The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT...

[savedbygrace57]

Christ as God's Elect !

The Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of all that were chosen in Him, necessitates that they all be One. Christ election was in actuality their election, so much so, they were also Christ !

Now I know many will think I am crazy with this statement, but it can be substantiated with scripture, which I will prove.

First, we believe that Eve and all the natural family were created in and known only as Adam : Gen 5:

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

They [ eve and the natural offspring] received the Law in Him[Adam] and Transgressed in Him, and became the subjects of condemnation in Him, that is to say, such as He was after the Transgression, such are they in a state of unregeneracy.

Now Adam was a Type and figure of Him that was to come rom 5:

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now the bible gives force to these figures used in scripture on this subject, if the bride, and all the sons and daughters of the Lord God Almighty, where not created in and known only as Christ,[Mystically], received the Gospel, and all their spiritual blessings in Him.

eph 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him[Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Hence the Apostle writes "Ye are all one in Christ Jesus" see gal 3:28

And again, it seems that paul Identifies all the members of Christ, as Christ Himself 1 cor 12:

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

And who can forget these words of the risen Christ, as Saul was persecuting the members of the Church acts 9:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

This speaks to that mystical union Christ has with all His Members, the oneness.

Now I hope the Truth is being realized, that Just as Adam was Created with His Bride and posterity in Him, to be called Adam, so likewise, Christ as the Head of the Church, was begotten before all worlds, with His bride and spiritual posterity in Him, to be called Christ..We shall see more of this in this study !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ as God's Elect ! cont

Now I hope the Truth is being realized, that Just as Adam was Created with His Bride and posterity in Him, to be called Adam, so likewise, Christ as the Head of the Church, was begotten before all worlds, with His bride and spiritual posterity in Him, to be called Christ..We shall see more of this in this study !

Now, Adam, the First, He conveys death, condemnation, and depravity to All His Natural seed, who descended from Him by ordinary natural generation, in consequence of Union, a solidarity with Adam !

Likewise, the Second Adam conveys all spiritual blessings [eph 1:3-4] to His Spiritual seed, in consequence of their Union and solidarity [before the world began]. Christ spiritual family, are born again, as a lawful consequence of previous existence in and in Union to Him, as the branches to the vine, created in Christ Jesus, Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Also having Grace given to them in Christ Jesus, before the world began 2 tim 1:9. Preserved in Christ and called Jude 1:

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Notice how they were preserved in Christ before being called !!

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ as God's Elect ! cont

Christ spiritual family, are born again, as a lawful consequence of previous existence in and in Union to Him, as the branches to the vine, created in Christ Jesus, Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

So now you're saying that YOU had a previous existence in Christ..?

It amazes me to what end people will exalt themselves... in this case it's saying that you're just like Christ, existing before the world began..

AND then look at the logical problems with that.. if that were true then why would you be created in Adam and be under condemnation.. if you were ALREADY IN CHRIST..?

 

[xounstaer]

i just wanted to rate.

i have nothing to discuss about this here basicly, or say besides is jeus the only elect.
but that's allready spoken of in " two witnesses"

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

So now you're saying that YOU had a previous existence in Christ..?

Yes, Just as I had one in Adam..Not only Me, but all the Chosen in Christ had a previous existence in Christ, not a literal existence, but a Representative existence, as in Adam..

The same as Levi had a represenative existence in the loins of Abraham Heb 7:

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father[Great Grand Father], when Melchisedec met him.

Thats the principle of being in Christ before the foundation..

 

[Eventide]

even:

Yes, Just as I had one in Adam..Not only Me, but all the Chosen in Christ had a previous existence in Christ, not a literal existence, but a Representative existence, as in Adam..

The same as Levi had a represenative existence in the loins of Abraham Heb 7:

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father[Great Grand Father], when Melchisedec met him.

Thats the principle of being in Christ before the foundation..

Never heard this before.. that we had a representative 'existence' in Christ.. The scriptures say that God created all nations from one blood.. not that any of us had a pre-existence.. and we are all in the loins of that first Adam.. not in the loins of Christ.

This is literally exalting YOURSELF to God in a way, because HE is the eternally existing one.. not us.. we were all created in Adam and all in that representative head are under condemnation.. and all in Christ may be justified freely.

 

[nibCim]

This is a chicken and egg discussion. Yes Christ is the Way and few are they that find Him... that few quite simply, are the elect! We may add "In Christ" to the end of "elect"... but it's inferred whether we say it or not.

So the question were really asking here is did we choose God or did he choose us?

Some people have a hard time reconciling the concept of God is Love with a God that might have chosen to save some people and not to save others.

First what does it mean to be saved and what are we saved from?

Are we saved from eternity without God as many will declare? Are we saved from the devil? saved from Hell?

Because I want to be brief I will be plain we are saved from Gods Wrath... the Just punishment for our sins, Wrath the wages of the deed done in our flesh.

First realize that all men have sinned and deserve God's Wrath... the reason Gods Wrath is eternal is because we could never repay the debt we owe. We who are dust assaulted his thrown and He is under no obligation to pay our debt for us. What can dust who's breath is only borrowed... do to repay God. If God should choose for all men to suffer his wrath for eternity we would still be cheating God because we would never repay our debt. It would be our Just reward but God would not receive Justice.

And to be saved means that our punishment has been paid, God the plaintiff has been repaid on our behalf, justice has been satisfied, and we the defendants have been justified.

How are we saved?

The answer is by grace... right? while we were sinners Christ because of his great love for us had grace upon us, died for our sins so that we would live forever in heaven with him... That's how it's taught... but is that how it is? The verse used to substantiate this view is:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ​

Sounds simple enough, Christ died for all the sinners so they are justified! We have to read it in context... consider the first 5 verses of that chapter.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. ​

We are justified by faith.... in Heb 11:4 Abel was justified by faith, and Rom 5:2 tells us that faith grants us access to the grace found in Rom 5:8

So how do we get faith?

Faith is a gift from God like all other good things (James 1:17) so if we have faith, God choose to give it to us. (Just as he choose vessels of honor and vessels of wrath before the foundations of the earth.)

Some will try to over simplify by quoting the following verse:

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
​

This is true but all can't hear the Word of God... only his sheep hear his voice. regardless of how intently others may focus.

Mar 4:9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
​

To recap in order to be saved I have to have faith, and in order to have faith I have to hear God, so where does "an ear to hear" God come from? Man's wisdom...or is it a good or perfect thing thus by extension a gift from God? (James 1:17 again)

Jesus spoke to the Pharisees who were the most educated men in Israel... and he said to them:

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
​

What Jesus is saying here is essentially "Why do you think you are not able to understand what I'm talking about? The reason is because you do not have the ability to hear anything from God!" Or simpler "you don't have ears to hear..."

Conversely the Apostles by and large were tradesmen, and uneducated in the scholarly sense.

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.
​

Mar 4:11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

​

Hearing God's voice comes from God, Faith comes from God, Salvation Comes from God.

As was stated earlier in this thread we were dead in trespasses (Eph 2:1) that was all men, dead men cannot choose God. Only God can make dry bones live and take the heart of stone out and give dead men a heart of flesh.

Eze 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Eze 36:31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.
​

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
​

My old nature, the dead man, the heart of stone... won't choose God... not in a million years.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

2Pe 2:22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
​

The verses above point to the creatures nature, more than pointing to it... Peter affirms his agreement with Solomon that all creation is bound to it's own nature. Imagine that you could change the heart of a wallowing pig... what would happen if you put the heart of a man in a pig that was covered in dung. What would that 'new pig' do?

He would consider his evil ways and his deeds that were not good; and he would hate his own old nature, because of the iniquities and abominations that his wicked heart loved!

Eze 36:31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations

Where before he had no knowledge of sin, the 'new pig' now hates sin. Because in this case you gave the pig a new heart and made him a new creature! This is what God does for us who he has truly elected.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
​

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
Joh 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
Joh 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
​

Debt paid and a new nature because God choose to show mercy to me, not all, but me...

Some may say that I am wrong, If I am then Paul is wrong too. The entire point of Romans 9 is to explain that God has elected some and not others.

If we remember nothing else we should know God owes man nothing! If all men were to suffer wrath for eternity God would be just as holy, righteous, and worthy of our worship. That He should save anyone is incomprehensible.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

Never heard this before..

I am not surprised, but you have now and you are accountable for it, and its been substantiated by scripture, whether you believe it or not..

 

[Eventide]

even:



I am not surprised, but you have now and you are accountable for it, and its been substantiated by scripture, whether you believe it or not..

LOL... the high and lofty Calvinists never cease to amaze me..

 

[Eventide]

Yes Christ is the Way and few are they that find Him... that few quite simply, are the elect! We may add "In Christ" to the end of "elect"... but it's inferred whether we say it or not.

What makes you believe that YOU are the elect when the bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's elect..? Do you think that you're like the Lord Jesus Christ ?

What makes you believe that YOU are the elect when the Lord Jesus Christ says that if YOU shall seek to SAVE YOUR LIFE that you shall lose it.. ?

 

[Prince]

LOL, I can't believe this topic is still going.

Well anyway, according to some and their theology, God elected Himself!

It's either that or those expounding this idea that Jesus is the Elect, do not believe He was God incarnate. :shocked!

Hey :

Well the problem is Eventide is saying you become elect when you believe in Christ....But the bible tells us that God choose elect before they were born - So the truth of the matter is God has chosen some souls to do His work before he even put that soul in a body

for example

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It's either that or those expounding this idea that Jesus is the Elect, do not believe He was God incarnate

The bible makes it very clear that Jesus is God...

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Notice Jesus is being called the Father

 

[Prince]

There's no doubt in my mind that you and I are NOT the elect.. and of course you can think what you want as well.. like when the LORD says that IF YOU shall seek to SAVE YOUR LIFE that YOU SHALL LOSE IT... that sounds like He's choosing YOU right..? LOL..



If it sounds like a duck it probably is a duck...



OK.. let me stop you here and ask..

Does this verse teach that YOU were IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world..? For some reason many people place the emphasis on the US part of this verse, rather than on the IN HIM part..

Now do a little bit of thinking here.. Did you even EXIST before the foundation of the world.. ? NO of course not.. but of course the Lord Jesus Christ did and He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.. so OF COURSE God is going to choose ALL that trust in HIM.. and HE ALONE made that choice before the foundation of the world.. before ANYONE existed..

NOW Eph 2 tells us plainly that we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins before we trusted in Christ.. so do the simple math.. you were NOT in Christ before the foundation of the world.. even though this verse makes you believe that.. and I think it's because you're placing the emphasis on YOU rather than on IN HIM..



That's right, all who love God have been predestinated to the ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ.. and according to Romans 8 we're WAITING for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our bodies..



Here's the Calvinist's only verse in the bible which they use to try and support UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.. although as the Romans 9 study thread has shown, this has nothing to do with electing these people to salvation, but rather that the ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER..



Well, you're welcome to keep your own opinion and continue to believe that GOD chose YOU while disreagarding the mountains of scripture which refute that..



That's right.. the ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.. was decided by GOD before they were even born..

Did you even EXIST before the foundation of the world.. ? NO

Yes I did, and I see now that the disagreement is not about elects at all, its about you assuming that souls were not created long ago (which they were)....

 

[Eventide]

Yes I did, and I see now that the disagreement is not about elects at all, its about you assuming that souls were not created long ago (which they were)....

Oh so you existed BEFORE you were born naturally through your parents.. lol.. amazing how people can exalt themselves..

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

Oh so you existed BEFORE you were born naturally through your parents.. lol..

lol, did levi exist [In God's esimation] before he was born naturally through his parents ?

heb 7:


9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

 

[Prince]

Oh so you existed BEFORE you were born naturally through your parents.. lol.. amazing how people can exalt themselves..

This is like the second or third time you have thru in one of these rude pre-judged responses.

I am not exalting myself, all im saying is my soul is older then my body.

And I can prove my words unlike you, who seem to have a tendency to speak from your own accord..... Anyhow lets review

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God makes it clear that He knew Jeremiah long before Jeremiah was born,, why???

Because the soul of Jeremiah was made long ago, and was in heaven until God decided Jeremiah needed to be born to help fulfill Gods purpose...

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

Understand, everybody living on this earth was in heaven before they were born - we start in heaven we come down to the earth and we live die and go back to heaven even Jesus did this.

You seem to speak to me as if your a teacher and I lack some kind of knowledge that prevents me from understanding your words,,,NAY

Your words are not founded off scripture....

 

[Prince]

even:



lol, did levi exist [In God's esimation] before he was born naturally through his parents ?

heb 7:


9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Thats a good point kinda like Gods feeling towards Esau before he was born.

 

[reba]

What makes you believe that YOU are the elect when the Lord Jesus Christ says that if YOU shall seek to SAVE YOUR LIFE that you shall lose it.. ?

This is a good part of why i believe HE chooses 'us' to salvation. I can not save my life only He can. How does man say he is "in Christ" with out seeking to save his own life?

Christ, chose, elected, sanctified, paid the price, shed His Blood, He did this when?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Eph 1:4 tells us who did what and when

 

[Prince]

This is a good part of why i believe HE chooses 'us' to salvation. I can not save my life only He can. How does man say he is "in Christ" with out seeking to save his own life?

Christ, chose, elected, sanctified, paid the price, shed His Blood, He did this when?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Eph 1:4 tells us who did what and when

Its more then clear that God choose people for His awesome purpose before they were born.

 

[Eventide]

even:



lol, did levi exist [In God's esimation] before he was born naturally through his parents ?

heb 7:


9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

No he didn't exist before he was born.. did you ?

 

[Prince]

No he didn't exist before he was born.. did you ?

Did Jeremiah

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Yes he did...