The Mystery of Lawlessness.

[jasoncran]

So you would like a warning? How about: You have worshiped Jesus in the image of his death, and you faithfully wash your sins in his blood, but it is time to rise from your slumber. For Christ has come, and we shall worship Him in the image of His resurrection.

I like that.

write those so i can pronounce them OK?

shmool( schmuel) and shimon as in shimon perez

that would be a good name for chopper...

 

[JLB]

So you would like a warning? How about: You have worshiped Jesus in the image of his death, and you faithfully wash your sins in his blood, but it is time to rise from your slumber. For Christ has come, and we shall worship Him in the image of His resurrection.

For Christ has come?

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

His Coming shall be at the end of the age, when He Comes to gather His people at the resurrection of the dead.

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead is past?


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The mystery of lawlessness is, if you reject the law, then what takes it's place?

 

[jasoncran]

The mystery of lawlessness is, if you reject the law, then what takes it's place?

atheism and whatever evil code of morals that men choose. ie its ok if no one gets hurt.

 

[Knotical]

atheism and whatever evil code of morals that men choose. ie its ok if no one gets hurt.

Aren't you referring to Anarchy? Atheism just means they don't believe in a god, not that they don't believe in laws or rules.

 

[jasoncran]

an atheist position is underminded by that logically they cant believe in any universal moral truth since there is no way a natural explanation of the universe would allow for morality.

 

[Knotical]

an atheist position is underminded by that logically they cant believe in any universal moral truth since there is no way a natural explanation of the universe would allow for morality.

So, Atheism is the foundation of Anarchy?

 

[jasoncran]

no, evil men are. atheism if thought and done logically would and can lead to that but most athiests no that wont work.

but I quote a famous one

I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently I assumed that it had none and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption…. Those who detect no meaning in the world generally do so because, for one reason or another, it suits their books that the world should be meaningless. … For myself as, no doubt, for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was …liberation from … a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom…. There was one admirably simple method in our political and erotic revolt: We could deny that the world had any meaning whatsoever. Similar tactics had been adopted during the eighteenth century and for the same reasons. - Aldous Huxley

. there are some Christians who would want a form of communal type living.

 

[Sinthesis]

atheism and whatever evil code of morals that men choose. ie its ok if no one gets hurt.

Atheism doesn't necessarily follow. Even atheists follow some moral code, provided they are not sociopaths. Getting them to acknowledge this is the first step to showing them God exists. Of course plenty of people get swept up believing in false gods and whatever pseudo-morality those entail. Who decides what hurts?

When it comes to this specific biblical mystery of lawlessness, I believe the scripture is referring to an absence of Moses' law among the people of God. This creates a void in the heart that will be filled. Prior to Moses, the ways of Egypt and Canaan infiltrated the heart and eventually resulted in transgression. Beyond Moses, for the Christian the void is filled by the Holy Spirit. This spiritual guidance allows Christians to strive for justice without being bound in legalism.

What of others? They could return to Moses' law, even modify it by jots and tittles. They could adopt the foreign laws of any number of other cultures, thus losing their previous identity. Rejecting all restraint they could default to the law-of-the-jungle, becoming as beasts(sociopaths). Of course the law-of-the-jungle isn't a law at all. It is a spirit which does as it will, unencumbered by any set rules beyond 'might makes right'.

 

[Deborah13]

Atheism doesn't necessarily follow. Even atheists follow some moral code, provided they are not sociopaths. Getting them to acknowledge this is the first step to showing them God exists. Of course plenty of people get swept up believing in false gods and whatever pseudo-morality those entail. Who decides what hurts?

When it comes to this specific biblical mystery of lawlessness, I believe the scripture is referring to an absence of Moses' law among the people of God. This creates a void in the heart that will be filled. Prior to Moses, the ways of Egypt and Canaan infiltrated the heart and eventually resulted in transgression. Beyond Moses, for the Christian the void is filled by the Holy Spirit. This spiritual guidance allows Christians to strive for justice without being bound in legalism.

Do you realize with the above paragraph, how many questions you answered, how many thread post you affirmed or debunked, in a 100 words or less?

What of others? They could return to Moses' law, even modify it by jots and tittles. They could adopt the foreign laws of any number of other cultures, thus losing their previous identity. Rejecting all restraint they could default to the law-of-the-jungle, becoming as beasts(sociopaths). Of course the law-of-the-jungle isn't a law at all. It is a spirit which does as it will, unencumbered by any set rules beyond 'might makes right'.

 

[JLB]

The Pharisee's that were blameless according to the law of Moses, like Paul, persecuted and plotted to murder, like Paul, The Christ.

We're these who were followers of the law of Moses, yet murdered Christ, somehow considered righteous?

It just doesn't get anymore antichrist that to reject and murder the Christ.

This is the Mystery of Lawlessness.

Plain and simple.

JLB

 

[jasoncran]

synthesis I realize that but each 'code' is different.

 

[Ryan]

The Pharisee's that were blameless according to the law of Moses, like Paul, persecuted and plotted to murder, like Paul, The Christ.

We're these who were followers of the law of Moses, yet murdered Christ, somehow considered righteous?

It just doesn't get anymore antichrist that to reject and murder the Christ.

This is the Mystery of Lawlessness.

Plain and simple.

JLB

I don't think you read post #67. Here it is again:

Really, that isn't what the bible says. The Law of Moses is the standard of righteousness set by God.
Deuteronomy 4:8
Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
Deuteronomy 6:25
It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.
Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
God does not change:
Malachi 3:6
“For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

And just one more verse to ensure your theory is completely debunked.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Misrepresenting the Word of God is not a good thing. Many a war and conflict has begun by ideas like yours.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:15
even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 10:17
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16
We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[JLB]

I don't think you read post #67. Here it is again:



And just one more verse to ensure your theory is completely debunked.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Misrepresenting the Word of God is not a good thing. Many a war and conflict has begun by ideas like yours.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:15
even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 10:17
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16
We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The Law of Moses is not sin, and I never said it was.

The Law was added, until the Seed should come.

The Law of Moses portrayed for us the righteous statutes and commandments and laws that were from the beginning, as Abraham walked with God and obeyed His Voice and kept His Laws, 430 years before the law of Moses.

You misrepresent what I have said.

You should go back and read my post's on this subject and copy and paste the specific quotes from them that you disagree with, and let's discuss them from God's word.

Love the Lord and His people were from the garden of Eden and did not originate with the law of Moses.

Really, that isn't what the bible says. The Law of Moses is the standard of righteousness set by God.
Deuteronomy 4:8
Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
Deuteronomy 6:25
It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.
Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
God does not change:
Malachi 3:6
“For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

.

All these scriptures are from the Old Testament.

God declared a New Covenant, which made The Old obsolete. The Old Covenant vanished away at the cross.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

However, all the righteous laws that Abraham walked in, and were from the beginning, are for us to walk in today.

We have been grafted in to the Covenant that God made with Abraham, not the law of Moses.

We are to walk with God today, and obey His Voice and keep His laws as Abraham did.

I believe that we need to keep the Ten Commandments, but more importantly we need to hear and obey His Voice and be led by His Spirit.

As the scriptures teach us of Abraham -

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. Genesis 12:1-2

What good would it have done for Abraham to keep the Sabbath, but never get out of his country and leave his family and go to land land that God would show him

He would keep the Sabbath law, but there never would have been a Messiah that came from him, as he would not have been in the place where God sent him, not doing the things that God had from him to do, but he would have kept the Sabbath, and maybe have not stolen or been a liar or adulterer, however he would have never accomplished the things God had intended, nor would have lived the life of faith for which he was commended.

The law is not of faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

I wonder why I never hear about your faith and it's importance to God.

A life of faith, not just the initial faith for salvation.

And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:32-35


Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6

Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Galatians 3:12

... for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

JLB

 

[Ryan]

The Pharisee's that were blameless according to the law of Moses, like Paul, persecuted and plotted to murder, like Paul, The Christ.

7 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem,
2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.
3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;
4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
5 The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?”
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus properly taught the law. He did not come to properly teach his commandments, then to give rise to a whole new way of life. That is absurd.

John 10:30

I and the Father are one.”

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

Jesus could not teach against the Law of Moses BECAUSE HE GAVE IT TO MOSES!!! He could not contradict himself...ever.

I believe that we need to keep the Ten Commandments, but more importantly we need to hear and obey His Voice and be led by His Spirit.
.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

What would vanish and wax away was the old economy of the sins being covered and atoned for, but in the New Covenant the sins would now be remembered no more and the Law of Moses being written upon our hearts. Re-read Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8

 

[Ryan]

The Law of Moses is not sin, and I never said it was.

Sure you did. Taken from post #28

The return to the law of Moses, which is trying trying to establish your own righteousness, is in fact lawlessness.

Really? So me, being a believer in Jesus who celebrates Shabbat, Passover, Pentecost, uses the name of Yahweh, abstains from food offered to idols (this just happened with a Hindu neighbour), or eats a biblical diet is now being lawless? Help me understand please.

 

[JLB]

Sure you did. Taken from post #28


Really? So me, being a believer in Jesus who celebrates Shabbat, Passover, Pentecost, uses the name of Yahweh, abstains from food offered to idols (this just happened with a Hindu neighbour), or eats a biblical diet is now being lawless? Help me understand please.

Reading your post's it is obvious you are having trouble understanding what you read, then you misapply it to me.

Here it is again -

The return to the law of Moses, which is trying trying to establish your own righteousness, is in fact lawlessness.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage) Galatians 2:1-3


Paul did not go to Jerusalem for 3 years, then after that he did not go for 14 years.

How could Paul keep Moses law which requires the return to Jerusalem to keep the feast's, if he didn't go for 14 years?

Remember, the temple was still standing.

Please address my post # 134 and address the things in it you don't agree with.



JLB

 

[Ryan]

The return to the law of Moses, which is trying trying to establish your own righteousness, is in fact lawlessness.

Your first sentence is incorrect, and the entire rest of your thoughts and premise crumble. Re-read the passages what I posted earlier:

The Law of Moses is the standard of righteousness set by God.

Deuteronomy 4:8
Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

Deuteronomy 6:25
It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
You cannot argue with God's truth. This is His Words, not mine.

 

[Ryan]

Paul did not go to Jerusalem for 3 years, then after that he did not go for 14 years.

How could Paul keep Moses law which requires the return to Jerusalem to keep the feast's, if he didn't go for 14 years?

Remember, the temple was still standing.

Jesus taught against the legalism you are presenting that was prevalent in his day by the teachings of the pharisees and sadduccees.

Hear his words:

Mark 3:4
And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

What trumped what? Paul going out to the Diaspora and the Roman community to preach Jesus crucified and resurrected, or disrupting his ministry and spending an awful lot of time and money to get back to Jerusalem for the Feasts which are considered Sabbath's? What was Paul doing? Saving souls. Is that not good?

 

[reba]

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself.
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

ToS 2.4
To all members :
Guys this is not a personal battle ground please keep the ToS in mind as you post. When we choose to join this site we all agree to abide by the ToS.
Knowing it is easier said then done i keep reminding you.... you should have it in your hearts by now. We are children of the same King.