The Mystery of Lawlessness.

[Ryan]

For all the Berean's in the house, here is the scripture -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:31-32

The old covenant became obsolete when these words were spoken out of the mouth of Jeremiah, by God.

It vanished away at the Cross.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." Romans 10:1-5

Those that seek to establish their own righteousness will build another Temple.

Men who follow Judaism continue to reject the Messiah.

The will be granted one that they will accept.

I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. John 5:43


JLB

The New Covenant, if you look at is closer actually has the meaning of a renewing, or a rebuilding of the Old Covenant. The only change is instead of the atonement or covering of sins, sins would now be remembered no more. God is so loving that even with Israel and Judah's disobedience, he is now not going to remember their sins. Isn't that amazing and speaks to his love, patience and long suffering with his people Israel and Judah? Not only that, but his Spirit will be put within them to obey his law.

God is perfect, we are not. Is there a need to change his perfect law (Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.)?

Or a need to change an imperfect people (Jeremiah 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law [Torah] within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.)?

 

[Ryan]

I wonder if you two are speaking of two events. This is how I see your posts; Ryan is speaking about the abomination of desolation and Temple of 70AD and JLB is speaking about a restored temple during the tribulation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Is there any reason why there couldn't be double fulfillments with this? I have learned we have to quit looking at prophecy as solely as a checklist to check off when it has happened. There could be double or more fulfillments of a prophecy. Could there not? I am thinking of the Harbinger book if you have ever read it.

 

[Chopper]

Is there any reason why there couldn't be double fulfillments with this? I have learned we have to quit looking at prophecy as solely as a checklist to check off when it has happened. There could be double or more fulfillments of a prophecy. Could there not? I am thinking of the Harbinger book if you have ever read it.

No I have not, unfortunately. I believe you've got some truth there. Double or more fulfillments, Yes! You are right, for some strange reason we have to have an exact place, time, and a host of other things to answer a prophesy. Most times we are not even close. Good thinking!!

 

[Ryan]

Did not the focus of Salvation change from being righteous from following Moses law to righteousness being offered to the Jew, not on following the Law entirely, but receiving Jesus as their Messiah and realizing His Blood took away their sins? Up to that point, animal sacrifices were beneficial, but now it was Christ's blood sacrifice that they were to receive. As a Christian, I see Moses Law very important for me to learn and apply to my life. Moses Law is not a requirement for my Salvation, receiving Christ's blood sacrifice is. Now, I have adopted Moses Law and Christ's commands as my way of life because I don't think that the Holy Spirit, Who is in charge of my comings and goings will throw away Moses Law and only stick to Christ's commands. They both are included in how I'm supposed to walk "in the Spirit".

Nobody was ever saved pre-Jesus by salvation by works. Animal sacrifices, specifically Passover spoke to the Lamb of God that would take away the sins of the world. Moses law was never meant to save, it was for an already redeemed people to follow so all would go well with them so God could bless them.

Christ's teachings is straight from the Law of Moses. He could not teach anything differently because that was not the Father's will.

 

[JLB]

The New Covenant, if you look at is closer actually has the meaning of a renewing, or a rebuilding of the Old Covenant. The only change is instead of the atonement or covering of sins, sins would now be remembered no more. God is so loving that even with Israel and Judah's disobedience, he is now not going to remember their sins. Isn't that amazing and speaks to his love, patience and long suffering with his people Israel and Judah? Not only that, but his Spirit will be put within them to obey his law.

God is perfect, we are not. Is there a need to change his perfect law (Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.)?

Or a need to change an imperfect people (Jeremiah 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law [Torah] within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.)?

Yes, there was a need to change the law.

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

The mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

Exchanging the righteousness of God, for a man centered righteousness, whereby man keeps this feast day, and man does this ritual, and man does not kindle a fire on the sabbath, and man wears this clothing, and man doesn't eat that food... is seeking to establish your own righteousness.

Christ came to redeem those who were under the law.

Yet, you say we are to be under the law. Why?

This is the Mystery of lawlessness.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, I'm curious as to why you spend so much time referring to the Law of Moses.

Because the antichrist is the lawless one. If I know what is in the Law of Moses, it will be easy to identify who the antichrist will be, or the lawless one, or the one who preaches against the Law of Moses or the Torah.

 

[Ryan]

Yes, there was a need to change the law.

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

The mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

Exchanging the righteousness of God, for a man centered righteousness, whereby man keeps this feast day, and man does this ritual, and man does not kindle a fire on the sabbath, and man wears this clothing, and man doesn't eat that food... is seeking to establish your own righteousness.

Christ came to redeem those who were under the law.

Yet, you say we are to be under the law. Why?

This is the Mystery of lawlessness.


JLB

Really, that isn't what the bible says. The Law of Moses is the standard of righteousness set by God.

Deuteronomy 4:8
Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

Deuteronomy 6:25
It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

God does not change:

Malachi 3:6
“For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

[Ryan]

Hebrews 7:11 must be included as well because Hebrews 7:12 is not a stand alone verse

Hebrews 7:11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

The change in law was the imperfect, human Levitical system to the perfect, Melchizedek system. That was the change in law, just the priesthood.

 

[Deborah13]

In reading Zecharaih and Ezekiel I find that these references are to the return of Israel from captivity to the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple. I don't see any reference to the millenium. From my studies, I find no animal sacrifices since the death of the Christ. There is no purpose in the old sacrifices, Christ has shed His blood, the final blood sacrifice. That's how I see it.

imo
I agree with you Chopper. There is no longer any other sacrifice for sin, other than what our Lord did at the cross. He accomplished it all, one time for many.
To seek any other way, would be to fall from grace.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 7:11 must be included as well because Hebrews 7:12 is not a stand alone verse

Hebrews 7:11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

The change in law was the imperfect, human Levitical system to the perfect, Melchizedek system. That was the
change in law, just the priesthood.

We'll anyone that can read can refute your claim here.

Change in the priesthood and also a change in the law.

The obsolete old covenant is no longer valid, as the blood of animals can not remove sins.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

imo
I agree with you Chopper. There is no longer any other sacrifice for sin, other than what our Lord did at the cross. He accomplished it all, one time for many.
To seek any other way, would be to fall from grace.

Oh boy Deb, It seems so simple to me but there is an awful lot to these things. It scares me sometimes when I realize that His thoughts are not my thoughts. I supposed, when I get to heaven, I'll be surprised that I knew so little. As a teacher of the Scriptures, I have a huge responsibility to teach the Truth.

 

[jasoncran]

Oh boy Deb, It seems so simple to me but there is an awful lot to these things. It scares me sometimes when I realize that His thoughts are not my thoughts. I supposed, when I get to heaven, I'll be surprised that I knew so little. As a teacher of the Scriptures, I have a huge responsibility to teach the Truth.

that is well jewish, the jews teach that when does and enters into gan eden, one will relearn the torah as it was meant to be. I buy that. love will become our nature and we will see how unholy we were then and how LOVING our GOD was to die for us.

 

[Deborah13]

Oh boy Deb, It seems so simple to me but there is an awful lot to these things. It scares me sometimes when I realize that His thoughts are not my thoughts. I supposed, when I get to heaven, I'll be surprised that I knew so little. As a teacher of the Scriptures, I have a huge responsibility to teach the Truth.

Well you certainly are not alone here, Chopper. We see now through a glass darkly but then....

 

[Chopper]

that is well jewish, the jews teach that when does and enters into gan eden, one will relearn the torah as it was meant to be. I buy that. love will become our nature and we will see how unholy we were then and how LOVING our GOD was to die for us.

Oh Jason, I know that you are sooooo right!

 

[jasoncran]

that was told to me from an admin who listened to them more then I do. StoveBolts. Hillel taught that ere the cross.

 

[Chopper]

that was told to me from an admin who listened to them more then I do. StoveBolts. Hillel taught that ere the cross.

OK

 

[jasoncran]

there is a reason i think hillel will be in heaven.

 

[Chopper]

there is a reason i think hillel will be in heaven.

I can't remember what hillel is. And why do you think hillel will be in heaven?

 

[jasoncran]

hillel is the grandpa of gammelel, hillel is the person who taught the law to the Pharisees who didn't understand the law. hillel was of such character that he would disagree he still would consider you a jew if you did the torah. theres a lot of grey areas that were hard to teach and discern. divorce being one of them. jesus sided with hillel with every thing but one thing.that was divorce. shimei was the other person who taugh the law. both men walked and talked together and loved each other. their students who became the Pharisees in jesus day would miss that nature and argue way to much. hillel also was into giving to the poor and being humble and very much like Abraham. the more one studies Abraham. you will see jesus.

 

[JLB]

hillel is the grandpa of gammelel, hillel is the person who taught the law to the Pharisees who didn't understand the law. hillel was of such character that he would disagree he still would consider you a jew if you did the torah. theres a lot of grey areas that were hard to teach and discern. divorce being one of them. jesus sided with hillel with every thing but one thing.that was divorce. shimei was the other person who taugh the law. both men walked and talked together and loved each other. their students who became the Pharisees in jesus day would miss that nature and argue way to much. hillel also was into giving to the poor and being humble and very much like Abraham. the more one studies Abraham. you will see jesus.

:amen