room you happen to be in?

that's just one mentioning of the sin offering for breaking it, and it also say if one is faithful.

That is interesting. Think about it... A man makes a vow to abstain from alcohol and do the other things that are required of nazirites for a period of one year. He keeps his vow perfectly, and one year later comes to the temple to complete his vow. He has to offer a sin offering, but for what sin? If he did everything required of a nazirite for the entire period of his vow, what is he atoning for?

I don't understand everything about the sacrifices, but it seems to me that what is called a "sin offering" in our English Bibles was something more than just an atonement or punishment for sin. Not only were sin offerings sacrificed in the cases you mentioned, where there is no obvious sin involved, but also after a woman gave birth and when lepers were cleansed. A sin offering was even made to atone for the altar of incense (Ex. 30:10). What sin could the altar of incense possibly have committed? There must be something more here than just sin in the way we understand that word.

Like I said, I don't understand everything, but I think there's a big hint in the fact that the Hebrew word translated as "offering" means "to draw close". Perhaps the idea is not a punishment for sin, but a way to draw close to God after something, which may or may not be sinful, has drawn you away from Him.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

but I think there's a big hint in the fact that the Hebrew word translated as "offering" means "to draw close". Perhaps the idea is not a punishment for sin, but a way to draw close to God after something, which may or may not be sinful, has drawn you away from Him. The TOG

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:19-22

Jesus Christ is our New and Living Way.

We are not to draw near by some "other" way.

He is the Way.

Any other way involves another Gospel, which is why I asked you earlier the question which comes from the passage in Galatians.


6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:6-7

In your opinion, what do you believe Paul is referring to here in his letter when he says "a different Gospel"?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

so close , give a pink bubblegum cigar !

clarification: when people sin, it is because they disobey, not because they don't understand. they choose to disobey, whether they understand or not is immaterial. when God murdered 10,000 more or less Israelites for having idols, He didn't ever ask if they understood what they were doing. When God murdered ananias and saphira for lying to God, He didn't ask why they did it nor if they understood it.
God in all of His judgments did not ask the sinner(s) for justification of their sin. He never accepted any excuse from them.


humanism seeks to know why things happen, and to choose for themselves what to do from their own information.

God says "obey" . and His children, born of Him, JOYFULLY REJOICE AND OBEY in all things (even imaginations, dreams, thoughts, deeds , actions, EVERYTHING! subject to the LORD(Master) JESUS CHRIST.

It is clear to me that you did not understand what I was talking about.

 

[Deborah13]

I suggest it was only the heard hearted Jews who didn't understand the spirit of the laws. There has always been a remnant/number of them who did/do. A bit like Christians. At that time they were specifically instructed how to treat their Brethren and they needed to discern how this applied to foreigners/enemies. Jesus expected them to understand.

I'm not sure how civil Jewish laws can reflect on loving enemies. Do you think National civil laws/liberties that exclude foreigners means not loving them ?

I think we actually found the laws that cover how foreigners were to be treated with kindness, not to leave them without the essentials of life? So to me that means they knew that, it was written in their law.
As to your question, the answer is no.

 

[Deborah13]

You can still make the vow, but it would have to be for the rest of your life, since you can't finish it without the temple and the sacrifices.

Notice what the "sin" is in that context. Is it really sinful to have someone else die in the same room you happen to be in?

That is interesting. Think about it... A man makes a vow to abstain from alcohol and do the other things that are required of nazirites for a period of one year. He keeps his vow perfectly, and one year later comes to the temple to complete his vow. He has to offer a sin offering, but for what sin? If he did everything required of a nazirite for the entire period of his vow, what is he atoning for?

I don't understand everything about the sacrifices, but it seems to me that what is called a "sin offering" in our English Bibles was something more than just an atonement or punishment for sin. Not only were sin offerings sacrificed in the cases you mentioned, where there is no obvious sin involved, but also after a woman gave birth and when lepers were cleansed. A sin offering was even made to atone for the altar of incense (Ex. 30:10). What sin could the altar of incense possibly have committed? There must be something more here than just sin in the way we understand that word.

Like I said, I don't understand everything, but I think there's a big hint in the fact that the Hebrew word translated as "offering" means "to draw close". Perhaps the idea is not a punishment for sin, but a way to draw close to God after something, which may or may not be sinful, has drawn you away from Him.

The TOG​

I was reading yesterday on a Jewish site about the sacrifices and offerings and I need to read it again. But I think your understanding is very close to what I read. The woman you mentioned had not sinned, it was a purification right, personally I believe this is because of the blood involved. The leper was not in sin as we might think of sin but was purified because of the illness. The altar, again purification.
And I read that the sin sacrifices were only for sins that were Not willful, malicious sin. All I can think of
is that this type of sin were the ones punishable by death?
Which makes sense in that King David would not have made a sacrifice for his willful sin because there was not one to be offered.
Which says to me at that point one must turn to God only in repentance, as that is the only hope that is left. Which we know David did.

I not saying I have gotten this right but that is just the way I'm thinking.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

The Law of Moses is a unit, if you miss in one point you have missed them all. One cannot say they are obeying the Law of Moses when they obey in one point and not in all points. Which says, it cannot be obeyed perfectly by any of us. Jesus was the only one who could and did do this because He really understood what it was saying.

I thought that you are saying that Jesus was the only one who could and did do this because He really understood what it was saying.

I still think that that is what you are saying. Is there another meaning you have there that I don't understand what you are talking about?

It is clear to me that you did not understand what I was talking about.

 

[agua.]

I think we actually found the laws that cover how foreigners were to be treated with kindness, not to leave them without the essentials of life? So to me that means they knew that, it was written in their law.
As to your question, the answer is no.

I'm a bit confused.

I don't think the Law of Moses ever suggests to 'hate' anyone. That was not what I was suggesting at all. Only that different people are treated differently.
I guess I can see why the Jews were confused. Yes, Jesus straightened out a lot of things just by the good Samaritan story, which I'm sure didn't please them either seeing that the Samaritans were despised.

Jesus expected them to know that they should love the Samaritans as their neghbours how can you see why the Jews were confused ?