The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT...

[Eventide]

From post#157 -

... - let's get back to the analogy -
Mr.X and Mr.Y hear the Gospel. Mr.X believes and Mr.Y does not. Now, remove all factors,causes,parameters that are common to both Mr.X and Mr.Y. So for instance, the Gospel which was preached, is a necessary correlated factor in man's salvation but since it's common to both Mr.X and Mr.Y, it cannot be the differentiating cause in their responses.

So you see, I'm not referring to perhaps the 99.9% common factors that play a role in man's salvation - I'm very specifically referring to that 0.1% differentiating cause. ...I'm referring to this very narrow differential cause and saying that this differential cause is not the flesh's works. Do I need to word it differently for you to understand more clearly?[these percentages are just for argument sake - not that I believe they should be partitioned like this]

So the question is - What is that differentiating cause that resulted in Mr.X believing?
a) Man's own ability/wisdom/goodness/understanding in the flesh
OR
b) God's grace in the Spirit's working in Mr.X?

With respect to this, re-read my previous posts[#152,#153 etc.] and reconcile the issues raised.

If you chose (a), that's where you say that the flesh profits that bit. Clarified?

I didn't choose anything.. I asked you a simple question.

Show me where I said that the flesh PROFITS anything.. can you do that please..?

And while you're at it.. tell me if your opinion/belief of the scriptures could be WRONG..?

 

[ivdavid]

this completely detroys the entire first premise of the Calvinist.. that men are totally depraved

You disagree that men are totally depraved. Therefore you believe that the flesh profits something.

What does total depravity mean? That there is NOTHING good in the flesh - the flesh does not understand nor seek after God - totally unprofitable. The flesh cannot obey a single commandment of God - because of sin[nature of rebellion] in the flesh.

If you disagree with the above, then you are holding that the flesh is not totally unprofitable - therefore profits at least something.

I didn't choose anything..

Not explicitly - but this is what you're operating from.

What do you gain by refraining? I thought you wanted to hold a fair discussion on truth - if you're taking the time to meditate on this, then say so - I won't push you. But if you're simply evading, then say that at least. Else, I'm expecting your explicit answer to post#180 in order to progress in our discussion.

tell me if your opinion/belief of the scriptures could be WRONG..?

When I understand something of the Scripture in the flesh, it will be wrong even though I might think otherwise. But when the Spirit grants repentance, corrects and teaches truth, then what I believe in the Spirit can never be false.

Waiting for some response on post#180 to progress....

 

[Eventide]

You disagree that men are totally depraved. Therefore you believe that the flesh profits something.

Nice try. I disagree with total depravity because it's not biblical.. period.. I do not need to filter everything that I read in the scriptures through TULIP as you do.

What does total depravity mean? That there is NOTHING good in the flesh - the flesh does not understand nor seek after God

I already proved to you from the scriptures that Adam could HEAR God's voice and that he could UNDERSTAND God's voice, after he fell in disobedience.. this is a scriptural fact.

I also proved to you from John's gospel that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and of course this is spiritual in nature..

So there goes your total depravity right out the window.

When I understand something of the Scripture in the flesh, it will be wrong even though I might think otherwise. But when the Spirit grants repentance, corrects and teaches truth, then what I believe in the Spirit can never be false.

And so you're capable of being wrong.. no different than anyone else.

 

[ivdavid]

I already proved to you from the scriptures that Adam could HEAR God's voice and that he could UNDERSTAND God's voice, after he fell in disobedience.. this is a scriptural fact.
I also proved to you from John's gospel that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and of course this is spiritual in nature..

Negated/Clarified in post#177.

"works of the flesh" means works by man's own ability/wisdom/will/understanding etc.
"works in the Spirit" means the Spirit's working in you to will and to act.

When Adam heard God and understood, the Spirit enabled him to do so - it was not a work of the flesh. Refer post#177.

I have not contested John 1:9 - how can I when I'm not even referring to what's common to all men - I'm referring only to the differentiating cause of one's faith. Again this has been dealt with in post#177.

What does total depravity mean? That there is NOTHING good in the flesh - the flesh does not understand nor seek after God

I disagree with total depravity because it's not biblical.

You can read about the "moving the goalposts" logical fallacy before reading this -
Is Rom 7:18 , Rom 3:11 Biblical ?

Still waiting on your response to post#180 to progress.....

 

[Eventide]

Negated/Clarified in post#177.

Negated in your mind perhaps.. but that's only because it's impossible for a Calvinist to be proven wrong, even according to the scriptures.

When Adam heard God and understood, the Spirit enabled him to do so - it was not a work of the flesh. Refer post#177.

Again, it's that TULIP filter.. the word of God says absolutely nothing about the Spirit enabling Adam to HEAR or UNDERSTAND what God was saying.

I have not contested John 1:9 - how can I when I'm not even referring to what's common to all men - I'm referring only to the differentiating cause of one's faith. Again this has been dealt with in post#177.

So there's another perfect scriptural example of the true light of God working in all men.. and of course this is also what the SPIRIT of God was SENT into the WORLD to do.. to convict men of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

I also mentioned that it's pointless to go on and on when everything you write is filtered through TULIP.

 

[Eventide]

Put off the OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts...

Another way to understand that the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect (chosen) of God and that we're not.. is to look at the dual nature of the Christian life..

Do most Christians realize and understand that a born again Christian has two natures living within the same lump, ie, the same earthen vessel.. ?

That's right.. there's me who was born naturally through my parents according to the FLESH and there's Christ in me.. my hope of glory.. my natural life according to the flesh is what the Apostle Paul refers to as the OLD MAN, and he is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. there is nothing good in the flesh and therefore there is nothing good that the OLD MAN can do..

Then there's the Spirit of Christ which was birthed in us when we were born again according to the power of the Holy Spirit of God. This is what Paul calls the NEW MAN who is created (in us) in righteouness and true holiness.. He can't do anything bad..

This is why we're to PUT OFF the old man and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Another perfectly clear illustration which shows WHO the elect of God actually is.. for I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.. and even after a person is born again in Christ, their old man remains condemned and it's the LIFE of Christ within them that is JUSTIFIED..

 

[savedbygrace57]

How can the Head be Elected and the body not Elected ? Thats crazy..

 

[Eventide]

How can the Head be Elected and the body not Elected ? Thats crazy..

It's simple.. because they're elected (chosen) IN CHRIST..

ZERO elected in Adam..

All elected in Christ, the Last Adam..

It's a simple biblical fact that all are condemned in the first Adam and justified freely in the Last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even

It's simple.. because they're elected (chosen) IN CHRIST..

Right, not into Christ, but in Christ. They were Chosen in Him because He was their Spiritual Father and they were in His Loins as seed, Just as they were chosen in Adam and their physical lives were in Him at creation..

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

It's a simple biblical fact that all are condemned in the first Adam and justified freely in the Last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ.

The elect were sinners in the First Adam, but never condemned, for their sins had been laid on Christ for Him to be condemned for their sake.

God does not lay charges or condemn His Elect rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died

 

[Eventide]

even

They were Chosen in Him because He was their Spiritual Father and they were in His Loins as seed,

The bible doesn't say that we're Christ's seed... in fact it says that we are ADOPTED children. We're not God, we're His creatures.

Just as they were chosen in Adam and their physical lives were in Him at creation..

The bible could not be more clear about the fact that all are CONDEMNED in Adam.. there are NONE chosen in Adam, all in Christ. I know that this will not matter to you, but here it is..

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Eventide]

even:



The elect were sinners in the First Adam, but never condemned, for their sins had been laid on Christ for Him to be condemned for their sake.

God does not lay charges or condemn His Elect rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died

Eph 2 makes it perfectly clear that before we were in Christ, that we were by nature children of wrath, just as others..

Also, why have you ignored my simple question to you..

Are you exempt from taking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Christ ?

 

[ivdavid]

Also, why have you ignored my simple question to you..
Are you exempt from taking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Christ ?

Why do you find fault with others when you yourself ignore questions? This has anyway been dealt with in post#150 which you either missed or chose not to respond to.

If you want an even and fair discussion, why don't you reply to post#180 and related posts? Else, why don't you take some time off to evaluate what's been presented to you and then get back? [It's difficult to get through my intent just by the tone of a post - but it is out of concern and not presumption that I'm advising you.]

 

[Eventide]

Why do you find fault with others when you yourself ignore questions? This has anyway been dealt with in post#150 which you either missed or chose not to respond to.

I'm not faulting anyone, just asking a simple question... and your response is perhaps one of the most disingenuous I've heard... 'that you see no contextual connection between the scriptural fact that any man who comes to Christ must take up his cross, DENY HIMSELF, and follow Christ.. and ELECTION.

How about that I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me.. any contextual connection there or will you persist in filtering everything through TULIP and believe that God chose YOU unconditionally, rather than His Son IN YOU.. How about after you're saved.. who's life is justified in you, your old man or is it CHRIST in you ?

If you want an even and fair discussion, why don't you reply to post#180 and related posts? Else, why don't you take some time off to evaluate what's been presented to you and then get back? [It's difficult to get through my intent just by the tone of a post - but it is out of concern and not presumption that I'm advising you.]

What's the point in talking about non scriptural Mr A and Mr B all the while knowing that you can't even think outside of the confines of TULIP ? What's the point in that.. do you want to embrace the unbiblical doctrines of Calvin as presented in TULIP ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

Eph 2 makes it perfectly clear that before we were in Christ, that we were by nature children of wrath, just as others..

Yes, the elect were by nature children of wrath as others, but they were not condemned legally for their being children of wrath by nature as like others because Christ had taken their condemnation upon himself.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

Are you exempt from taking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Christ ?

Thats not relevant to this issue, so its none of your business, stick with the subject..which is Christ not me, besides no man is exempt from aything God has appointed unto them..Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

 

[Eventide]

even:



Yes, the elect were by nature children of wrath as others, but they were not condemned legally for their being children of wrath by nature as like others because Christ had taken their condemnation upon himself.

If this were true then Romans 5:18 would be a lie, and that's not possible.

Also, why are you and I and every last person in Adam dying..? We're still under the exact same judgment pronounced upon him from Genesis.. 'that ye shall surely die'.. the wages of sin is death and every one of us has sin IN US.. except Christ of Christ.. there is no sin in Him. There's nothing good in us and everything good in HIM.

Also.. who do you serve, yourself or is it CHRIST IN YOU..? Can a man serve TWO masters..?? Who's Lord of your life, you or Christ.. who's the elect there ?

 

[Eventide]

even:



Thats not relevant to this issue, so its none of your business, stick with the subject..

It's VITAL to the subject... why else would you not simply answer it..?

Obviously election is not about YOU and I when we're flat out told to take up our cross and DENY OURSELVES.. but again, it's impossible for most Calvinists to be proven wrong so they either ignore it or just pretend that it's not relevant.. lol

 

[Eventide]

I think that if you're willing to remove the TULIP constraints from your reading of the living and powerful word of God then things might change.. until then it's pointless.. everything must be chedked with John Calvin first..

Who would think that the infinitely glorious, living, powerful, effectual, word of God would be summed up in TULIP.. I mean come on... if that's not one of the most shallow perspectives concerning the holy scriptures, then what is..?

 

[savedbygrace57]

even says:

If this were true then Romans 5:18 would be a lie, and that's not possible.

rom 5:


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Yes, Judgment did come upon all men to condemnation, that is not denied, but that condemnation was imputed to Christ, and not to the all men..Why do you think it says Christ died for our sins 1 cor 15:3 ?

That also includes that He died because of our condemnation..So again, the legal condemnation the elect desrved, was never laid to their Charge rom 8:33-34..