The Mystery of Lawlessness.

[Ryan]

I have showed you where the error is in your commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2. I gave you 886, 80 and 9 times the reasons why your interpretation of this is incorrect. What lawlessness means is actually Torahlessness. True story. Get out your concordance and look up G457, G458 and G459. What does it say?

Maybe Chopper can help us out here?

 

[JLB]

I have showed you where the error is in your commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2. I gave you 886, 80 and 9 times the reasons why your interpretation of this is incorrect. What lawlessness means is actually Torahlessness. True story. Get out your concordance and look up G457, G458 and G459. What does it say?

Maybe Chopper can help us out here?

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." Romans 10:1-5


If Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, what is the purpose of the Temple.

Is sacrificing animals in the Temple righteous.

Is seeking their own righteousness, the righteousness of God.

If sacrificing animals in the temple is not righteousness, then what is it?

It is unrighteousness.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:11


JLB

 

[Ryan]

Again, look deeper into the text.

The Greek word for "end" in this passage is telos, and telos is defined in Strong’s Greek Dictionary as: "to set out for a definite point or goal, the point aimed at as a limit" — No. 5056.

This word "end" found in Romans 10:4 could also be translated "goal." A better rendition of this verse in the CJB, which reads, "For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts."

The same Greek word telos is translated "end" in James 5:11: "…you have seen the end [telos] of the Lord." Has The Lord come to an end?

As my other points were not addressed, just consider this:

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The Torah or the Law of Moses is so much more than sacrificing animals.

 

[Chopper]

The question wasn't answered. Another Bible Gateway search showed the phrase "of God" came up 886 times in the NASB bible. Here are just a few of the many things that belong to God: "Ordinance of God" "Word of God" "Truth of God" "Son of God" "Child of God" "Righteousness of God" "Gospel of God" "Kingdom of God" "Right hand of God" "Work of God" "Glory of God" "Promise of God" "Wrath of God" "Spirit of God" "Forbearance of God" "Bond-servant of God" etc, etc, etc.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search="of God"&version=NASB&searchtype=all&resultspp=500&startnumber=1
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search="of God"&version=NASB&searchtype=all&resultspp=500&startnumber=501

Now of the 886 times of God is used, you say that only in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the temple not really of God? If it is not of God, how can it then be considered Holy?

Matthew 24:15
[ Perilous Times ] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Mark 13:14
“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Search Holy on Bible Gateway, and you will find NEVER is anything that is not of God ever, ever considered Holy. Not once.

Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”

Daniel 8:14
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

Notice the holy place will be properly restored after the abomination?

The bible does not support one thing you are asserting.

From the point of the tribulation, considering the devistation of Jacob's trouble, the only "properly" restoration of the Holy Temple will be in the New Jerusalem.

 

[JLB]

Again, look deeper into the text.

The Greek word for "end" in this passage is telos, and telos is defined in Strong’s Greek Dictionary as: "to set out for a definite point or goal, the point aimed at as a limit" — No. 5056.

This word "end" found in Romans 10:4 could also be translated "goal." A better rendition of this verse in the CJB, which reads, "For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts."

The same Greek word telos is translated "end" in James 5:11: "…you have seen the end [telos] of the Lord." Has The Lord come to an end?

As my other points were not addressed, just consider this:

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The Torah or the Law of Moses is so much more than sacrificing animals.

Is sacrificing animals in a temple righteousness or unrighteousness?

 

[Chopper]

Again, look deeper into the text.

The Greek word for "end" in this passage is telos, and telos is defined in Strong’s Greek Dictionary as: "to set out for a definite point or goal, the point aimed at as a limit" — No. 5056.

This word "end" found in Romans 10:4 could also be translated "goal." A better rendition of this verse in the CJB, which reads, "For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts."

The same Greek word telos is translated "end" in James 5:11: "…you have seen the end [telos] of the Lord." Has The Lord come to an end?

As my other points were not addressed, just consider this:

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The Torah or the Law of Moses is so much more than sacrificing animals.

Ryan, I'm curious as to why you spend so much time referring to the Law of Moses. Of course it is Holy and was very useful in exposing sin, but when the Christ made atonement for our sins and was and is the completion of the Law, we are in a new covenant, the old covenant has passed. This new covenant in Jesus' blood is a new blood covenant. You know that, right?

 

[Ryan]

From the point of the tribulation, considering the devistation of Jacob's trouble, the only "properly" restoration of the Holy Temple will be in the New Jerusalem.

Then why does it say?

Matthew 24:15
[ Perilous Times ] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

This is a pre New Jerusalem event obviously.

 

[JLB]

Then why does it say?

Matthew 24:15
[ Perilous Times ] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

This is a pre New Jerusalem event obviously.

Because it is a description of the place where the Abomination of Desolation will be placed.

The Holy place is the name of the place or room within the Temple.

This defines where it will be.

Is sacrificing animals today, in a temple righteousness or unrighteousness?



JLB

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, I'm curious as to why you spend so much time referring to the Law of Moses. Of course it is Holy and was very useful in exposing sin, but when the Christ made atonement for our sins and was and is the completion of the Law, we are in a new covenant, the old covenant has passed. This new covenant in Jesus' blood is a new blood covenant. You know that, right?

Read the provisions of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. The thing that is new is no longer will our sins be covered and atoned for, but now they "...be remembered no more." So when I refer to the Law of Moses, it was the only guide to live by for a redeemed people. Jesus, taught it, Paul taught it, and it will continue to be observed in the Millenium:

Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 14 and many other passages speak to the Law of Moses not only being taught by Jesus, but being observed as well in the Millenium.

So no, I don't believe in one little bit an end to the Law of Moses. The mystery of lawlessness is one who wants to keep us further away from the Law of Moses.

Daniel 7:25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The mystery is lawlessness is devoid of the Mosaic law. Look it up.

 

[Ryan]

Because it is a description of the place where the Abomination of Desolation will be placed.

The Holy place is the name of the place or room within the Temple.

This defines where it will be.

Is sacrificing animals today, in a temple righteousness or unrighteousness?



JLB

There is nowhere at all in the bible that once, not once that ever referred to something defined as holy, or set apart, that was not of God. That is truth. So to say the abomination of desolation will be in the holy place and not make the connection that it was set apart by God if it was called holy, means God does not oppose the temple being rebuilt.

Exodus and Leviticus which we know is God inspired gave instructions for animal sacrifices. The whole who, what, when, where and why are given. You can take take it up with God in heaven if you disagree with this practice.


Is sacrificing animals today, in a temple righteousness or unrighteousness? If it was a temple of God with the Shekinah Glory of his presence filling the temple and it was done within the provisions of the Law of Moses, then no, absolutely not would it be sinful. Zecharaih 14 and Ezekiel 40 - 48 indicate they will be resumed in the Millenium. I am sorry if it doesn't appeal to our 20th century thoughts and sensibilities of animal sacrifice.

 

[JLB]

There is nowhere at all in the bible that once, not once that ever referred to something defined as holy, or set apart, that was not of God. That is truth. So to say the abomination of desolation will be in the holy place and not make the connection that it was set apart by God if it was called holy, means God does not oppose the temple being rebuilt.

Exodus and Leviticus which we know is God inspired gave instructions for animal sacrifices. The whole who, what, when, where and why are given. You can take take it up with God in heaven if you disagree with this practice.


Is sacrificing animals today, in a temple righteousness or unrighteousness? If it was a temple of God with the Shekinah Glory of his presence filling the temple and it was done within the provisions of the Law of Moses, then no, absolutely not would it be sinful. Zecharaih 14 and Ezekiel 40 - 48 indicate they will be resumed in the Millenium. I am sorry if it doesn't appeal to our 20th century thoughts and sensibilities of animal sacrifice.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2:11


You just proved why the Messianic Movement is such a driving factor in this last days deception, as we approach the time of the end.

Many will believe that the lawless one is the Christ, when he goes to the temple to proclaim himself as God.

Paul warned the Church in this matter of turn away from Christ, back to the law of Moses.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.Galatians 1:6-9, 2:3


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Read the provisions of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. The thing that is new is no longer will our sins be covered and atoned for, but now they "...be remembered no more." So when I refer to the Law of Moses, it was the only guide to live by for a redeemed people. Jesus, taught it, Paul taught it, and it will continue to be observed in the Millenium:

Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 14 and many other passages speak to the Law of Moses not only being taught by Jesus, but being observed as well in the Millenium.

So no, I don't believe in one little bit an end to the Law of Moses. The mystery of lawlessness is one who wants to keep us further away from the Law of Moses.

Daniel 7:25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The mystery is lawlessness is devoid of the Mosaic law. Look it up.

Very good Ryan. I agree with you. I read all the verses that you gave me and you are right. I guess if were to add anything, it would be that I saw "God's Law, which would include the Law of Moses AND the Commands of Jesus Christ. The difference that I see, because of Hebrews 8:12 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away". The new covenant is established by the Lord. It is unlike the former covenant of Exodus because it involves a change in the inner life by writing God's Laws into their minds and hearts. By Jesus' death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit is released to enter our hearts and minds so that We can now obey ALL of God's Law, Moses' and Jesus'.

 

[Chopper]

There is nowhere at all in the bible that once, not once that ever referred to something defined as holy, or set apart, that was not of God. That is truth. So to say the abomination of desolation will be in the holy place and not make the connection that it was set apart by God if it was called holy, means God does not oppose the temple being rebuilt.

Exodus and Leviticus which we know is God inspired gave instructions for animal sacrifices. The whole who, what, when, where and why are given. You can take take it up with God in heaven if you disagree with this practice.


Is sacrificing animals today, in a temple righteousness or unrighteousness? If it was a temple of God with the Shekinah Glory of his presence filling the temple and it was done within the provisions of the Law of Moses, then no, absolutely not would it be sinful. Zecharaih 14 and Ezekiel 40 - 48 indicate they will be resumed in the Millenium. I am sorry if it doesn't appeal to our 20th century thoughts and sensibilities of animal sacrifice.

In reading Zecharaih and Ezekiel I find that these references are to the return of Israel from captivity to the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple. I don't see any reference to the millenium. From my studies, I find no animal sacrifices since the death of the Christ. There is no purpose in the old sacrifices, Christ has shed His blood, the final blood sacrifice. That's how I see it.

 

[Ryan]

Very good Ryan. I agree with you. I read all the verses that you gave me and you are right. I guess if were to add anything, it would be that I saw "God's Law, which would include the Law of Moses AND the Commands of Jesus Christ. The difference that I see, because of Hebrews 8:12 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away". The new covenant is established by the Lord. It is unlike the former covenant of Exodus because it involves a change in the inner life by writing God's Laws into their minds and hearts. By Jesus' death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit is released to enter our hearts and minds so that We can now obey ALL of God's Law, Moses' and Jesus'.

The Father, Son and Spirit are one. Jesus could not preach or say anything against what the Father spoke prior to Israel and through the Kings and Propehets. To do that would be in rebellion against the Father, and Jesus only and always taught in agreement with the Father's will who gave the Law of Moses. Jesus was the Torah made flesh as per John 1.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrew people prior to the destruction of the temple to give them hope that even though there would no longer be a temple, there was still a mediator taking on the role of priesthood in the heavenlies. Namely what was growing old was the Levitical priesthood transferring to Melchizedek.

The mystery of lawlessness is the work that would seek to divide the Jesus from the Word. It is impossible because he is the Word. The farther the devil keeps us from the commandments of God, the happier he is. That is his whole purpose, is to keep us as far away from the commandments of God as possible. Hence, the lawless one one who is devoid of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Ryan]

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2:11


You just proved why the Messianic Movement is such a driving factor in this last days deception, as we approach the time of the end.

Many will believe that the lawless one is the Christ, when he goes to the temple to proclaim himself as God.

Paul warned the Church in this matter of turn away from Christ, back to the law of Moses.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.Galatians 1:6-9, 2:3


JLB

God in his foreknowledge knew his scriptures could possibly be distorted and twisted to our destruction as Peter said. So this is why he gave us Romans 7:7 because he knew people would have the same believe you have JLB.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Ryan]

In reading Zecharaih and Ezekiel I find that these references are to the return of Israel from captivity to the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple. I don't see any reference to the millenium. From my studies, I find no animal sacrifices since the death of the Christ. There is no purpose in the old sacrifices, Christ has shed His blood, the final blood sacrifice. That's how I see it.

You are a Berean living in the Diaspora. You go 3 times a year to Jerusalem for the annual feasts of the Lord. A certain pharisee named Paul has come to your area preaching Jesus crucified and resurrected. Being the noble man that you are, you search the scriptures to determine if what he said is true. I am sure they came across passages such as Isaiah 53 to testify of the Risen King who bore our sins and transgressions. You became a believer in Jesus as you were more noble than the rest. Now, only having the scriptures from the Septuagint, Paul tells you that no longer is one to follow the Law of Moses and it has come to its end. Being the Berean that you are, find one passage in the Septuagint, or the OT that would testify and bare witness to the testimony of Paul and the end of the Law of Moses or the Torah. Where is that passage please?

 

[JLB]

God in his foreknowledge knew his scriptures could possibly be distorted and twisted to our destruction as Peter said. So this is why he gave us Romans 7:7 because he knew people would have the same believe you have JLB.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

For all the Berean's in the house, here is the scripture -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:31-32

The old covenant became obsolete when these words were spoken out of the mouth of Jeremiah, by God.

It vanished away at the Cross.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." Romans 10:1-5

Those that seek to establish their own righteousness will build another Temple.

Men who follow Judaism continue to reject the Messiah.

The will be granted one that they will accept.

I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. John 5:43


JLB

 

[Ryan]

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2:11


You just proved why the Messianic Movement is such a driving factor in this last days deception, as we approach the time of the end.

Many will believe that the lawless one is the Christ, when he goes to the temple to proclaim himself as God.

Paul warned the Church in this matter of turn away from Christ, back to the law of Moses.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.Galatians 1:6-9, 2:3


JLB

The question and the whole point of the argument in Galatia and elsewhere is in Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Those were the troublemakers. It was never a question whether circumcision was a commandment, but whether one had to be circumcised to merit their salvation. The same idea or principle is people who teach that one has to be baptized to be saved. Our salvation by baptism arguments were the same as their circumcision arguments. A different gospel was one that was in contrary to the Law of Moses. How confusing and illogical would it be for those in the Diaspora living out the Law of Moses to all of a sudden be told what they were following, they would now be accursed(?). Silly how if that was true, the scriptures taught them blessings for following the Law, and curses for disobeying the Law. But all of a sudden at the time of the cross, they would now be cursed for following it. Is that what you are really saying? That doesn't sound like a kind, consistent Father to me.

 

[Chopper]

I have showed you where the error is in your commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2. I gave you 886, 80 and 9 times the reasons why your interpretation of this is incorrect. What lawlessness means is actually Torahlessness. True story. Get out your concordance and look up G457, G458 and G459. What does it say?

Maybe Chopper can help us out here?

I wonder if you two are speaking of two events. This is how I see your posts; Ryan is speaking about the abomination of desolation and Temple of 70AD and JLB is speaking about a restored temple during the tribulation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Chopper]

The question and the whole point of the argument in Galatia and elsewhere is in Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Those were the troublemakers. It was never a question whether circumcision was a commandment, but whether one had to be circumcised to merit their salvation. The same idea or principle is people who teach that one has to be baptized to be saved. Our salvation by baptism arguments were the same as their circumcision arguments. A different gospel was one that was in contrary to the Law of Moses. How confusing and illogical would it be for those in the Diaspora living out the Law of Moses to all of a sudden be told what they were following, they would now be accursed(?). Silly how if that was true, the scriptures taught them blessings for following the Law, and curses for disobeying the Law. But all of a sudden at the time of the cross, they would now be cursed for following it. Is that what you are really saying? That doesn't sound like a kind, consistent Father to me.

Did not the focus of Salvation change from being righteous from following Moses law to righteousness being offered to the Jew, not on following the Law entirely, but receiving Jesus as their Messiah and realizing His Blood took away their sins? Up to that point, animal sacrifices were beneficial, but now it was Christ's blood sacrifice that they were to receive. As a Christian, I see Moses Law very important for me to learn and apply to my life. Moses Law is not a requirement for my Salvation, receiving Christ's blood sacrifice is. Now, I have adopted Moses Law and Christ's commands as my way of life because I don't think that the Holy Spirit, Who is in charge of my comings and goings will throw away Moses Law and only stick to Christ's commands. They both are included in how I'm supposed to walk "in the Spirit".