The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT...

[ivdavid]

..continuing,

In my sequence, being born of the Spirit/spiritual regeneration enables Man to believe in Christ.

Which is obviously wrong in light of what Eph 1:13 clearly teaches. Being sealed with the Spirit of God comes AFTER a person believes the gospel.

Why is it "obviously" wrong? I don't see any contradiction here.

From your perspective, it may seem wrong because you see your step 5[being spiritually regenerated by the Spirit] as an independent event. But for me, all this is a continuous working of God.

The sequence of events are arranged based on when they start with respect to each other - not necessarily indicating that each step ends before the next step begins. Our spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit begins at step 4, enables our faith in step 5, places us in the body of Christ in step 6 and then is sealed as a pledge of God after step 6 ends. My point 4 overlaps over points 5 & 6 and ends sometime after point 6.

The process of spiritual regeneration is completed and the Holy Spirit is declared sealed in us after we believe - this does not imply that the Holy Spirit wasn't given to us much earlier and that He did not begin His work in us much earlier.

 

[Sam21]

You are saved in a moment of time, you were headed for hell, you made a real commitment to God and called upon Jesus to be your Saviour,now you are saved. Ten minutes before you made that commitment to God you were headed for hell,immediately after making that commitment to God you are saved and going to Heaven, it is a gift from God. Now you must continue to walk in your faith or else you could lose what you have, salvation is 100% a gift from God, to believe that you are in any way earning salvation is to miss salvation.

 

[Eventide]

..continuing,

Why is it "obviously" wrong? I don't see any contradiction here.

From your perspective, it may seem wrong because you see your step 5[being spiritually regenerated by the Spirit] as an independent event. But for me, all this is a continuous working of God.

The sequence of events are arranged based on when they start with respect to each other - not necessarily indicating that each step ends before the next step begins. Our spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit begins at step 4, enables our faith in step 5, places us in the body of Christ in step 6 and then is sealed as a pledge of God after step 6 ends. My point 4 overlaps over points 5 & 6 and ends sometime after point 6.

The process of spiritual regeneration is completed and the Holy Spirit is declared sealed in us after we believe - this does not imply that the Holy Spirit wasn't given to us much earlier and that He did not begin His work in us much earlier.

What don't you understand about Eph 1:13 ?

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Now, can you show me a verse which shows that you are regenerated and then you believe..?

 

[ivdavid]

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You haven't explained anything further...you're just quoting the same verse to which I've already given my understanding - you haven't dealt with anything I've said - what discussion is possible here if we simply keep reiterating our understanding without showing WHY it must be the truth?

You assume that "sealed with the Holy Spirit" means that you're given the Holy Spirit only then. I simply understand it as being "sealed" - an act of declaring completion of the process of regeneration which began before you started believing. Now why this understanding and not the other - we must look elsewhere.

Now, can you show me a verse which shows that you are regenerated and then you believe..?

Are you asking me to proof-text? Understanding God is about taking His Word as a whole - without any contradictions.

But if you're asking me the reason WHY I believe this - then it lies in your answer to the questions in post#140. You had already answered this - does it still hold and in this context?

where does one's faith come from - from man himself or from God.

Faith comes from God.. without God nobody would have faith..

As you say, for faith to come from God, God must act sometime in me before I begin believing in Christ - that's why regeneration precedes faith.

Man in your step 4[believing in Christ] is still of the flesh - how can he believe when he is in the flesh - how can the natural man discern these spiritual truths in Christ without being given spiritual understanding by the Spirit. His mind is darkened and his heart is stubborn - how can he repent by himself, in the flesh? He needs to be given a new heart and have his spirit renewed for him to even begin to see his bankruptcy before God.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
This is regeneration - why must God do this - because all with this stony heart are not even seeking the true Living God - they do not understand nor do they fear this Living God - they are absolutely unprofitable. If God would not regenerate them, they can never be drawn to Christ.

Besides, there must be nothing that can be attributed to man's ability/wisdom/will so that no flesh may glory before God.

Now that I've given you the WHY I hold this belief, I will now support it from Scripture - this is not proof-texting. Besides, this already came up in #64 but was not discussed then -
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him,....

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
This giving[of faith] from the Father must precede one's believing in Christ.

Now, I ask you, why do you insist that Man must be in the flesh while he believes - give reasons for your stance and explain how my above concerns are solved by your explanation.

 

[Eventide]

As you say, for faith to come from God, God must act sometime in me before I begin believing in Christ

Of course... it's called the GOSPEL OF GOD concerning His Son.. that comes FIRST.. and it is LIVING and POWERFUL And EFFECTUAL.. or are you going to insist that the gospel has no power..?

THEN, when a man believes that gospel, God alone knows the heart, seals them with the SPIRIT and they are now in Christ..

I asked you to show me ONE VERSE which supports God regenerating first and you can't.. you just go on and on with many words which don't support anything.. because there is no support for the man centered doctrines of Calvinism.

Now, I ask you, why do you insist that Man must be in the flesh while he believes - give reasons for your stance and explain how my above concerns are solved by your explanation.

What difference does that make.. I'll show you biblical evidence and that will not even matter to a Calvinist.. I think that it's impossible for Calvinsts to be proven wrong.. look at SBG, been asking him a simple question for days now which he can't answer and yet he still goes on preaching the nonsense of Calvinism.

So here it is anyway... Rom 4.. concerning Abraham..

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now this is important..

How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe..

Here we are taught that circumcision is a SIGN... signs are important.. and what is it a sign of.. THE SEALING OF the righteousness by FAITH.. and that happened AFTER he believed God.. just like Eph 1:13 says...

NOW, are you going to show me a verse which teaches that regeneration comes first... I doubt it, because there are none.. but it's most likely just as impossible for a Calvinist to be wrong about what they believe..

Maybe I can ask you the same question which I asked SBG..

Are you exempt from taking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Christ...? And how does that make YOU the elect unconditionally ?

 

[ada]

Revelation 22:17 KJV
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.
And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[ada]

@eventide
You mean you are a calvinist more than a Christian or do i get you wrong?
Sorry english is not my language of birth.
As far as i know calvinist advocate the once saved always saved dogma,right?
How so when the bible tells us that its not only important how you start your
Christian life but how you finish it? There are many people who went astray and willingly gave their life to the adversary.

 

[Eventide]

@eventide
You mean you are a calvinist more than a Christian or do i get you wrong?

I'm not a Calvinist.. I wouldn't label myself by any man.. well, except the Lord Jesus Christ of course.. so I am a Christian, not a Calvinist..

Sorry english is not my language of birth.

That's ok.. glad you posted !

As far as i know calvinist advocate the once saved always saved dogma,right?
How so when the bible tells us that its not only important how you start your
Christian life but how you finish it? There are many people who went astray and willingly gave their life to the adversary.

Yeah, Calvinism has all sorts of problems.. that's what happens when men start listening to men rather than what's in the bible.

 

[ada]

Thanks

 

[ivdavid]

the GOSPEL OF GOD concerning His Son.... is LIVING and POWERFUL And EFFECTUAL..

True. I was not contesting this.

THEN, when a man believes that gospel

I was asking you the cause for this and I think you've simply misunderstood what I was getting at. So I'll try it another way -

There are 2 men - Mr.X and Mr.Y - both these men are preached the Gospel of Christ by say, an evangelist. Now after both of them hear the Gospel, Mr.X believes in Christ while Mr.Y does not believe in Christ.

My question is - what is the cause of Mr.X believing in Christ?
a) Is it because of Mr.X's hearing of the Gospel?
b) Is it because of Mr.X's own wisdom/goodness/will-power?
c) Is it because of the Spirit's working in Mr.X to enable him to believe?
d) Any other ... (please specify)

The above question is what I find is the fundamental differentiating factor in both our beliefs. We need to focus on this if we need to understand each others' belief framework.

I asked you to show me ONE VERSE which supports God regenerating first and you can't.. you just go on and on with many words which don't support anything

I did give that one verse -
Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
But you reject it outright because you've interpreted it differently and what I've understood of it really doesn't matter to you - that's fine. So, I'll ask you your perspective so that I can understand your beliefs more clearly -

What according to you in the above verse, "needs to be given to man" for him to believe in Christ?

So here it is anyway... Rom 4.. concerning Abraham..
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Why are you quoting this against your own stance? This is the very point that I'm making - that there is nothing to be found/gained/attained as pertaining to the flesh. Faith is a spiritual matter which the flesh cannot perform - which is why we need the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit in our 'inward man' to enable us to believe.

Maybe I can ask you the same question which I asked SBG..
Are you exempt from taking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Christ...? And how does that make YOU the elect unconditionally ?

And I've already told you I don't see the contextual connection between election and the command to deny ourselves.

Anyway, the answer is an obvious yes - we are to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Christ. This is commanded and exhorted by Christ - and anyone who does not do this, cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

But what's the inference in this that seems to go against my understanding? Are you assuming that this command is a necessary condition for us to perform in our own strength/will in order to merit salvation/the gift of the Holy Spirit?

How do you view God's commands? Do you see them as -
a) God revealing His will for us by showing us the way we must go in and after showing us this, He Himself works in us mightily by His Spirit to cause us to walk in His ways. There is no context of salvation/eternal life here at all. All this is of course, after regeneration.
OR
b) Necessary conditions that we must keep/follow in order to attain the blessing of eternal life and not remain under the curse of death.

 

[Eventide]

My question is - what is the cause of Mr.X believing in Christ?

What is the 'cause' for believing anything..? Don't you know..? Are you suggesting that men are incapable of examining the evidence of the gospel and then acting upon it ? Can they agree with God that they're sinners and that God's Son died for their sins..?

This is what Calvinists are taught.. that men are totally depraved and that they no longer can reason or make decisions with respect to the gospel.. it's nonsense.. Gen 3 shows us clearly that when man disobeyed God that he could still hear His voice when He called and that he could also understand it.. none of this matters to the Calvinist because they're brainwashed into believing that men can't believe that Christ died for their sins.. and yet that's exactly what the Holy Spirit was SENT into the WORLD to do.. to convict (or convince) of SIN, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and JUDGMENT..

AND HE is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. although again.. Calvinist's are led to believe that they got they special call from God.. a call which enabled them to believe, to repent, to trust in the fact that Christ died for their sins.. this is why Calvinist's constantly talk about themselves being the elect of God without ever mentioning CHRIST.

 

[ivdavid]

I take it from your reply that you'd go with option (b) as the cause for our faith -
b) It is because of Mr.X's own wisdom/goodness/will-power in the flesh.

And you must already be knowing that I go with option (c) -
c) It is because of the Spirit's working in Mr.X to enable him to believe.
[Reference of the Mr.X Analogy is in post#149]

What is the 'cause' for believing anything..?

We're not talking about 'anything' - there is a difference between worldly matters and spiritual matters. The natural man can know/understand/believe worldly matters but cannot discern spiritual truths.

Are you suggesting that men are incapable of examining the evidence of the gospel and then acting upon it ?

Precisely. Here are some points for you to evaluate -

Point 1:
According to you, the cause of Mr.X's faith was his own understanding/goodness in the flesh. But Scripture says -
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
Rom 3:11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
Is Mr.X the exception?


Point 2:
According to you, Mr.X had the Spirit work in him only after he believed. This means that the faith he had was of his own doing - caused by his own understanding/goodness etc. in the flesh. But Scripture says -
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

Point 3:
What does the law of works say?
Lev 18:5 And you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live in them. I am Jehovah.
It states that man will live/die because of what good/bad he does. The law of works was about what man couldn't do - but we are under grace - it's about what God can and does do. No longer is it dependent on the works of man but on the works of God. We all have seen that man in the flesh can never obey even a single commandment of God - that he can never do anything pleasing to God. [Rom 8:7-8]

Aren't you building up the law when you make 'faith' a work of man?

Point 4:
Mr.X believed and Mr.Y did not. Therefore, according to you, Mr.X had in some small way at least, more understanding/goodness/wisdom than Mr.Y and he had it in the flesh. This very existence of understanding/goodness/wisdom in the flesh is what is denied in Scriptures -
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
Nothing.
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Point 5:
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing.
We are dead in our sins[Eph 2:1] until the Spirit makes alive = regenerates. The flesh does nothing in this process.

Point 6:
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Man cannot have faith unless it[faith] is given to him from the Father. How have you interpreted this - what needs to be given to man for him to believe?

Continued in the next post.....

 

[ivdavid]

....continuing,

Can[t] they agree with God that they're sinners...?
that's exactly what the Holy Spirit was SENT into the WORLD to do.. to convict (or convince) of SIN,....

If the natural man himself can realize he is a sinner, what necessity is there for the Spirit to convict him? This is my point - that unless the Spirit convicts us of sin in us, during the process of regeneration - we will never realize that we are sinners.

To elaborate on the previous point, who is a "sinner"? It's not - "Do you know you're a sinner"? Any slight hesitation and it's followed up with - "Have you broken at least one commandment of God at least once"? Nobody can answer otherwise - "then you are a sinner"!

If this is how you define a sinner, then yes, anybody can agree with God that they're a sinner. But the correct question is not "have you done at least one act of evil?" - the question is "have you done at least one act of good?" That there is nothing good in you, in your ability/wisdom/will - in the flesh - that is who a sinner is[Rom 7:18]. Sin refers to both an act of rebellion as also the nature of rebellion[Rom 7]. Do you realize that you've rebelled against God and hated Him[Rom 5:8,10], all the time, until this point of realization/revelation? Have you lost faith in anything you can do and are instead clinging on to Christ alone as your only hope of being saved? Total dependence on God - zero on anything from your side.

There is this seeming paradox of faith - nobody can be saved without faith; but this does not make faith a necessary cause either - it is only a correlated factor, where God's grace/mercy is the common cause of both our faith and our salvation. [I can explain this using analogies to make it easier to comprehend, if required]

Can[t] they agree with God...that God's Son died for their sins? ...trust in the fact that Christ died for their sins..?

Any natural man can believe in the fact that Christ died for their sins. But what the natural man cannot believe is that because of Christ's death on the cross alone, we are given the gift of eternal life. The natural man has to try and supplement Christ's work on the cross with his own dead works in the flesh.

Christ's death on the cross is not some instrumental, contributory cause of our salvation - it is both the necessary AND sufficient cause of our salvation. This is what the natural man in the flesh has trouble believing. He still believes his flesh profits something. How can one claim to believe in Christ alone for his salvation when he also believes partly in himself for his salvation?


Contd...

 

[ivdavid]

...continuing,

Gen 3 shows us clearly that when man disobeyed God that he could still hear His voice when He called and that he could also understand it.

How is this proving wrong what I said? I am arguing that man by himself cannot do anything unless God acts in him. When God speaks - man will hear and will understand. That's why it's irresistible. When God opens hearts - man will hear and understand what's said - that's irresistible [Acts 16:14] . When God begins His work, there is nothing that can stop/thwart Him.

This is why salvation is not dependent on the hearer's choice nor on the evangelist who preaches but purely based on the mercy of God - He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy ; He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. [Rom 9:15-16]

This is what Calvinists are taught..

What purpose does this statement serve in our present discussion? Are you giving me some factual general knowledge - are you making a point? Are you venting and being spiteful?

"Taught" by whom - other calvinists? I told you earlier, I didn't know what the term 'calvinism' meant until very recently. When I did know, it was only a group of beliefs that I already held, not what I started believing in after that. I didn't even know what denomination my church belonged to - I recently found out that it was a Wesleyan church. So why do you keep on railing about "taught of man...taught of man" when all I've understood is of God's working in my life and His Word. Go ahead and point out something wrong in my interpretation from Scripture - and by God's grace, I will be corrected. But don't justify your rejection of what I'm saying by claiming this is from some man in the reformation era.

I have given you some points to evaluate - each containing my understanding from Scripture along with the Scriptural references. You need not reply here - but if you can reconcile all these issues within your belief framework, then fine. But if not, why are you forcing everything to conform to your own present understanding [Pro 3:5].

And what have I said so wrong - I have never spoken of election as something that I'm proud of in myself or something I deserve. It's meant to be an explanation of God's sovereignty - exalting Him while depriving man of any self-glory. I insist on wholesome dependence on Christ against making man in the flesh share in His glory. I desire only the Son to be glorified - and man to be utterly stripped of any room for boasting.

I speak of God's abundant love for us who are being saved, in that He sent His Son to die for us even when we are hateful of Him - even when we reject Him - even then, He has such love for us, that He comes after us even while we are not seeking for Him. What of this deprives God of His glory - which part of this has exalted man? Why do you take such offense to this - if it's owing to some worldly wisdom being contradicted, would you not rather treat that as loss for Christ?

 

[Eventide]

...continuing,How is this proving wrong what I said? I am arguing that man by himself cannot do anything unless God acts in him.

And who is arguing otherwise ?

The GOSPEL comes first.. where does that come from..? God or man..?

The Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment..

There are TWO distinct elements coming from God.. the gospel and the Spirit's conviction.. so how in the world do you come up with the false basis that man is doing this on his own ?

Again, Calvinists are taught the nonsense that men cannot understand this simple biblical fact that God's Son died for their sins.. although once again, Gen 3 completely refutes this nonsense.. Adam HEARD the voice of God and Adam understood what God was saying to him when He spoke..

How do you account for that if Adam was totally depraved after the fall..? Are you going to say that God regenerated him first when thaqt's nowhere to be found in the scriptures..?

How about the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was preaching was so.. are you going to tell me that God regenerated all these Bereans so that they could check this out for themselves.. ?

See how ridiculous Calvinism gets.. and why.. so that you can be some special 'elect' group ?

You're not the elect, I am not the elect.. the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect.. and any man that comes after Him must take up his cross (instrument of death to self) , DENY HIMSELF, and follow Christ.. it's obvious who is the elect there except for those who have bought into the lie that God is choosing them unconditionally.

 

[Eventide]

unconditional ?

Let's take it one step at a time..

How can election be unconditional when every single person chosen is chosen IN CHRIST ?

Is that or is it not a condition for God choosing them ?

 

[ivdavid]

I am arguing that man by himself cannot do anything unless God acts in him.

And who is arguing otherwise ?

I thought both of us were on the same page on this - apparently not. Let me rephrase with emphasis - "Man cannot do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g or any part of anything that is spirtually good, by himself, unless God acts in him to do so. All man can do by himself ie all his works in the flesh are evil and sinful and against God.

There are TWO distinct elements coming from God.. the gospel and the Spirit's conviction.. so how in the world do you come up with the false basis that man is doing this on his own ?

You've again misunderstood me - let's get back to the analogy -
Mr.X and Mr.Y hear the Gospel. Mr.X believes and Mr.Y does not. Now, remove all factors,causes,parameters that are common to both Mr.X and Mr.Y. So for instance, the Gospel which was preached, is a necessary correlated factor in man's salvation but since it's common to both Mr.X and Mr.Y, it cannot be the differentiating cause in their responses.

So you see, I'm not referring to perhaps the 99.9% common factors that play a role in man's salvation - I'm very specifically referring to that 0.1% differentiating cause. So my statement in the quote above was not referring to the entire 100% salvation-factors and the flesh's contribution in that - I'm referring to this very narrow differential cause and saying that this differential cause is not the flesh's works. Do I need to word it differently for you to understand more clearly?

So the question is - What is that differentiating cause that resulted in Mr.X believing? Man's own ability/wisdom/goodness/understanding in the flesh or God's grace in the Spirit's working in Mr.X? With respect to this, re-read my previous posts and reconcile the issues raised.

 

[ivdavid]

are you going to tell me that God regenerated all these Bereans so that they could check this out for themselves.. ?

Regeneration surely takes place in the verse after the above for them to believe - here, this was God's grace working in them to do so - yes. What is so ridiculous about that? What do you think "walking in the Spirit" means?

Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Always read the above with James 1:13,17

and why.. so that you can be some special 'elect' group ?

Try to define every word involved in a dispute - it helps. Language can be tricky and I've seen the devil use it most, to his own ends. Anyway, 'special' in this context means something having greater inherent value than some other thing. So, you accuse calvinists of trying to claim that they have greater inherent value when they say they are part of God's elect. You've got to back that statement. No truly professing calvinist would say that.

The problem lies not with what they say - but with your assumptions. You assume that if God chose them without their doing/working anything, then it must imply that they have some greater inherent value. That's faulty logic. God is not partial - He is not a respecter of persons. He is sovereign.

Sovereignty is completely different from partiality. Both involve selection or choice - but partiality needs a reason from the object to choose it but sovereignty is based totally only on the subject's will. So if God chooses Mr.X because of something inherent in Mr.X, then God is being partial and hence unjust. But if God chooses Mr.X based on nothing inherent in him but based purely and solely on His own will and pleasure, then He's being sovereign and hence not unjust.

You see unconditional election right through the Bible.
God chose/elected Israel as His own nation and people - unconditionally.
God chose/elected Isaac as the child of promise before he was born - unconditionally.
God chose/elected Jacob to be served by the elder before he was born - unconditionally.
On what basis were these people chosen - nothing inherent in them. Purely God's sovereign will.

So, when there is nothing of value inherent in these calvinists, how can you accuse them of claiming to be special - the difference is not in us, it's in God's sovereignty - the Potter and His clay.

How can election be unconditional when every single person chosen is chosen IN CHRIST ?

In your list in post #135, you're referring to election in step 7. I'm referring to election in step 4 of my list. We're not referring the same thing - we can't discuss apples and oranges.

 

[Eventide]

I thought both of us were on the same page on this - apparently not. Let me rephrase with emphasis - "Man cannot do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g or any part of anything that is spirtually good, by himself, unless God acts in him to do so. All man can do by himself ie all his works in the flesh are evil and sinful and against God.


You've again misunderstood me - let's get back to the analogy -
Mr.X and Mr.Y hear the Gospel. Mr.X believes and Mr.Y does not. Now, remove all factors,causes,parameters that are common to both Mr.X and Mr.Y. So for instance, the Gospel which was preached, is a necessary correlated factor in man's salvation but since it's common to both Mr.X and Mr.Y, it cannot be the differentiating cause in their responses.

So you see, I'm not referring to perhaps the 99.9% common factors that play a role in man's salvation - I'm very specifically referring to that 0.1% differentiating cause. So my statement in the quote above was not referring to the entire 100% salvation-factors and the flesh's contribution in that - I'm referring to this very narrow differential cause and saying that this differential cause is not the flesh's works. Do I need to word it differently for you to understand more clearly?

So the question is - What is that differentiating cause that resulted in Mr.X believing? Man's own ability/wisdom/goodness/understanding in the flesh or God's grace in the Spirit's working in Mr.X? With respect to this, re-read my previous posts and reconcile the issues raised.

Commentary from men like you and me is great for sharing ideas although it's not what a Christian should base their belief upon.. obviously the word of God is what matters.

So let's look at a portion of the word of God from the beginning of the OT and the NT..

In the garden, after Adam fell in disobedience.. Could he hear the voice of God ? Could Adam understand what God was saying to him ?

OK, the answer to these two questions is clearly YES.

In the Gospel of John.. it is written that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. so there's another fact.. and while I would never say that I understand all that it could entail I do take it at its face value.. that Christ is the true light which lights every man that comes into the world..

NOW, we already KNOW for a fact that Adam could hear the voice of God and that he could understand it.. and we also know that this is SPIRITUAL in nature.. because the true light of God IS Spiritual.. even His words are Spirit and they are life.. the gospel itself is Spiritual in nature and once again.. we KNOW for a fact that His voice can be heard and it can be understood..

For example..

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..

That's spiritual in nature.. and it is easily understood.. even with the carnal mind.. that doesn't mandate that it is accepted as true.. there are many people on earth who understand the basic fundamental aspects of the Christian faith and who are not in Christ.. The author Mark Twain once said.. "It's not what I don't understand in the Bible that bothers me, it's what I do understand.. that bothers me." There's nothing totally depraved about that comment.. and if anything, I would say that it is a result of CONVICTION.. exactly what the Spirit of God does in the WORLD today..

So imo.. this completely detroys the entire first premise of the Calvinist.. that men are totally depraved and can't understand the basic truth of the gospel.. and everything a Calvinist believes is based upon these false premises..

 

[Eventide]

You see unconditional election right through the Bible.
God chose/elected Israel as His own nation and people - unconditionally.
God chose/elected Isaac as the child of promise before he was born - unconditionally.
God chose/elected Jacob to be served by the elder before he was born - unconditionally.
On what basis were these people chosen - nothing inherent in them. Purely God's sovereign will.

Here you're confounding NATIONAL election (Israel to be the head of the Nations), and by WHOM the promised son (which Isaac is a type) would come from.. with Election into the BODY OF CHRIST..

Two completely different things.. and we already know that National election (being an Israelite) is not the BASIS of God's election.. because it is by FAITH.. there's a difference between being an Israelite and being a part of the Israel of God. So it IS conditional.. upon FAITH.. just like it is in the NT.

It's also a little ironic that most Calvinist's are amillennial and reject the future restoration of the nation of Israel.. and even base their false doctrine of election largely upon Romans 9 which is NATIONAL in its context.. Christians are not to be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to that nation and yet again.. most are amillennial and do just that. It's no wonder why most seem to be wise in their own conceits.. ie, how they're the elect etc etc etc..