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The Mystery of Lawlessness.

jasoncran said:
synthesis I realize that but each 'code' is different.
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Yet every code is the same in that they are all insufficient. They are written down, so they are finite and can't cover all possibilities, thus their intent can be subverted. This is what allows a difference between what is legal, and what is justified as righteous. This is what allowed the Pharisees to stay within the law even while transgressing the law's purpose.

What Jesus does is free us from the bindings of the law that we may pursue the law's purpose under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, being God, is infinite, thus for every possible situation righteous guidance is made available to the believer. In this sense, as Christians we are lawless. Surely it must seem a mystery how lawless Christians could behave more righteously than lawful Pharisee hypocrites. Remove any attempt to follow the law from those hypocrites, and they would be free from the bindings of the law to pursue their own purposes as led by any foul spirit. This is the lawlessness that reveals law's beauty, while Christianity is the lawlessness that illuminates law's limitations.
 
jasoncran said:
I wasn't talking about that, each atheist's code of morals.
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Each atheist's code of morals can differ because they are not anchored to anything actually substantial. Atheists deny that anything is of substance.

Hbr 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
Ryan said -

The Law of Moses is the standard of righteousness set by God.
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Abraham was declared righteous before the law.

During the time of the law of Moses, it was righteous.

BUT NOW!

Read the words of scripture for yourself.

But NOW!

That was then, this is now!

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:21


The law of Moses is not the standard of righteousness, faith in Christ is the standard of righteousness.


edited


JLB
 
JLB said:
Abraham was declared righteous before the law.

During the time of the law of Moses, it was righteous.

BUT NOW!

Read the words of scripture for yourself.

But NOW!

That was then, this is now!

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:21


The law of Moses is not the standard of righteousness, faith in Christ is the standard of righteousness.


edited


JLB
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And Paul makes it very clear through his discourse that those who may be confusing what he is saying about works without faith, and works with faith, he says in verse 31.


31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Psalm 119:142
142 Your righteousness is an everlasting [olam, meaning forever, H5769] righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Has forever passed yet?

Works without saving faith is useless, garbage, ptooey.

Righteousness is testified to by the law, but is only obtained through faith. Justification and righteousness come through Yeshua, the atoning sacrifice for our sins. The law does not have a function in the attainment of justification and righteousness. Paul said in Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” In verse 31, Paul asks, “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” Thomas McComiskey wrote,

The phrase apart from the law seems to teach that the law has been nullified as a principle of obedience because the righteousness of God is now obtainable by faith. This view…is rendered difficult by the statement of verse 31…The solution…can be [grasped] when the law is understood to be honored by the righteousness of faith, to be fulfilled by that faith, and thus silenced in its condemning function because of the righteousness obtained through faith. The principle of law cannot give such righteousness; it is the standard of righteousness. When the standard is broken, it condemns because it is law. But the law does not change human hearts. If hearts are to be conformed to the law, the change will be accomplished not by law, but by the revolutionary act of faith in [Messiah] which imparts new motivation and radical observance.(1)

(1)Thomas E. McComiskey, The Covenants of Promise (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1985), pp. 106-107.
 
Ryan said:
And Paul makes it very clear through his discourse that those who may be confusing what he is saying about works without faith, and works with faith, he says in verse 31.


31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Psalm 119:142
142 Your righteousness is an everlasting [olam, meaning forever, H5769] righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Has forever passed yet?

Works without saving faith is useless, garbage, ptooey.

Righteousness is testified to by the law, but is only obtained through faith. Justification and righteousness come through Yeshua, the atoning sacrifice for our sins. The law does not have a function in the attainment of justification and righteousness. Paul said in Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” In verse 31, Paul asks, “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” Thomas McComiskey wrote,

The phrase apart from the law seems to teach that the law has been nullified as a principle of obedience because the righteousness of God is now obtainable by faith. This view…is rendered difficult by the statement of verse 31…The solution…can be [grasped] when the law is understood to be honored by the righteousness of faith, to be fulfilled by that faith, and thus silenced in its condemning function because of the righteousness obtained through faith. The principle of law cannot give such righteousness; it is the standard of righteousness. When the standard is broken, it condemns because it is law. But the law does not change human hearts. If hearts are to be conformed to the law, the change will be accomplished not by law, but by the revolutionary act of faith in [Messiah] which imparts new motivation and radical observance.(1)

(1)Thomas E. McComiskey, The Covenants of Promise (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1985), pp. 106-107.
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Your statement that the Law of Moses is the standard of righteousness is clearly false.

You completely ignore the plain and clear words of Paul.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. Romans 3:21

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28


APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW!

The righteousness of God, APART FROM THE LAW!

We are not under the law.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18


Apart from the law!

Not under the law!

The nail in the coffin of your doctrine that says the law of Moses is the standard of righteousness.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:3-4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness!

It doesn't get any clearer than that!

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness!


JLB



 
2 Timothy 3
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The sacred writings were the OT at the time, and the only writings at the time. If one uses the OT as something negative, or a not now then that idea is contrary to verse 16 when all Scripture, not some, but all is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness. No scriptures carry any less, or more weight to it than any other to teach us about relationships, God, righteous living, forgiveness, love, etc, etc. Leviticus is no less important then Acts. Ecclesiastes is no more greater or less then 1 John. Song of Solomons is on par with Jude.

It is later said in 2 Timothy 4 that ears would want to hear their ears getting tickled and hear teachings to their own desires. 1 of those teachings I can think off right now are teachings known as hyper grace. Kinda like what you are speaking of JLB. Now that we are saved, lets just stand around and argue eschatology all day long and wait till we are taken away and live our life however we want.

We have been here, done that before JLB. Not repeating the same things over and over to the same person.

It behooves me to think God would call his people of Israel back to the Law of Moses for hundreds of years when they disobeyed and rebelled, to only make a New Covenant that tells them they no longer have to follow what God always called them back to return to.
 
Ryan said:
2 Timothy 3
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The sacred writings were the OT at the time, and the only writings at the time. If one uses the OT as something negative, or a not now then that idea is contrary to verse 16 when all Scripture, not some, but all is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness. No scriptures carry any less, or more weight to it than any other to teach us about relationships, God, righteous living, forgiveness, love, etc, etc. Leviticus is no less important then Acts. Ecclesiastes is no more greater or less then 1 John. Song of Solomons is on par with Jude.

It is later said in 2 Timothy 4 that ears would want to hear their ears getting tickled and hear teachings to their own desires. 1 of those teachings I can think off right now are teachings known as hyper grace. Kinda like what you are speaking of JLB. Now that we are saved, lets just stand around and argue eschatology all day long and wait till we are taken away and live our life however we want.

We have been here, done that before JLB. Not repeating the same things over and over to the same person.

It behooves me to think God would call his people of Israel back to the Law of Moses for hundreds of years when they disobeyed and rebelled, to only make a New Covenant that tells them they no longer have to follow what God always called them back to return to.
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For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:3-4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness!

It doesn't get any clearer than that!


JLB
 
Sure doesn't get any clearer.

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Just remember end is the word telos, which has the meaning of goal. Bad translation of Romans 10:4. Look it up.

Time to say goodbye (again). Not profitable for either of us I reckon.
 
Ryan said:
Sure doesn't get any clearer.

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Just remember end is the word telos, which has the meaning of goal. Bad translation of Romans 10:4. Look it up.

Time to say goodbye (again). Not profitable for either of us I reckon.
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If you would honestly address the words of all the many scriptures I have posted, rather than stretching the meanings of words, and "explaining" what this word and that word really mean, you might just realize that,

without faith, it is impossible to please God.

That Abraham walked with God in righteousness before there ever was a Moses or the law was added.

So did Noah, and Enoch and Job.

The Seed has come and fulfilled the law.

Christ has redeemed those who were under the law.

Why would Christ redeem people who were under the law, only to have them turn back to the law?


JLB
 
Chopper said:
From the point of the tribulation, considering the devistation of Jacob's trouble, the only "properly" restoration of the Holy Temple will be in the New Jerusalem.
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the New Jerusalem is the Church --the body of Christ which has many members :cross
 
ezra said:
the New Jerusalem is the Church --the body of Christ which has many members :cross
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Thank you ezra, You are right, the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem. I wonder about that, how believers, called the Bride make up the City. Do you have any suggestions?
 
Chopper said:
Thank you ezra, You are right, the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem. I wonder about that, how believers, called the Bride make up the City. Do you have any suggestions?
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its a metaphor, the apostles are the walls, Christ is the foundation.
 
Chopper said:
Thank you ezra, You are right, the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem. I wonder about that, how believers, called the Bride make up the City. Do you have any suggestions?
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A City is One, yet many houses.

We are a "city" set on a hill.


JLB
 
jasoncran said:
its a metaphor, the apostles are the walls, Christ is the foundation.
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12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:12-14

It is interesting that the gates were named after the twelve tribes even though they came before the Apostles, yet the 12 Apostles are the foundation of the wall itself.


It seems like the Twelve tribes would be the foundation of the walls, since they came first.

Of course it is symbolic, but never the less...


JLB
 
We are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone.


JLB
 
Chopper said:
Thank you ezra, You are right, the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem. I wonder about that, how believers, called the Bride make up the City. Do you have any suggestions?
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Christ is the Shepard
Christ is the Lamb
He is the Cornerstone
The lily of the Valley
The Bright and Morning Star
the Root
The Living Water
The Rock

ETC
 
JLB said:
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:12-14

It is interesting that the gates were named after the twelve tribes even though they came before the Apostles, yet the 12 Apostles are the foundation of the wall itself.


It seems like the Twelve tribes would be the foundation of the walls, since they came first.

Of course it is symbolic, but never the less...


JLB
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I hear what you're saying. Jason said that Christ is the foundation. It is funny (probably not a good word) that the Apostles are the foundations of the twelve walls. So are the twelve Tribes the walls or the gates?
 
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