The Mystery of Lawlessness.

[Deborah13]

Yes. Jesus is speaking prophetically. He would be crucified soon which would set the stage for Satan's demise. He was saying that His death will defeat Satan. Of course there is a time from His death to the tribulation, but He is looking forward to the final consumation (Rev. 20:10). Remember when Jesus said "it is finished? That statement is tied into the Scripture that you are speaking about.

Hi Chopper,
I have a question, too?
Are you saying that you believe that Satan is still in heaven right now? Or at least still has direct access to God/Father and Jesus, like in Job?

 

[Chopper]

Yea He said it was finished that is a done deal right .... and He said 'now' He did not say it will be finished 2000+ years from now..... I will not continue this point Chopper... You are a good brother and a welcome voice in these forums thank you for your reply

OK Reba, I understand. I'll make this last statement. Jesus was speaking prophesy. I think this statement "now" set a stage of defeat to Satan and all his evil forces. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection is a significant ending and starting point in the spiritual realm. It ends a freedom of Satan to run around unhindered by any power to stop him. God allowed him to be the god of this world with the dominion that Adam gave him because of Adam's disobedience. NOW, there is power and authority to hinder his free-for-all. It is Christ's Church. Remember when Jesus told Peter, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it"? There was a major change because Jesus was returning to His Father. Through the presence of the Holy Spirit in believers and the Church, there was a new power released to combat Satan that was never there before. So Jesus' statement "now" included this new change, and a future death sentance on Satan.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,
I have a question, too?
Are you saying that you believe that Satan is still in heaven right now? Or at least still has direct access to God/Father and Jesus, like in Job?

Hi Deb, yes, there is no evidence to the contrary. His realm is the earth, but has access to heaven because it looks like all angels who have a purpose here on earth, such as Hebrews says "are ministering angels" they have to give an account of their activities. Whether good or bad.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[JLB]

Yea He said it was finished that is a done deal right .... and He said 'now' He did not say it will be finished 2000+ years from now..... I will not continue this point Chopper... You are a good brother and a welcome voice in these forums thank you for your reply

Your point would have more relevance if you would be clear in defining where satan is cast of, as well as addressing the phrase "shall be" cast out, which relates to a time in the future.

Satan was Lucifer, and was removed from heaven, that is the third heaven, the moment iniquity was found in his heart.

Since that time he has access to the heavens, which some refer to as the "second heaven", until the time when he will be removed from the heavens and cast down to the earth.

Paul refers to him as the prince of the power of the air.

Also, principalities are powers in the heavenly realm.

There will come a time when he will be cast down to the earth.

This time has yet to come.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

Your point would have more relevance if you would be clear in defining where satan is cast of, as well as addressing the phrase "shall be" cast out, which relates to a time in the future.

Satan was Lucifer, and was removed from heaven, that is the third heaven, the moment iniquity was found in his heart.

Since that time he has access to the heavens, which some refer to as the "second heaven", until the time when he will be removed from the heavens and cast down to the earth.

Paul refers to him as the prince of the power of the air.

Also, principalities are powers in the heavenly realm.

There will come a time when he will be cast down to the earth.

This time has yet to come.

JLB

Thank you my friend for the clarification.

 

[Ryan]

It is important to note that, the return to the practices of the law of Moses is referred to as lawlessness.

The Lawless one of 2 Thessalonians 2, is the same "prince who is to come", who confirms a covenant that will empower the Jews to build the very Temple in which he will go to and proclaim himself as God.

He that initiates the return to animal sacrifices, and building of this Temple is call the man of sin, the son of perdition, as well as the lawless one.

Scripture please...

 

[JLB]

Scripture please...

Again, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Daniel 9:27

The "false messiah" who is called by several names, one of which is lawless one, confirms a covenant with many for one week that will authorize the building of the Third Temple as well as resume animal sacrifices.

The animal sacrifices will cease when he himself goes to this Temple and proclaims himself as God.

The return to the law of Moses, which is trying trying to establish your own righteousness, is in fact lawlessness.

Read it for yourself.

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." Romans 10:1-5

...seeking to establish their own righteousness.

Seeking to establish your own righteousness is the very idea of "doing what is right in your own eyes", which is the definition of lawlessness.

Establishing your own righteousness, means you are not submitting to God's righteousness.

This is the Mystery of Lawlessness.

Stealing, lying, murdering, adultery, is lawlessness, however, there is no mystery in these actions.

That's why Jesus said to the pharisee's, -

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Matthew 23:15

Son of hell, is another way of saying son of perdition.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

JLB, what is the OT all about?

 

[JLB]

JLB, what is the OT all about?

Brother, you asked for scriptures.

I gave you scripture.

You don't like the scriptures I gave you?

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness...

The false messiah will re-institute the Temple and animal sacrifices.

Many will be drawn in to this lawlessness.

For God will send them strong delusion.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

What did God always tell the people from Judges to Malachi to return back to when they disobeyed? Was it their own righteousness or back to the Law of Moses?

 

[JLB]

What did God always tell the people from Judges to Malachi to return back to when they disobeyed? Was it their own righteousness or back to the Law of Moses?

Brother, please address the scripture I gave you, that you asked for, and discuss this scripture as it relates to this thread topic.

I will not play 20 questions with you.

I have gone down this road with you, before and you never seem to stay with the context, or theme of the discussion.

If you want to bring people back under the law of Moses, then that is your business.

I'm sure you can find a few folks here that are all about being under Moses law.

If you want to discuss this scripture, from Romans 10, and how it relates to the Mystery of lawlessness, then I will be glade to discuss with you.

Paul fought against those who tried to come behind him and bring the Churches he raised up for God, back under the law of Moses.

His letters are a testimony of this very thing.


Thanks and God Bless.

JLB

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[JLB]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

What about my post falls into the category of Trolling?

 

[reba]

Please members take note of the highlighted segments of the paragraph.. Post #33... God does not have all of us at the same place in our walks with Him...

 

[JLB]

What did God always tell the people from Judges to Malachi to return back to when they disobeyed? Was it their own righteousness or back to the Law of Moses?

The heartbeat of God, from Genesis to Revelation, is for His people to come to Him and walk with Him in the relationship of faith, as Abraham was our example.

God calls His people to return to Him.

The law of Moses is not of faith.

Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Galatians 3:12


Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6


Christ came to redeem those who were under the law.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5

Our goal is to walk in the Spirit, to walk in His Presence and therefore be blameless.



JLB

 

[Ryan]

Without this degenerating into another meaningless discussion about the Torah of Truth, or the Law of Moses, I just want to focus on the phrase "temple of God."

House of God is used about 80 times according to the NASB and is used almost exclusively talking abou the temple of God. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version=NASB&search="house of God"&searchtype=all&language1=en&spanbegin=1&spanend=73&resultspp=500

Temple of God according to the NASB is used about 9 times and is in the majority talking about the actual temple or house of God with a couple anomalies. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version=NASB&search="temple of God"&searchtype=all&language1=en&spanbegin=1&spanend=73&resultspp=500

Now of the 90 or so times the phrase temple of God or house of God is used, it is solely speaking of the God sanctioned, ordained, seal of approval, two thumbs up to be the place where God can dwell with man. Meaning when it was built, God's presence was there (maybe not always, but when they obeyed his Shekinah glory was manifested there).

My point, and the most serious question is: Of the 90 or so times the house or temple of God is mentioned, it was always God sanctioned and approved, yet you argue in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the temple of God being built is a complete anomaly from all the rest of scriptures. This temple of God is now of the antichrist? How can it be of the antichrist if it is called the temple of God. Please help explain this anomaly please...

Exodus 25:8
Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them.

Hebrews 8:5
who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

However, satan had a plan...

Isaiah 14:13
“But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
That has been satan's plan all along, to knock God off his throne and exalt himself above all others. But he has no dominion in heaven, so the only other place he can exalt himself that replicates heaven would be in the earthly temple.

 

[JLB]

...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,8

The place the man of sin is revealed is the Temple.

The reason there will be another Temple is, men who follow Judaism, seek to establish their own righteousness.

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:1-4

Those that seek their own righteousness, reject the idea that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

Those that seek to build this Temple, have rejected the Messiah that God has sent into the world, to save the world.

These that seek to establish their own righteousness, seek to do so by the guidelines of Judaism.

Their desire for a temple will be granted to them by the lawless one.

These who seek to establish their own righteousness will follow and worship the lawless one as God.

They have rejected God's way, and have chosen their own way.

as it is written,

there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie... 2 Thessalonians 2:11


The mystery of lawlessness, is man's seeking his own righteousness...


JLB

 

[Ryan]

The question wasn't answered. Another Bible Gateway search showed the phrase "of God" came up 886 times in the NASB bible. Here are just a few of the many things that belong to God: "Ordinance of God" "Word of God" "Truth of God" "Son of God" "Child of God" "Righteousness of God" "Gospel of God" "Kingdom of God" "Right hand of God" "Work of God" "Glory of God" "Promise of God" "Wrath of God" "Spirit of God" "Forbearance of God" "Bond-servant of God" etc, etc, etc.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...SB&searchtype=all&resultspp=500&startnumber=1
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...&searchtype=all&resultspp=500&startnumber=501

Now of the 886 times of God is used, you say that only in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the temple not really of God? If it is not of God, how can it then be considered Holy?

Matthew 24:15
[ Perilous Times ] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Mark 13:14
“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Search Holy on Bible Gateway, and you will find NEVER is anything that is not of God ever, ever considered Holy. Not once.

Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”

Daniel 8:14
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

Notice the holy place will be properly restored after the abomination?

The bible does not support one thing you are asserting.

 

[JLB]

The question wasn't answered. Another Bible Gateway search showed the phrase "of God" came up 886 times in the NASB bible. Here are just a few of the many things that belong to God: "Ordinance of God" "Word of God" "Truth of God" "Son of God" "Child of God" "Righteousness of God" "Gospel of God" "Kingdom of God" "Right hand of God" "Work of God" "Glory of God" "Promise of God" "Wrath of God" "Spirit of God" "Forbearance of God" "Bond-servant of God" etc, etc, etc.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search="of God"&version=NASB&searchtype=all&resultspp=500&startnumber=1
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search="of God"&version=NASB&searchtype=all&resultspp=500&startnumber=501

Now of the 886 times of God is used, you say that only in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the temple not really of God? If it is not of God, how can it then be considered Holy?

Matthew 24:15
[ Perilous Times ] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Mark 13:14
“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Search Holy on Bible Gateway, and you will find NEVER is anything that is not of God ever, ever considered Holy. Not once.

Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”

Daniel 8:14
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

Notice the holy place will be properly restored after the abomination?

The bible does not support one thing you are asserting.

The mystery of lawlessness, is man's seeking his own righteousness...


Your not addressing my post or the scriptures I posted.


The man of sin, the lawless one will go to the Temple and proclaim himself as God.

Do you feel that this next Temple is to be used for lawful practices, or lawless practices?

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2 Thessalonians 2:11

Why do you think God is sending them that are associated with this Temple, strong delusion?


JLB