The midpoint "intermission."

[John the Baptist]

Maybe I was away here a bit long, but I never heard about the connection
between the "the revelation 3:10 ones and the 144000" John. Can you show us
where you establish this. You say they are identical? if so, based on what.

******
John here:
There are just two main forces seen before Christ comes. The One Virgin Faith of Ephesians 4:5 & the Revelation 17:5 ones. (daughters come back home)
Notice the following 'old' post (slightly altered) for who & what takes place. Out of the falling away or shaking comes the 144000. 1 Peter 4:17

Who you or I am does not change the prophecy below! We can be dead (and perhaps will be... I am retired at age 73 come Dec.) and still God is going to have an organized 'Remnant Philadelphia Fold' according to Christ's Everlasting Gospel, period! See Matthew 16:18-19 & Matthew 18:15-18, that is the everlasting Gospel!! John 17:20-23-John 10:16. God will have no loose cannon's saved! Nahum 1:9-Ephesians 6:12. (or sin would again arise)

These ones are still in the 'shaking stage' of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. But Christ will not come again until it is done according to His Everlasting plan! How far along is the shaking?? Notice from the Adventist Review April 2000 page 5 by William G. Johnson:
"In our day the Advent message is roaring like a prairie fire across the face of the earth, and young people are fanning the flames. (Take note!) For Seventh-day Adventists this is the best of times, and the worst of times. Thousands of our dearest and best are walking away from the church that nurtured them, ..."

OK: He does not say why, or where they are going? Many are meeting separately. They are actually scattered all over the place. See Jeremiah 15:16-21. Notice the remarks about the prophecy below. One friend that my wife & I have helped support some, held a series of meetings a while back where he baptized 16 souls. They call themselves the 7th day Remnant church. And some are still going back into Adventist Sabbath schools to do the work that had taught them a need for this shaking. Compare Matthew 10:23 for who the 144000 are. Remember that Christ was already there talking at the time.

OK: A 'fold' is a sanctuary, (represents heavens Zion Matthew 25:1-2) tabernacle, church, denomination, both good or bad, but the 7 churches represent 'only' the virgin ones both good and the gone bad. Yet the Doctrines are Pure Truth. And the Revelation 17:5 ARE ALL OF THE BAD AS A FOLD! . (call it what you desire?)

In Christ's day the reformed fold (copy of the 144000) were true off-shoots! The apostate fold stayed put. John the Baptist even had con/verts 'outside' of Israel of old. (yet their doctrines were virgin ones, & Christ was with them). They had had the SHAKING of Thessalonians 2:1-3! Stop there, (v. 3) for verse 4 goes on into a later time period.

Christ's Virgin 'fold' was twice divorced in the Bible. When Christ came the first time to His own & when He comes the second time to His own. Those with Virgin doctrines only. Pure doctrines. Then there were the Rev. 17:1-5 one's being the great whore with 'daughter harlots'. Compare John 10:16 with Christ's Words of other 'sheep' have I that are not of this 'fold'. Them must I bring. How come?? Because Christ is not in these false non/virgin folds, or why call them out?? Rev. 18:4 states the same ending. 'Come out of her (a woman) 'my' people and be not 'partaker of her sins'. Read on!

They will be eternally lost unless! Our laws are based on this principle, drive the bank robbery get away car & we are guilty. How could the catholic fold membership not be guilty by supporting with Gods blessings that which is openly in print these days? Not to mention their 'false' doctrines? Or protestants with a sun Sabbath. (they can't & they are not)

OK: Fold, Virgin Fold, harlot fold, Church, (true or whore harlot, one has virgin doctrines and Christ is inside of her *or they can be Christ/less! either one. It takes both Christ with His virgin doctrines to be 'in' Christ! Rom. 8:1 )

The last church, candlestick, or fold as in Virgin doctrines, is Laodicea. She is the last recorded seventh fold. No different than the repeated history of Virgin Israel of old.

But we see the seven disappear as did Israel of old also, & the number six replace her candlestick! Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:16-17 is 'Spewed out' & Revelation 3:9 gives the new leader in both histories finds them in desolation! (of Christ) See Matthew 23:38. (not 70AD yet)

Philadelphia is seen in verse Revelation 3:10 as being kept & verse 11 tells us of Christ's coming. Philadelphia is the Remnant out of Revelation 12:17 in both histories. See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. [These faithful few are the 144000 that the world will hear the last Revelation 14:6-10 3 Angels Message from]. 666

These two folds are to be the spectacle of the world, held up in world court for a witness of the Everlasting Gospel. See Matthew 10:23'S REPEAT. Then the 666 testing will find the few left with faithful maturity in the Revelation 17:5 professed apostate folds.

 

[lecoop]

******
First off, everyone who [will be] saved will be required to be Born Again! :fadein: John 3:3 ---John

That is certainly a great verse, and fits the church age perfectly, but will that verse fit those that enter into the millenial kingdom?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

******
John here:
There are just two main forces seen before Christ comes. The One Virgin Faith of Ephesians 4:5 & the Revelation 17:5 ones. (daughters come back home)
Notice the following 'old' post (slightly altered) for who & what takes place. Out of the falling away or shaking comes the 144000. 1 Peter 4:17

Who you or I am does not change the prophecy below! We can be dead (and perhaps will be... I am retired at age 73 come Dec.) and still God is going to have an organized 'Remnant Philadelphia Fold' according to Christ's Everlasting Gospel, period! See Matthew 16:18-19 & Matthew 18:15-18, that is the everlasting Gospel!! John 17:20-23-John 10:16. God will have no loose cannon's saved! Nahum 1:9-Ephesians 6:12. (or sin would again arise)

These ones are still in the 'shaking stage' of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. But Christ will not come again until it is done according to His Everlasting plan! How far along is the shaking?? Notice from the Adventist Review April 2000 page 5 by William G. Johnson:
"In our day the Advent message is roaring like a prairie fire across the face of the earth, and young people are fanning the flames. (Take note!) For Seventh-day Adventists this is the best of times, and the worst of times. Thousands of our dearest and best are walking away from the church that nurtured them, ..."

OK: He does not say why, or where they are going? Many are meeting separately. They are actually scattered all over the place. See Jeremiah 15:16-21. Notice the remarks about the prophecy below. One friend that my wife & I have helped support some, held a series of meetings a while back where he baptized 16 souls. They call themselves the 7th day Remnant church. And some are still going back into Adventist Sabbath schools to do the work that had taught them a need for this shaking. Compare Matthew 10:23 for who the 144000 are. Remember that Christ was already there talking at the time.

OK: A 'fold' is a sanctuary, (represents heavens Zion Matthew 25:1-2) tabernacle, church, denomination, both good or bad, but the 7 churches represent 'only' the virgin ones both good and the gone bad. Yet the Doctrines are Pure Truth. And the Revelation 17:5 ARE ALL OF THE BAD AS A FOLD! . (call it what you desire?)

In Christ's day the reformed fold (copy of the 144000) were true off-shoots! The apostate fold stayed put. John the Baptist even had con/verts 'outside' of Israel of old. (yet their doctrines were virgin ones, & Christ was with them). They had had the SHAKING of Thessalonians 2:1-3! Stop there, (v. 3) for verse 4 goes on into a later time period.

Christ's Virgin 'fold' was twice divorced in the Bible. When Christ came the first time to His own & when He comes the second time to His own. Those with Virgin doctrines only. Pure doctrines. Then there were the Rev. 17:1-5 one's being the great whore with 'daughter harlots'. Compare John 10:16 with Christ's Words of other 'sheep' have I that are not of this 'fold'. Them must I bring. How come?? Because Christ is not in these false non/virgin folds, or why call them out?? Rev. 18:4 states the same ending. 'Come out of her (a woman) 'my' people and be not 'partaker of her sins'. Read on!

They will be eternally lost unless! Our laws are based on this principle, drive the bank robbery get away car & we are guilty. How could the catholic fold membership not be guilty by supporting with Gods blessings that which is openly in print these days? Not to mention their 'false' doctrines? Or protestants with a sun Sabbath. (they can't & they are not)

OK: Fold, Virgin Fold, harlot fold, Church, (true or whore harlot, one has virgin doctrines and Christ is inside of her *or they can be Christ/less! either one. It takes both Christ with His virgin doctrines to be 'in' Christ! Rom. 8:1 )

The last church, candlestick, or fold as in Virgin doctrines, is Laodicea. She is the last recorded seventh fold. No different than the repeated history of Virgin Israel of old.

But we see the seven disappear as did Israel of old also, & the number six replace her candlestick! Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:16-17 is 'Spewed out' & Revelation 3:9 gives the new leader in both histories finds them in desolation! (of Christ) See Matthew 23:38. (not 70AD yet)

Philadelphia is seen in verse Revelation 3:10 as being kept & verse 11 tells us of Christ's coming. Philadelphia is the Remnant out of Revelation 12:17 in both histories. See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. [These faithful few are the 144000 that the world will hear the last Revelation 14:6-10 3 Angels Message from]. 666

These two folds are to be the spectacle of the world, held up in world court for a witness of the Everlasting Gospel. See Matthew 10:23'S REPEAT. Then the 666 testing will find the few left with faithful maturity in the Revelation 17:5 professed apostate folds.

Does anybody understand any of this??????????

I thught sure that God's word was true, as written.

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Either these 144,000 are going to get wings, or they are not who is "saying" here. In the first place, it says "another angel," so let's not change what God has said. This is clearly the message of angels, not men. Period.

They will be eternally lost unless!.....Or protestants with a sun Sabbath.

What does this mean?

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Geo, John here:
(Iscoop why don't you go read 1 John 4:6, 2 Peter 3:16 and notice the Word of 'as they do also the other scriptures, +)

Anyway Geo, the post was for your question.
You say: "Maybe I was away here a bit long, but I never heard about the connection between the "the revelation 3:10 ones and the 144000" John. Can you show us where you establish this. You say they are identical? if so, based on what."

Here is another one for you, or any others who might not be found in Ezekiel 37 or worse. (Hebrews 6:6) that might have some understanding?

When God finished His work of creation. Man was the last thing being created before God was finished. On the seventh day we see where God Set Aside this Day, Blessed the Day & told us that it was for Holy Use. Or at least He SANCTIFIED the Day. Seems that this Memorial of His Creation would always be special anyway, to Him at least? (Webster say to make Holy) God says in Psalms 135:13 "Thy Name, O Lord endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O Lord, throughout all generations."

One might ask ourselves what Adam and Eve's first sermon might had been the first day after their creation? But regardless, we can find over in Isaiah 58:12-14 some good verses to see what God calls His Holy Day. (verse 13 "My Holy Day") Compare Revelation 1:10 & Mark 2:27-28

Verse 12 says:
"And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and shall be called, the repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."

Compare Daniel 7:25 for the reason why this was to be, & you can see in Exodus 16:4-5 & that of Exodus 16:26-28, that this same devil had always attacked the Lord's Special day! And the reason for that was that God tested His creation on only this one test, to see if they were obedient to His whole ten Commandment Eternal Covenant!
Can one picture me telling Christ that I am not going to keep His 7th Day Sabbath, all the while telling Him that I LOVE HIM? For it is He who states, that 'IF' ye LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!

See James 2:8-12! The Eternal Everlasting Covenant can be seen in Hebrews 13:20, and the requirement of the Godhead of repeated history, is clearly seen in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 .

And [our Land of Canaan??] Are we not looking to enter there very soon?? Well take a 'peek' at what their test was, & ask yourself what God requires us to be tested on before we go home to our land of Canaan? See the same 'required' test from Exodus 16, & then note the verse of Exodus 16:35 just after the test, for what & when the Mark of the Beast will be just before we are to enter our Heavenly Home!

 

[Geo]

Thank you John. Last time I was listening to you I would probably
had rejected the full consequences of what you just said. Due to
an earlier pre-conception regarding the timeline of our departure.

But I repented and can accept it today. Yes total faith will be tested,
another one of the tests seems to be to actually be willing to stay
until the end. But the wildest thing I heard today is that when Jesus
comes he will come in His full glory. So what are tests in comparison,
especially if all provisions are His too !

P.S. I hope you didn't miss the political news last week so you know
how much closer we are now. Those boys just know how to identify the
absolute timetable for us. Daniel's 4th kingdom and final dominion.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they
also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because
of him. Even so, Amen.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[lecoop]

John the Baptist said,

(Iscoop why don't you go read 1 John 4:6, 2 Peter 3:16 and notice the Word of 'as they do also the other scriptures, +)

Sorry, but I am neither unlearned and unstable. These verses do not fit my question. Besides, my question was for the readers, not the author.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Geo, John here:
(Iscoop why don't you go read 1 John 4:6, 2 Peter 3:16 and notice the Word of 'as they do also the other scriptures, +)

Anyway Geo, the post was for your question.
You say: "Maybe I was away here a bit long, but I never heard about the connection between the "the revelation 3:10 ones and the 144000" John. Can you show us where you establish this. You say they are identical? if so, based on what."

Here is another one for you, or any others who might not be found in Ezekiel 37 or worse. (Hebrews 6:6) that might have some understanding?

When God finished His work of creation. Man was the last thing being created before God was finished. On the seventh day we see where God Set Aside this Day, Blessed the Day & told us that it was for Holy Use. Or at least He SANCTIFIED the Day. Seems that this Memorial of His Creation would always be special anyway, to Him at least? (Webster say to make Holy) God says in Psalms 135:13 "Thy Name, O Lord endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O Lord, throughout all generations."

One might ask ourselves what Adam and Eve's first sermon might had been the first day after their creation? But regardless, we can find over in Isaiah 58:12-14 some good verses to see what God calls His Holy Day. (verse 13 "My Holy Day") Compare Revelation 1:10 & Mark 2:27-28

Verse 12 says:
"And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and shall be called, the repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."

Compare Daniel 7:25 for the reason why this was to be, & you can see in Exodus 16:4-5 & that of Exodus 16:26-28, that this same devil had always attacked the Lord's Special day! And the reason for that was that God tested His creation on only this one test, to see if they were obedient to His whole ten Commandment Eternal Covenant!
Can one picture me telling Christ that I am not going to keep His 7th Day Sabbath, all the while telling Him that I LOVE HIM? For it is He who states, that 'IF' ye LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!

See James 2:8-12! The Eternal Everlasting Covenant can be seen in Hebrews 13:20, and the requirement of the Godhead of repeated history, is clearly seen in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 .

And [our Land of Canaan??] Are we not looking to enter there very soon?? Well take a 'peek' at what their test was, & ask yourself what God requires us to be tested on before we go home to our land of Canaan? See the same 'required' test from Exodus 16, & then note the verse of Exodus 16:35 just after the test, for what & when the Mark of the Beast will be just before we are to enter our Heavenly Home!

John the Baptist seems to forget some other pertinent verses:

Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

We see here that circumcision of the flesh was to be an everlasting covenant. But what did Paul say?

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


So how could we get from an "everlasting covenant" to "it makes no difference?" And "Christ shall profit you nothing?" This is serious! Glad you asked!

Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

What is Matthew telling us? Only that there IS such a thing as "dispensations" where different rules apply. The Law and the prophets came to end when Jesus was born. It was a new dispensation. Need more proof?

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Still more?

Hebrews 7
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The law changed? How could this be?

Heb 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So we are not under the law at all, but under grace. Old things have passed away. So did the law of the Sabboth pass away? What does the new covenant say?


Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Now, what day were they having church? Hmm. It was on a Sunday!

1 Corinthians 16:2
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Now, what day of the week were they to put in store? Where was the storehouse? Yes, Paul is telling them to take up the offering on the Sunday, or the first day of the week.

Paul's conclusion?

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

So it will be just fine that the general church world comes together on Sunday. God will be with us. Those that make up Saturday church goers are a VERY small percentage of born again people around the world. This is not proof of being right, but it does show that by far the vast majority come together on sunday.

I wonder why the seventh day people seem to skip Acts 2, and 1 Cor. 14?

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Are you telling me that Paul is talking about Gods 10 Commandments being a curse??

If so, you best check out Gal. 2:11-13 to see what 'the subject' being addressed was about? 'of the circumcism'! Then 16-18 was still pointing to this same topic!

And if that is not clear, read verse 11 for where Paul called Peter down? The reference is seen in Acts 5:1-2 & has absolutely NOTHING to do with God Royal Law or ten commandments written in stone!
Notice the verse:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said,] Except ye 'be circumcised' after the MANNER OF MOSES, [/u][YE CANNOT BE SAVED]." Can you even suggest that, that was found in the 10 Commandments of God??? And yet no one will be saved who is not 'circumcised'... but it [required] to be of the HEART!
Deuteronomy 10:16, Deuteronomy 30:6, Romans 2:28-29! (and on & on!)

But not only was this the Subject, but verse 5 also includes 'other's than just Peter' as well, and take notice that it C-L-E-A-R-L-Y
states in this 'inspired' verse.. COMMAND them to keep 'THE LAW OF Moses'!
"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [AND] to command them to keep the [Law of Moses]."

It goes on to say that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter! What matter was that? READ IT AGAIN until you get it right! (no offence meant!) But you, my friends seem to be just as dense as they? You remind me of Peter's Vision of Acts 10, with the reams & reams of PhD stuff penned! And it seems that most of these come out with tainted understanding.

Now: What were the Laws of Moses? Paul stated that:

'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are [found sinners], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For [if I build the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor].'
[This verse] tells of the Universal Covenant 10 commandment law. For where 'NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. (Rom. 4:15) How could Paul say we could be 'found sinners' if there were [now], no law?

OK: Back in Deut. 31 were see Moses with a LAW contained in a book. Called the [Book of the Law!] We also see it placed in the side of the Ark of God! Not inside of the Ark of God, where His 10 Commandments Royal Universal Covenant was & IS LOCATED!!

It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross! [ALL of the CEREMONIAL LAWS] that pointed to Christ's death on the Cross. These were all added because of sin. Gal. 3:19. What were these law?? God does not leave us ignorant if we will search as He commanded. (2 Tim. 3:16-*Matt. 4:4-Matt. 28:20)

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!

Notice Deut 30:10 for the [plural] of commandment's'! "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep [his commandments] and His statues which are written [in THIS BOOK of the law, ..." (both the statues & these commandments are written in the BOOK OF THE LAW)

Again take note in Deut. 31:9 & verses 24-26. And note verse 26 closes with .. "Take [this book of the law] and [put it in the 'side of the Ark'] of the covenant of the Lord (notice these Words, & the Col. 2:14's Words of 'Against us') your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee".

And Paul's choice of Words.. Sabbath day's' plural, feast day's' plural, holy day's' plural? We even see in Acts 12:1-5 that Herod had James killed & Peter was locked up, and it was the Jews of old Israel that were keeping [this Feast Day] that you all keep today, you call it EASTER! (verse 3-4 ibid..) And you say that you are.. 'cursed with a curse'. Gal. 1:6-9!

You can understand Paul if you become the spiritual Jew of Rom. 2:28-38! Born Again.
Notice again the Law of Moses!! 2 Chron.. 8:13
"Even after a certain rate [every day], offering according to the [*commandments of Moses], on [the Sabbath's], and on [the new moon's'], and on the [solemn feast's'], (Easter, huh?) three times in the year, even the [feast of unleavened bread] and the [feast of week's'] and the feasts of [tabernacle's']."
These laws ALL pointed to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin's of the world. When the Vail rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand, these laws of Moses were FINISHED, (Gal. 3:19) and the way was made into the Most Holy Place itself! Here is where the Ark of God was seen that had His 'TESTIMONY inside of His Ark! See Rev. 11:19.

NOW: Bottom line! Notice real good.
"And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a SIGN between [Me and you], that ye [may know that I am the Lord your God]. Notwithstanding the children rebelled [against me: they walked not in my 'STATUES' ... WHEREFORE I GAVE THEM [ALSO] STATUES THAT WERE NOT GOOD, AND JUDGEMENTS WHEREBY THEY SHOULD *NOT LIVE.." Eze. 20:verse 20 & verse 25.What did that say?? Read it AGAIN!

Just realize that 'just perhaps' you think that you understand Paul? (smile!)

---John

 

[lecoop]

Are you telling me that Paul is talking about Gods 10 Commandments being a curse??

If so, you best check out Gal. 2:11-13 to see what 'the subject' being addressed was about? 'of the circumcism'! Then 16-18 was still pointing to this same topic!

And if that is not clear, read verse 11 for where Paul called Peter down? The reference is seen in Acts 5:1-2 & has absolutely NOTHING to do with God Royal Law or ten commandments written in stone!
Notice the verse:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said,] Except ye 'be circumcised' after the MANNER OF MOSES, [/u][YE CANNOT BE SAVED]." Can you even suggest that, that was found in the 10 Commandments of God??? And yet no one will be saved who is not 'circumcised'... but it [required] to be of the HEART!
Deuteronomy 10:16, Deuteronomy 30:6, Romans 2:28-29! (and on & on!)

But not only was this the Subject, but verse 5 also includes 'other's than just Peter' as well, and take notice that it C-L-E-A-R-L-Y
states in this 'inspired' verse.. COMMAND them to keep 'THE LAW OF Moses'!
"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [AND] to command them to keep the [Law of Moses]."

It goes on to say that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter! What matter was that? READ IT AGAIN until you get it right! (no offence meant!) But you, my friends seem to be just as dense as they? You remind me of Peter's Vision of Acts 10, with the reams & reams of PhD stuff penned! And it seems that most of these come out with tainted understanding.

Now: What were the Laws of Moses? Paul stated that:

'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are [found sinners], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For [if I build the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor].'
[This verse] tells of the Universal Covenant 10 commandment law. For where 'NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. (Rom. 4:15) How could Paul say we could be 'found sinners' if there were [now], no law?

OK: Back in Deut. 31 were see Moses with a LAW contained in a book. Called the [Book of the Law!] We also see it placed in the side of the Ark of God! Not inside of the Ark of God, where His 10 Commandments Royal Universal Covenant was & IS LOCATED!!

It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross! [ALL of the CEREMONIAL LAWS] that pointed to Christ's death on the Cross. These were all added because of sin. Gal. 3:19. What were these law?? God does not leave us ignorant if we will search as He commanded. (2 Tim. 3:16-*Matt. 4:4-Matt. 28:20)

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!

Notice Deut 30:10 for the [plural] of commandment's'! "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep [his commandments] and His statues which are written [in THIS BOOK of the law, ..." (both the statues & these commandments are written in the BOOK OF THE LAW)

Again take note in Deut. 31:9 & verses 24-26. And note verse 26 closes with .. "Take [this book of the law] and [put it in the 'side of the Ark'] of the covenant of the Lord (notice these Words, & the Col. 2:14's Words of 'Against us') your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee".

And Paul's choice of Words.. Sabbath day's' plural, feast day's' plural, holy day's' plural? We even see in Acts 12:1-5 that Herod had James killed & Peter was locked up, and it was the Jews of old Israel that were keeping [this Feast Day] that you all keep today, you call it EASTER! (verse 3-4 ibid..) And you say that you are.. 'cursed with a curse'. Gal. 1:6-9!

You can understand Paul if you become the spiritual Jew of Rom. 2:28-38! Born Again.
Notice again the Law of Moses!! 2 Chron.. 8:13
"Even after a certain rate [every day], offering according to the [*commandments of Moses], on [the Sabbath's], and on [the new moon's'], and on the [solemn feast's'], (Easter, huh?) three times in the year, even the [feast of unleavened bread] and the [feast of week's'] and the feasts of [tabernacle's']."
These laws ALL pointed to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin's of the world. When the Vail rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand, these laws of Moses were FINISHED, (Gal. 3:19) and the way was made into the Most Holy Place itself! Here is where the Ark of God was seen that had His 'TESTIMONY inside of His Ark! See Rev. 11:19.

NOW: Bottom line! Notice real good.
"And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a SIGN between [Me and you], that ye [may know that I am the Lord your God]. Notwithstanding the children rebelled [against me: they walked not in my 'STATUES' ... WHEREFORE I GAVE THEM [ALSO] STATUES THAT WERE NOT GOOD, AND JUDGEMENTS WHEREBY THEY SHOULD *NOT LIVE.." Eze. 20:verse 20 & verse 25.What did that say?? Read it AGAIN!

Just realize that 'just perhaps' you think that you understand Paul? (smile!)

---John

I say! Well I say! Went right over his head!

Let's try this again. All (again I say, All) that I was pointing out is that there was a verse in the old covenant that said circumcision of the flesh was to be an everlasting covenant. But then I pointed out that 'everlasting" was cut short and only lasted as long as the old covenant lasted. That was ALL I was pointing out. However, I hoped that you would or could make the jump from that to the law of the sabboth. I can see that that was too big a jump.

So let's try this:

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Did you catch that? He "took it out of the way!" What does "out of the way," mean to you? To me it means gone.

Paul goes on:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Did you catch that one? Or did that too, go right over your head?

Then we have the fact that Jesus fulfilled the law, and so a new covenant came into being. It has two commandments: Love God, love others. Pretty simple.

Then we have Paul saying that no man can be justified by keeping the Law. Yet, that is exactly what you are trying to do!

I did not say that I am cursed. Paul said that one that attempts to justify himself by the law is cursed.

We are not going to solve this age old debate here. You have said your peace, and I have said mine. However, I would like for you to answer my question.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

To keep the sabboth - or not: which law superceeds another?

John 7
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge

Someone is to be circumcised on the 8th day. What if the 8th day falls on the Sabboth? Which law superceeds the other? They performed the circumcision, even on the sabboth, If that fell on the 8th day,, showing that the law of Abraham superceeded the law of Moses.

Therefore, since the law of circumcision is more important than Moses' law, which includes keeping the Sabboth, why would Paul say what he did about circumcision? If the greater law could be done away with, even though it was called an "everlasting covenant", then it is certain that the law of Moses could be fulfilled also, and we have no need to observe it.

So what was the conclusion of the Jerusalem conference?

Acts 15:
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.


So keeping the law of Moses was discussed. What was the conclusion?


Acts 15
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So what was the conclusion? The Gentile church did NOT have to be circumcised (an everylasting covenant, but given to the Jews) nor did they have to keep the laws of Moses. This "law of Moses' certainly included the 10 commandments, for they were the very first "law of Moses."

Last, I want to bring on something of a different nature. Today, the christian church universal, could be divided into two main groups: those that believe in and receive the mighty baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues, and then those that deny this experience.

If I am wrong about this, I trust that John the Baptist will correct me. The seventh day churches would fit into the second group above: that is, they do not believe in the baptism with the HS, with the initial evidence of tongues.

If they are right about this seventh day issue, why would the majority of the Christian church be Pentecostal, but the 7th day groups are not? Would not the HS be more "alive" in the 7th day churches, since they have the "corner" on truth?

John the Baptist, can you explain this?

Since the adventists have the truth, (according to John the Baptist) one would think that there would be more healings, more miracles, more people being filled with the HS, more of everything that God has promised us, in these churches. However, I do not think this is the case.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Was there sin before the law (ten commandments)? Certainly, for men knew by their conscience what was right and what was wrong. Certainly Cain knew that it was wrong to kill his brother. But what Paul is saying, is that without a law, the sin is not imputed.

Today, the law, including the 10 commandments, were "nailed to the cross." So is there sin today? Certainly there is sin, but the sin is not imputed! What does Paul say?

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

And:

2 Cor 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Thank God = we are so blessed, for God does not impute our sins against us!

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Was there sin before the law (ten commandments)? Certainly, for men knew by their conscience what was right and what was wrong. Certainly Cain knew that it was wrong to kill his brother. But what Paul is saying, is that without a law, the sin is not imputed.

Today, the law, including the 10 commandments, were "nailed to the cross." So is there sin today? Certainly there is sin, but the sin is not imputed! What does Paul say?

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

And:

2 Cor 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Thank God = we are so blessed, for God does not impute our sins against us!

Coop

****
While I was addressing another's post question, you have given me not just two, but several admonitions. Thanks! (Titus 3:9-11)

But for the forum viewers, how do we see the N.T. Inspiration from Hebrews 6:6 if one is as you say & are 'posting'? A Godhead of useless threats??? Hardly! For we 'see' many doing as Peter was also INSPIRED to pen in 2 Peter 2:19-22 ... 'while they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption.' Yet, we see that there is a law to find them 'Desired' servants of corruption! And they END up in satans pig/pen! Whatever? :robot:

I see that you say that you are 'mature'! (or something like that) I am also mature in the Faith. So, we both have had several mature knowing 'times' (Leviticus 16:19 & 27-34AD) pass over us, to be 'Led' Romans 8:14 into all Truth if we had needed to be. And we are going no where surely, that can be seen. Opposite directions! (Acts 5:32 Matthew 4:4) So Titus 3:9-11 applies to us. (me at least)

So which ever of us are as was Cain in Genesis 4:7, and having this 'mature' Hebrews 6:4-6 'Made Partaker of the Holy Ghost' full Mature knowledge, doesn't need mine or your 2 Corinthians 4:2 twisting, huh?

So? Just do your thing, whatever your 'desire' might be??? "If ye LOVE ME, Keep MY COMMANDMENTS." :fadein:

---John

PS: It seems that you were the Mature one that posted before that you did not know what I was talking about? Get back with 2 Peter 3:16 again.

 

[lecoop]

John The Baptist wrote:

There are just two main forces seen before Christ comes. The One Virgin Faith of Ephesians 4:5 & the Revelation 17:5 ones. (daughters come back home)
Notice the following 'old' post (slightly altered) for who & what takes place. Out of the falling away or shaking comes the 144000. 1 Peter 4:17

Is this the truth of the scripture, or is this just more false doctrine? And which "coming" is this in reference to? Let's suppose it is the rapture of the church. So who is on the earth before Jesus' coming.

So the first group we see is the church of Jesus Christ, the body of Christ on earth. We don't need to add some goofy prefix, such as "the One Virgin Faith of Ephesians..." Some of this group will be raptured off the planet at the rapture. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

The second group are these:

Rev 7
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These are the 144,000 Jews that will become God's firstfruits of Israel. At the time of the rapture, they will just have been sealed, or their sealing will be imminent.

There will be yet another group, aside from those that take the mark of the beast. They will be those that refuse the mark of the beast, and are not lawless, so are not removed from the earth (one taken and one left) when the parable of the tares takes place. Of course, most of these that refuse the mark of the beast, will be put to death, but some will survive, and will then be judged as "sheep or goats." The sheep will be allowed into His kingdom. The goats will be cast into hell.

Finally, we have all those that will take the mark of the beast, and will be cast into hell.

We find then, that there are not "two main forces."

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...Yes, Jesus says the days will be shorter, but when? It is after the abomination event, that will take place near the midpoint of the week, and it will be after the beast starts his great persecution. It is these days of great persecution or "great tribulation" that are shortened." ...

Now let's go back to the 4th trumpet. It says "a third of the sun was struck..." However, it also says "A third of the day was without light, and the night as well." This really does sound like a shorter day, and a shorter night! However, God could just shut off the light of the sun for a while, and our clocks still read a 24 hour day. Or God could turn a 24 hour day into a 16 hour day. There is a verse that says in God's anger, the sun would move out of its place! However, if the days got shorter, that would mess up the count of days that has been written for centuries. This time must be 3 1/2 years, and it must be 42 months, and it must be 1260 days. ....

Coop

I got a question on your definition of 'shortened days'.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Isn't it possible that the term actually means that events of that time would have, could have stretched out for years and years, but the length of that time were cut short? A shorter number of days, rather than a shorter number of hours in a day?

For example, rather than the events that have been set in motion going on and on for decades, God stepped in and blew a trumpet or something and put an end to it?

That is the only way that the statement "for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened' makes sense to me. Endurance being the issue.

Just a thought.

 

[lecoop]

I got a question on your definition of 'shortened days'.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Isn't it possible that the term actually means that events of that time would have, could have stretched out for years and years, but the length of that time were cut short? A shorter number of days, rather than a shorter number of hours in a day?

For example, rather than the events that have been set in motion going on and on for decades, God stepped in and blew a trumpet or something and put an end to it?

That is the only way that the statement "for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened' makes sense to me. Endurance being the issue.

Just a thought.

That is exactly what I think this verse means. God has given the antichrist 42 months of authrority to do what he will do. However, this is the same 42 months in which God will pour out the 7 plagues and his vials of wrath, along with the plagues. I am convinced that these plagues, poured out on the antichrist's kingdom, is what "shortens" the day of his persecution. His armies will be gnawing their tongues in pain, sitting in total darkness, unable to put anyone to death. So it is God that shortens the days of persecution.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Don't you just love ambiguous prophesies? :roll: :wink:

 

[lecoop]

Don't you just love ambiguous prophesies? :roll: :wink:

They keep us on our toes, and continually asking God to help us understand! 8-)

 

[Vic C.]

I got a question on your definition of 'shortened days'.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Isn't it possible that the term actually means that events of that time would have, could have stretched out for years and years, but the length of that time were cut short? A shorter number of days, rather than a shorter number of hours in a day?

For example, rather than the events that have been set in motion going on and on for decades, God stepped in and blew a trumpet or something and put an end to it?

That is the only way that the statement "for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened' makes sense to me. Endurance being the issue.

Just a thought.

Go back and read the later half of page one of this thread. We covered the ramifications of what would happen if the hours in the day were shortened. In plain English, it would screw up the number of days in a week, month, year, etc.

What this verse suggests, as you have pointed out, is the cumulative numbers of days is shortened, so that Satan's persecution or tribulation and the impending Wrath does not go on indefinitely. (or something like that, lol)

GTG, lunch break os over. 8-)

 

[Darrell dunn]

You are saying that God changes his mind about the time, My God does not make misstakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[John the Baptist]

You are saying that God changes his mind about the time, My God does not make misstakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***
All of the Godheads threatenings & blessings are Eternal Covenant Conditional, They do not change, but we do. And the Lord always tells us of the few times something is to be altered.

---John