The Meaning Of Justified

[Jethro Bodine]

Exactly 'none' of us believe Perfectly in any case of definitions.

You either believe your sins are covered by the blood of Christ, or you don't. There is no salvation somewhere in between.

And the notion you have that once calling upon Him is insufficient is merely an insufficiency of your own making.

Show me where it says I can stop calling on the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins and stop depending on the blood of Christ, and still be saved.

That's actually pretty funny, you placing limits on Gods Grace.

God does not go outside the condition of his own grace to rescue people outside of his grace. The grace of God is that he brings them to faith and repentance, not that he sets the condition of faith and repentance aside for that person.

...I don't adhere to the notion that God in Christ is only valid and effective 'if I continually think He Is.'

s

We know. You've made it clear that you don't think people have to have faith in Christ to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What it DOES say is that person needs to prove their salvation by what they do and then take comfort in that.

Please give me scripture that we should take comfort in our works.

5 ...make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
(2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV)



"...we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."
(1 John 3: NIV)

 

[smaller]

You either believe your sins are covered by the blood of Christ, or you don't. There is no salvation somewhere in between.

I would consider that a simplistic notion on your part.

There is no question to me that Paul had evil present with him and a DEVIL in his flesh by his own statements.

Paul, forgiven for certain. The devil in Paul's flesh? The evil present with Paul? Not a chance.

There is more going on with 'sin' than just us as individuals. Sin is factually of the devil.

Show me where it says I can stop calling on the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins and stop depending on the blood of Christ, and still be saved.

The notion that one must continually call upon the Lord is a non-existing presentation. Where in the world do you come up with that one? Were that actually in the text people would never stop to do anything else if they wanted to be saved.

I'm kinda glad some of that kind of nonsense ISN'T in the text. Talk about zombie making potential.

God does not go outside the condition of his own grace to rescue people outside of his grace.

As if you define what the 'condition of Gods grace is and consists of?'

Uh, no.

The grace of God is that he brings them to faith and repentance, not that he sets the condition of faith and repentance aside for that person.

We often toss around those kinds of terms and really Jethro, they mean different things to different people.

What I consider 'faith,' which is from the TEXT I guarantee you would not accept.

And a similar statement would apply to our understandings of 'repentance.'

Some 'believers' think they or their group are thee only definers of such matters.

...I don't adhere to the notion that God in Christ is only valid and effective 'if I continually think He Is.'

s

We know. You've made it clear that you don't think people have to have faith in Christ to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

Uh, no. I just do not accept your terms of 'who' God really Is as thee only version available.

God is LOVE. Those who love know God and have been born of God. I know that is probably a little lose for you, but that IS scripture. 1 John 4:7.

Paul also equates faith directly to Love.

Believers who try to make a divide between Jesus and Love are wasting their time.

s

 

[smaller]

I chalk up such 'failings' to believers falling to the wiles of the god of this world, SATAN. I don't believe that automatically sends them to hell by any means or that Jesus abandons them or will not make Good on His Promises.

Or it's a choice. After all, if someone is helping us, it's our choice to receive it or not. No, I wouldn't say they would be lost forever, but some could be lost forever.

I wouldn't consider being blinded by the god of this world to be any kind of a choice.

God certainly allows some believers to be overcome by our enemies temporarily in many ways.

This by no means equates to God in Christ ever leaving any believer.

Do believers fall in this present life? Yep. All the time. Just because they have some doctrinal set up stuck on their lips is no guarantee of any sorts. Believers all sin regardless of their conditions of belief.

What this particular topic really comes down to is whether or not God in Christ abandons believers for sin, even the sin of unbelief.

I don't buy that story of abandonment by God in Christ. It flies in the face of too many scriptures to the contrary.

s

 

[reba]

I wouldn't consider being blinded by the god of this world to be any kind of a choice.

I was not blinded as was Paul? In other words we are not all Pauls....

Here I am walking the picket fence again...

 

[smaller]

I wouldn't consider being blinded by the god of this world to be any kind of a choice.

I was not blinded as was Paul? In other words we are not all Pauls....

Here I am walking the picket fence again...

One thing was absolutely certain with Paul.

He TRUTHFULLY said he saw only in part.

Go find any denomination that can still say that. Orthodoxy left that territory centuries ago.

too bad for them. that's why they are the ones pushing that believers can be lost. they are actually seeking to destroy believers just as Paul foretold here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Anyone looking to destroy believers is by definition, A WOLF.

s

 

[JLB]

I wouldn't consider being blinded by the god of this world to be any kind of a choice.

I was not blinded as was Paul? In other words we are not all Pauls....

Here I am walking the picket fence again...

One thing was absolutely certain with Paul.

He TRUTHFULLY said he saw only in part.

Go find any denomination that can still say that. Orthodoxy left that territory centuries ago.

too bad for them. that's why they are the ones pushing that believers can be lost. they are actually seeking to destroy believers just as Paul foretold here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Anyone looking to destroy believers is by definition, A WOLF.

s

Yet, anyone who tells them the truth, has become their enemy?

You can't have it both ways.

JLB

 

[smaller]

I wouldn't consider being blinded by the god of this world to be any kind of a choice.

I was not blinded as was Paul? In other words we are not all Pauls....

Here I am walking the picket fence again...

One thing was absolutely certain with Paul.

He TRUTHFULLY said he saw only in part.

Go find any denomination that can still say that. Orthodoxy left that territory centuries ago.

too bad for them. that's why they are the ones pushing that believers can be lost. they are actually seeking to destroy believers just as Paul foretold here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Anyone looking to destroy believers is by definition, A WOLF.

s

Yet, anyone who tells them the truth, has become their enemy?

You can't have it both ways.

JLB

What truth might that be? That God in Christ abandons them and will destroy them?

What some call 'truth' is non-existing.
s

 

[dadof10]

This has nothing to do with judgement, but simply recognizing what a person HAS. If he was saying that we are to look at ourselves, why did he say "I...will show YOU my faith"? Obviously we can show what kind of faith we have, right?

I cannot explain it any clearer to you how I interpret this scripture.

This is a hypothetical conversation used to teach what saving faith looks like. That is all. A cup of water to a thirsty man, etc.

This is what James is reacting to, a heresy within the Church. The point is, he thinks it's possible to "show" people the kind of faith we have. This is what the words actually say.

I apologize, first I agreed then I disagreed because I read something into your post that you did not say.
Yes we can show faith to others, that others can see. Are we required to tell people are "good works" I don't see that anywhere.

No. I don't see that anywhere either. People will see whether we are giving lip-service to our "faith" or not in what we do. Our actions will "show", even prove, that we are saved and once we show this saving faith, "he was never saved to begin with" is an illogical reaction to apostasy.

 

[JLB]

One thing was absolutely certain with Paul.

He TRUTHFULLY said he saw only in part.

Go find any denomination that can still say that. Orthodoxy left that territory centuries ago.

too bad for them. that's why they are the ones pushing that believers can be lost. they are actually seeking to destroy believers just as Paul foretold here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Anyone looking to destroy believers is by definition, A WOLF.

s

Yet, anyone who tells them the truth, has become their enemy?

You can't have it both ways.

JLB

What truth might that be? That God in Christ abandons them and will destroy them?

What some call 'truth' is non-existing.
s

The truth is God loves us.

The truth is Jesus dies for us.

The truth is you must repent, believe and be Baptized.

The truth is our faith must be tested by fire.

The truth is the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, not the beginning.

... receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-9

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free!

THE END OF YOUR FAITH IS THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL!

See Matthew 13 the parable of the Sower and the seed. 3 of the 4 received the word with joy, TEMPORARILY!



JLB

 

[dadof10]

If a person is justified by faith alone, and our "works" don't matter at all, even to "show" our justification is real, what's the sense in living our lives in any particularly holy way?

So are you praying for these two people that have some how misinterpreted "grace". I don't see this as a faith alone problem, I see this as a GRACE issue.

OK. Let's see where this leads. A person is saved, "shows" he is saved by his actions then apostacizes. Your contention is that his "salvation" and his "actions" were misinterpreted by him and everyone else, that he "really wasn't saved in the first place"? If I have your view wrong, please tell me.

Suppose this person repents and returns to his "saved" state and "shows" his faith again. How can he or anyone else tell whether THIS time he has "true faith" as opposed to the "false faith" he had last time, yet didn't know it? If God's Grace wasn't REALLY God's Grace the first time, how is ANYONE to tell the second?

James PLAINLY says we can show our "true faith", and you agree. I don't think this "misunderstanding Grace" view gets you any closer to reconciling James' view and "never saved in the first place".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wouldn't consider being blinded by the god of this world to be any kind of a choice.

I was not blinded as was Paul? In other words we are not all Pauls....

Here I am walking the picket fence again...

One thing was absolutely certain with Paul.

He TRUTHFULLY said he saw only in part.

Go find any denomination that can still say that. Orthodoxy left that territory centuries ago.

too bad for them. that's why they are the ones pushing that believers can be lost. they are actually seeking to destroy believers just as Paul foretold here:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Anyone looking to destroy believers is by definition, A WOLF.

s

Yet, anyone who tells them the truth, has become their enemy?

You can't have it both ways.

JLB

That's what I was thinking when I read his post: Paul is one of the wolves.

 

[dadof10]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

We see and hear of it happening all the time, but I have personally known a few who have been "saved" in every sense of the word, and have apostocized. One became an Atheist, and two became, what I like to call Apathetists. They both thought they were saved anyway...

I did speak to the woman that I knew who fell away later on, and she did think she was still cool with God. But if she knew the scriptures she'd know that she was not. But OSAS makes it so we don't have to consider those scriptures anyway.

I told her flat out that she was deceived (quoting a scripture I think) and left it at that.

That's all you can do as a mere mortal, then leave the rest to Jesus. That she still thought she was cool with God is the reason OSAS is such a horrible doctrine. Satan's primary deception, his main tactic, if you will, is to fool us into thinking he isn't real. OSAS has the same feel. If he can get people to believe they are saved by a one time declaration and then will always be "cool with God", he has won.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What this particular topic really comes down to is whether or not God in Christ abandons believers for sin, even the sin of unbelief.

Fair question. And one I've been asking in all these discussions where OSAS rears it's (ugly?) head.

If Christ does not allow believers to be abandoned to the sin of unbelief, why all the warnings to believers to be on the guard against unbelief? How do you answer that, smaller?

You seem to be contradicting yourself now, because you've been saying unbelief will not condemn the one who once believed. So, which is it? God abandons believers to unbelief, or, God still accepts them when they are abandoned to unbelief? Clarify what you believe.

 

[smaller]

What this particular topic really comes down to is whether or not God in Christ abandons believers for sin, even the sin of unbelief.

Fair question. And one I've been asking in all these discussions where OSAS rears it's (ugly?) head.

If Christ does not allow believers to be abandoned to the sin of unbelief, why all the warnings to believers to be on the guard against unbelief? How do you answer that, smaller?

It is not an unusual matter to 'fall' in this present life. Many are overcome by SATAN.

That 'overcoming' is an internal matter, but it is NOT a permanent matter.

We do have A Savior.

You seem to be contradicting yourself now, because you've been saying unbelief will not condemn the one who once believed.

Have stated prior on this matter that falling in this present life by no means equates to being abandoned by God in Christ anymore than Christ abandoning a believer for sin, period.

That doesn't happen.

So, which is it? God abandons believers to unbelief, or, God still accepts them when they are abandoned to unbelief? Clarify what you believe.

There is no which to be had.

IF Christ abandons any believer for 'sin' then singling out the sin of unbelief as opposed to any other sin means ALL believers would be abandoned because the same 'all' sin.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is not an unusual matter to 'fall' in this present life. Many are overcome by SATAN.

That 'overcoming' is an internal matter, but it is NOT a permanent matter.

But Hebrews speaks of a time when it IS a permanent matter when the person who repented falls away and can NOT come back to repentance.

Have stated prior on this matter that falling in this present life by no means equates to being abandoned by God in Christ anymore than Christ abandoning a believer for sin, period.

That doesn't happen.

But the Bible talks about it happening! God will in fact turn the Christ rejector over to that which they wish to believe is not true about God, Christ, and salvation. The Hebrew church proving to us that this applies to those who have once repented, too.

So, which is it? God abandons believers to unbelief, or, God still accepts them when they are abandoned to unbelief? Clarify what you believe.

There is no which to be had.

IF Christ abandons any believer for 'sin' then singling out the sin of unbelief as opposed to any other sin means ALL believers would be abandoned because the same 'all' sin.

s

Come on, smaller. When a believer sins, even sins the sin of unbelief in Christ, did God let that happen? Or does he just ignore it and doesn't let it get in the way of that person's previous belief and salvation?

 

[JLB]

It is not an unusual matter to 'fall' in this present life. Many are overcome by SATAN.

That 'overcoming' is an internal matter, but it is NOT a permanent matter.

We do have A Savior.



Have stated prior on this matter that falling in this present life by no means equates to being abandoned by God in Christ anymore than Christ abandoning a believer for sin, period.

That doesn't happen.

So, which is it? God abandons believers to unbelief, or, God still accepts them when they are abandoned to unbelief? Clarify what you believe.

There is no which to be had.

IF Christ abandons any believer for 'sin' then singling out the sin of unbelief as opposed to any other sin means ALL believers would be abandoned because the same 'all' sin.

s

The truth is the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, not the beginning.

... receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:3-9

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free!

THE END OF YOUR FAITH IS THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL!

See Matthew 13 the parable of the Sower and the seed. 3 of the 4 received the word with joy, TEMPORARILY!



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

OK. Let's see where this leads. A person is saved, "shows" he is saved by his actions then apostacizes. Your contention is that his "salvation" and his "actions" were misinterpreted by him and everyone else, that he "really wasn't saved in the first place"? If I have your view wrong, please tell me.

No I'm not saying that "his "salvation" and his "actions" were misinterpreted by him and everyone else, that he "really wasn't saved in the first place".
What I am saying is that "grace" has been misinterpreted. Some people when they hear the "grace" message they think that even if they sin or do nothing in faith that it is OK with God. It is not OK with God in my opinion or experience.
I am not judging as to whether they were saved or are saved.

When God gave us His message of Grace through Paul even Paul's own questioned, "should we keep on sinning that grace should abound?" Paul says, "Heaven forbid!"

You keep wanting to give me this "never saved in the first place" Calvinist view that if someone backslides, they were never saved to begin with.
It is NOT MY VIEW.

To me, James is teaching what faith looks like to Jews who have been steeped in Mosaic Law. Not that the message is not one we should also take seriously, we should. The very first thing he address' is LOVE, and what it looks like compared to hypocrisy. Then he teaches that faith is not talk, faith walks. He gives two examples, Abraham who is giant in faith and God's own and Rahab's one act of faith and a pagan until this one act of faith.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews teaches that those who finish the race, are those who are qualified to receive the prize.

As Peter teaches, the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, not because you entered the race, but because you stayed in and finished the race.

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God... 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:1-2,14-16,28-29


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

If he can get people to believe they are saved by a one time declaration and then will always be "cool with God", he has won.

I agree with this statement but not just because of their own life. We intend to do a lot of navel gazing. When we choose to be outside of the will of God for us we affect other people's lives (which is not love) we set a bad example and don't do the works that He would have us do. We can become a stumbling block.
So is satan winning, in their witness, yes. Will he win in the end, I don't think so.

I believe God is BIGGER and He will have His way no matter what or whomever tries to stand in His way.