The New Birth

[biblecatholic]

So this is a catholic doctrine then? One can choose to give eternal life to another or choose to receive it themselves by the act of baptism?

It's a biblical and Catholic doctrine the two go together. You just happen to disagree with the interpretation.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Click this link for a BUNCH of great articles on this subject:
http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?query=baptism
;-)

 

[mutzrein]

So this is a catholic doctrine then? One can choose to give eternal life to another or choose to receive it themselves by the act of baptism?

It's a biblical and Catholic doctrine the two go together. You just happen to disagree with the interpretation.

You are right I disagree. But it is not just a matter of 'happening'. It is a matter of knowledge - and this knowledge is not based on the traditions of man but on revelation of the Spirit of God which dwells within me.

 

[mutzrein]

BTW - you Catholic guys seem to disagree too.

 

[biblecatholic]

You are right I disagree. But it is not just a matter of 'happening'. It is a matter of knowledge - and this knowledge is not based on the traditions of man but on revelation of the Spirit of God which dwells within me.

And the Holy Spirit dwells within me. It's a matter of interpretation. All who have the "spirit" are not infallible interpreters. What makes your personal interpretation of the scriptures carry more weight that the personal interpretations of other individual believers or churches?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....All who have the "spirit" are not infallible interpreters. What makes your personal interpretation of the scriptures carry more weight that the personal interpretations of other individual believers or churches?

You are correct. This verse was only spoken to the apostles, not all the disciples:

John 16:13: "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

That gift of the Spirit is given to the apostles and their successors through the laying on of hands, as it was given to the bishop Timothy:

1 Timothy 4:14: "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery."

We all have DIFFERENT gifts. As far as personal interpretation of the scriptures goes, we should heed this warning:

2 Peter 1:20: "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation

 

[JayR]

All believers have the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of truth and the Spirit of God are the same thing. Jesus said, "If you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed, and you WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, and the truth will SET YOU FREE." Christ promises the truth to His people who continue in His word. Someone here is teaching lies, and someone is teaching the truth. Someone here belongs to Christ, and someone doesn't belong to Christ. Someone is a false teacher, and someone is not a false teacher.

 

[JayR]

The question is, how do we indentify who is true and who is not? I'm convinced that Catholics are decieved for the blatant transgressions of the law of Christ that they display in the simplest everyday ways. You call your ministers "father" when Christ explicitly teaches not to do that. You create idols to represent God when His word explicitly teaches not to do that. You pray to dead people which is just weird and divinize the mother of Jesus as if she wasn't a sinner like the rest of us.

"Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

All believers have the Spirit of truth......

On one level I would agree. But for the formulation of doctrine? No. That is why Jesus established a Church, chose apostles and gave those apostles the mandate to teach:

Matt 28: 19-20: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...."

Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The heretical protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The list of popes can be traced back to Peter himself, the first pope. Here is a list: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm


Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

 

[JayR]

True Christians have the Spirit of Truth and therefore have the ability to discern truth from lies. That's why Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice, and if someone else calls to them, they will run away. The apostles aren't the only ones who have the ability to teach, and God reveals His doctrine to people when He pleases. God has given me revelations of doctrine, and I don't specifically have the gift of teaching as far as I know. What do you think the gift of prophecy is?

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge..."

The gift of prophecy isn't necessarily a prediction of what is to come. The gift of prophecy is understanding God's word in truth and proclaiming the word of God in truth as it was written and according to what it truly is saying. When you do this, it is as if you recieve a word from God, and proclaim it to His people, as the prophets of old did. Thus, you are prophesying. The apostles aren't the only ones who can recieve this gift.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Here is an article you might find interesting:
Of Water and the Spirit
The New Birth Is Not by Faith Alone
By Alex Jones
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012fea5.asp

Rev. Alex Jones was pastor of the pentecostal Maranatha Christian Church in Detroit, Michigan. He and members of his congregation voted to enter the Catholic Church, and they are now ALL Catholics. These are some of his insights on this thread topic.

 

[JayR]

The gates of hell have slaughtered the catholic church. That's why the church is full of ministers who molest children. Call it a slur if you like, but it's true. That's also why the church is full of idolatry and heresy, teaching traditions of men as the commandments of God, and making void the commandments of God.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The gates of hell have slaughtered the catholic church. That's why the church is full of ministers who molest children. Call it a slur if you like, but it's true. That's also why the church is full of idolatry and heresy, teaching traditions of men as the commandments of God, and making void the commandments of God.

Aw, you see? You went off the deep end now.
Now I can't talk to you for while until you reset your gaskets.

Peace To You

Peace To You

 

[JayR]

The church isn't an established religion or a particular denomination or a building with a particular name on the sign in the front. The church is a body of believers born by the Spirit of God, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

 

[JayR]

I didn't go off any end. I stated a fact and am completely calm and in a state of peace by the grace of God.

 

[GraceBwithU]

The gates of hell have slaughtered the catholic church. That's why the church is full of ministers who molest children. Call it a slur if you like, but it's true. That's also why the church is full of idolatry and heresy, teaching traditions of men as the commandments of God, and making void the commandments of God.

Aw, you see? You went off the deep end now.
Now I can't talk to you for while until you reset your gaskets.

Peace To You

Peace To You

THank you for such large photo of your most recently elected god.

Quite frankly, I have defended the Catholic church many times...trying not to judge. But you have openned my eyes to what the Catholic church of today represents.

 

[mutzrein]

He is not the most recently elected. This one is dead.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

..THank you for such large photo of your most recently elected god...

If you have defended the Catholic Church before, then you know that we do not believe the pope is a god. That is an unfair statement, and you know it. But, to show that I'm a nice guy, perhaps you'll like this pic better:

The Pope and Billy Graham:

Speaking on the April 2 edition of CNN's Larry King Live program Dr. Billy Graham said that that Pope John Paul II was the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world in the last 100 years.
Source: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleS ... iezel.aspx

 

[GraceBwithU]

..THank you for such large photo of your most recently elected god...

If you have defended the Catholic Church before, then you know that we do not believe the pope is a god. That is an unfair statement, and you know it. But, to show that I'm a nice guy, perhaps you'll lile this pic better:

The Pope and Billy Graham:

Speaking on the April 2 edition of CNN's Larry King Live program Dr. Billy Graham said that that Pope John Paul II was the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world in the last 100 years.
Source: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleS ... iezel.aspx

I know you don't believe that I was being sarcastic...sorry. But you do give him more authority over scripture than any man deserves.

This says very little. This is politics, (on both sides)...not religion... and should probably be better discussed in another thread. I'm sure we shall have the opportunity to do so.
God bless.

 

[biblecatholic]

The question is, how do we indentify who is true and who is not? I'm convinced that Catholics are decieved for the blatant transgressions of the law of Christ that they display in the simplest everyday ways. You call your ministers "father" when Christ explicitly teaches not to do that. You create idols to represent God when His word explicitly teaches not to do that. You pray to dead people which is just weird and divinize the mother of Jesus as if she wasn't a sinner like the rest of us.

"Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son."

All you state is your personal interpretation. You have a problem with the pope which is funny because you have made yourself your own pope. Your "freedom" in your private interpretation is more power than any pope has ever had. Do I need to give all the scriptures that show your wrong about "call no man father"?

Talk is cheap you say you believe in Christ shouldn't your actions show it?