The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[for_his_glory]

Ok where does the scriptures say that a person indwell by the Holy Spirit never sins?



Show me in Moses Law where 1 Peter 2:13 is supported.



What scripture says that Moses Law was written on their hearts and minds?

I never said that we who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit never sin. I said John the Baptist was without sin if you read and understand Luke chapter one as from his youth he set out to the desert to be prepared for salvation.

All of the Mosaic laws support that of 1 Peter 2:13, 14 as the laws of God are His will for the Israelites to follow all His commandments so they would stay in line with His will in all thirtyfour catagories of the law. Just as the old covenant was made to keep Gods people in line, even now a greater coveant of grace has been established. Just as the laws of the Torah should be followed in Gods will which is love (heart) that they needed to keep in mind that will of God so the same even now under the new coveant of grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Where is Moses Law does it say to love your enemy as yourself?
Where in Moses Law does it say that if a man takes another wife he is committing adultry?
If you can find even just those two teachings directly from Jesus in Moses Law, I will reconsidered my posititon.

Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have a question. When we say, 'The Law of God' are we referring to the 10 Commandments?
Also, when we say, 'We are no longer (under the law), rather we are under grace'..what are we saying here.
I'm always confused with what the Bible refers to as the Law, and I really wanna learn. - DRS81

Maybe this will help and also you can look online at this link www.jewfaq.org/613.htm as there is a lot of info there to study

Old Mosaic Covenant.................................New Spiritual Covenant


OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14.................... NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6

FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7, 9:1.............. SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7, 10:1-9

Came by Moses... John 1:17.................... Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6, 9:15

Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3........... Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16

Law of Moses... Acts 13:38-39.................. Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2

Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6................... Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2

NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2............................... Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27

Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1................... Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25

Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6............................ Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31

Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7........................ Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8

Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9 ............. Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9

A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17.......................... The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18

FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18........................ NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6, 10:9

Priesthood CHANGED...Heb. 7:12............ UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24

MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13................ ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12

IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19............................. PERFECT... Heb. 7:19

Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19.................. Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28

Circumcision... Ex. 12:48............................ Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12

WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10.......................... NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8

REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3................. FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17

YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3................ PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4

SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3......................... SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26

AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11.............. MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10

MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5............. HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2, 11

Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11............................... Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14

WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18......... POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16

NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13....................... ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15

Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13............. Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28

Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13................ Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14

PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15................ SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9

Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19............ Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14

NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28........................... COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12

NO justification... Acts 13:39..................... BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39

BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10...................... REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13

ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13.......................... CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11

Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7...................... Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18

ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8, 5:3................ ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19

 

[for_his_glory]

Who is your brother?
What pagans where within their gates? Well they had pagan slaves. They were to treat those slaves well. But they were not treated the same way as a Hebrew indentured slave. They did not have the same rights. If I remember correctly, they were not released in the Jubilee year as Hebrew indentured slaves were. But I will have to get back with you on that.
If a slave married while they were in slavery and had children and he was released by his master he could leave but he could not take his family with him because they belonged to his master. That is in Moses Law. But I will have to go back and look at whether this was the Hebrew slave as well as the captured slave.


I am certainly open to a better understanding if someone can provide that scripture.

Is this what you were looking for - To keep the Canaanite slave forever
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

 

[for_his_glory]

Those are good ones now let's look at who this enemy (the guy that doesn't like you is).

Deu 22:1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.
Deu 22:2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.
Deu 22:3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.
Deu 22:4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

not nigh unto thee = the guy that doesn't like you
But notice he is your brother, he is an Israelite not a pagan

[qoute]Solomon also shows the correct treatment of enemies and I guess it must have been implied by the Mosaic law. imo

Pro 25:21-22 KJV If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: (22) For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Pro 24:17-18 KJV Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: (18) Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

I don't remember seeing anything like this in Moses Law, they may be, but we have to look and see.
The first one made me chuckle, this is the one my unsaved mother used to tell me. She said it this way, "If someone is mean to you, kill them with kindness". I don't think she was thinking quite what the Lord intended by not that far off either. It's a good way to turn aside wrath and bring it back on them.

The next once again I believe this is talking about your brother even if he hates you they/we should never be glad when someone falls into sin. The Lord would/could be every upset with us if we are glad someone sins.[/quote]

I believe this is the Mosaic law you are looking for possibly!

Not to keep alive any individual of the seven Canaanite nations

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deu 20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

 

[JLB]

I have a question. When we say, 'The Law of God' are we referring to the 10 Commandments?
Also, when we say, 'We are no longer (under the law), rather we are under grace'..what are we saying here.
I'm always confused with what the Bible refers to as the Law, and I really wanna learn. - DRS81

Start with this scripture written by a former Pharisee of Pharisee's, who concerning the righteousness in the Law was blameless.

This man wrote two thirds of the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Probably the greatest legal mind concerning the law of Moses, who became a Christian and an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses is to be understood as different from the Torah [Law] which is the first 5 Books of the Bible, yet were both written by Moses.

Moses wrote of things past, as well as recoded the events of His day which included the Book of the Law of Moses.



Do you know what the law of Moses was added to?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Do you know what the law of Moses was added to?

Hi JLB. I do not. I'm still a little shaky on this subject, but I learning. If website is wrong in info, please correct it..

I have been reading up on subject a little bit today. There's a difference between the law of Moses and the law of God I think. --- Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed Christ Jesus. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16,19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ, and this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." (Psalm 111:8)... http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/different_laws.html

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB. I do not. I'm still a little shaky on this subject, but I learning. If website is wrong in info, please correct it..

I have been reading up on subject a little bit today. There's a difference between the law of Moses and the law of God I think. --- Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed Christ Jesus. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16,19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ, and this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." (Psalm 111:8)... http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/different_laws.html

Paul is saying by the Spirit that the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed [Messiah] should come.


15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


The context here is the Abrahamic Covenant.

By saying added, the Spirit is indicating that the law was a part of something greater.

By saying until, the Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.

The Laws of God are eternal.

The Law of Abraham was temporary.

Some of the laws of God were seen in the law of Moses.

Because the law of Moses has vanished away [Hebrews 8:13] does not mean that the laws of Gods Kingdom have vanished away.

Murder was a sin long before the law of Moses, and continues to be today.

The 10 Commandments were in the earth before the law of Moses.

God gave us the Sabbath in Genesis.

Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made Genesis 2:3

However we do not keep the Sabbath as prescribed in the Law of Moses.

Never the Less the Sabbath is the 7th day, Saturday.







JLB

 

[DRS81]

The 10 Commandments were in the earth before the law of Moses.

I have a good question. How did people know the 10 commandments before God revealed them to Moses and Moses revealing them to others.

 

[Edward]

post 161

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[Deborah13]

I never said that we who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit never sin. I said John the Baptist was without sin if you read and understand Luke chapter one as from his youth he set out to the desert to be prepared for salvation.

I didn't word my question well, sorry. This is what you said...
"Luke Chapter 1, John had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him even before he was born and after his birth he grew and waxed strong in spirit as his full concentration was on the knowledge of salvation as being the forerunner of Christ."

So what I should have asked.....
I don't understand why you would think John never sinned. It is my understanding that Jesus is the only man to ever live who never sinned?

All of the Mosaic laws support that of 1 Peter 2:13, 14 as the laws of God are His will for the Israelites to follow all His commandments so they would stay in line with His will in all thirtyfour catagories of the law. Just as the old covenant was made to keep Gods people in line, even now a greater coveant of grace has been established. Just as the laws of the Torah should be followed in Gods will which is love (heart) that they needed to keep in mind that will of God so the same even now under the new coveant of grace.

I don't understand. The Christian Jew were/are do not have different laws than any other Christian.
In Christ there is no Jew or Greek (non-Jew).
Surely the covenant that all Christians are a part of through faith in Christ are not lawless but I don't see what that has to do with Moses Law that was given to the Israelites until the Seed, the Messiah came?
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

I believe Peter is telling these Christian Jews that they need to obey Roman Empire laws and be grateful for good rulers who punish evil. He wants the other citizens to see that they are law abiding citizens and show them good works to glorify God.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

btw - not just good rulers were to be obeyed. even wicked rulers, and task-masters, and so on - the believers were to obey them as if obeying the Lord Jesus (except not to do anything against the law of Moses they knew already, like murder or bear false witness)

Ephesians 6

Romans 13

 

[Deborah13]

Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

Yes, you can see in a previous post with agua we got to Deut. 10:19. Thanks for finding it.
The second one is not what I was talking about. In Moses Law there is a law that makes a provision for first wife, when her husband has taken a second wife. Not because he divorced her, he now has more than one wife at a time. Like King David. It was not illegal to have more than one wife. If the husband neglects his first wife by not taking care of her the same way he did before he took the second wife, the first wife can leave.

"According to the Torah and the Talmud, a man was permitted to marry more than one wife, but a woman could not marry more than one man." http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm#Relationship
Exo 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Exo 21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

 

[Deborah13]

Is this what you were looking for - To keep the Canaanite slave forever
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Yes these and a couple more but that was my point. Thanks again.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't remember seeing anything like this in Moses Law, they may be, but we have to look and see.
The first one made me chuckle, this is the one my unsaved mother used to tell me. She said it this way, "If someone is mean to you, kill them with kindness". I don't think she was thinking quite what the Lord intended by not that far off either. It's a good way to turn aside wrath and bring it back on them.

The next once again I believe this is talking about your brother even if he hates you they/we should never be glad when someone falls into sin. The Lord would/could be every upset with us if we are glad someone sins.

I believe this is the Mosaic law you are looking for possibly!

Not to keep alive any individual of the seven Canaanite nations

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deu 20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

God told them to do this at that time in history when they were conquering the tribes on the land God had given them but they are not laws.
Here is a good Jewish site that lists all the laws. They are arranged by category so that it is easier to study them and they give the corresponding scripture. The site is written by a practicing Jewish person.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[Deborah13]

Paul is saying by the Spirit that the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed [Messiah] should come.


15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


The context here is the Abrahamic Covenant.

By saying added, the Spirit is indicating that the law was a part of something greater.

By saying until, the Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.

The Laws of God are eternal.

The Law of Abraham was temporary.

Some of the laws of God were seen in the law of Moses.

Because the law of Moses has vanished away [Hebrews 8:13] does not mean that the laws of Gods Kingdom have vanished away.

Murder was a sin long before the law of Moses, and continues to be today.

The 10 Commandments were in the earth before the law of Moses.

God gave us the Sabbath in Genesis.

Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made Genesis 2:3

However we do not keep the Sabbath as prescribed in the Law of Moses.

Never the Less the Sabbath is the 7th day, Saturday.

JLB

I have a question for you.
It takes two people to make a covenant, correct?
When was the covenant of the Law of Moses made with the Israelites?

 

[Deborah13]

btw - not just good rulers were to be obeyed. even wicked rulers, and task-masters, and so on - the believers were to obey them as if obeying the Lord Jesus (except not to do anything against the law of Moses they knew already, like murder or bear false witness)

Ephesians 6

Romans 13

Question were the Jewish Christians told to do/or not do, different laws than the non-Jewish Christians?
I don't think so.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm a bit confused.

You gave me a scripture from Exodus and I found the same law in Deuteronomy that showed they were suppose to treat the foreigner with kindness, food and raiment, so they knew they should be kind to the foreigner. So when Jesus told them that their neighbor included the stranger (foreigner) with kindness they should have known, yes. The foreigner is not necessarily an enemy. The enemy was the guy who didn't like you, that is listed with your brother, and is another Jew or so it appears to read.

Jesus expected them to know that they should love the Samaritans as their neghbours how can you see why the Jews were confused ?

This is the enemy.
Exo 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

These are fellow Israelites.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother (H251, or kindred) in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, (H5997,comrade, kindred) and not suffer sin upon him.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people (the Israelites), but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.

neighbor = (H7453, brother, husband, fellow, friend, kindred)

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger (H1616, sojourner,alien): for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The reason I can see why some of them were confused...When Jesus said, love you neighbor they would have thought of the law that says, "love your neighbor as yourself" but that law clearly says that it is referring to other Israelites (the children of your people).
There are four different Hebrew words that are used in these scriptures. Clearly three of them are talking about their people.

I'm starting another post because this is kind of long.

 

[agua.]

I have a question for you.
It takes two people to make a covenant, correct?
When was the covenant of the Law of Moses made with the Israelites?

I don't think it necessarily takes 2 people to make a covenant because the covenant with Abraham was sealed while he was asleep I think ie. God ratified it with Himself.

The Mosaic was made after Yahweh gave the laws to Moses.

Exo 24:4-8 KJV And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. (5) And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. (6) And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. (7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. (8) And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

 

[agua.]

You gave me a scripture from Exodus and I found the same law in Deuteronomy that showed they were suppose to treat the foreigner with kindness, food and raiment, so they knew they should be kind to the foreigner. So when Jesus told them that their neighbor included the stranger (foreigner) with kindness they should have known, yes. The foreigner is not necessarily an enemy. The enemy was the guy who didn't like you, that is listed with your brother, and is another Jew or so it appears to read.



This is the enemy.
Exo 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

These are fellow Israelites.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother (H251, or kindred) in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, (H5997,comrade, kindred) and not suffer sin upon him.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people (the Israelites), but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.

neighbor = (H7453, brother, husband, fellow, friend, kindred)

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger (H1616, sojourner,alien): for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The reason I can see why some of them were confused...When Jesus said, love you neighbor they would have thought of the law that says, "love your neighbor as yourself" but that law clearly says that it is referring to other Israelites (the children of your people).
There are four different Hebrew words that are used in these scriptures. Clearly three of them are talking about their people.

I'm starting another post because this is kind of long.

I'm starting another post because this is kind of long.

No need for another post you're only repeating what you've already said. I understand what you're saying but disagree that the Jews had any reason not to love their enemies as discerned from their laws. The problem was with their hearts/understanding not the law.